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SquadronROE posted:I have to wonder if this is going to be continuing or if there's going to be some sort of influence to depress wages again. Maybe the push to get more people in on visas will make competition for devs less? Interestingly, it might get worse before it gets better, because several big ones just settled a case alleging they were colluding to keep salaries down or at least equal between them: http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2015/01/16/377614477/tech-giants-will-pay-415-million-to-settle-employees-lawsuit
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Aug 17, 2015 21:20
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SquadronROE posted:I have to wonder if this is going to be continuing or if there's going to be some sort of influence to depress wages again. Maybe the push to get more people in on visas will make competition for devs less? Radbot posted:Considering that the every Valley firm endeavors to keep people on-campus as much as possible, either by hook (Google) or crook (Amazon), I'm curious to understand why you think that helps develop social capital "on their own time" (which they have none of).
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Aug 17, 2015 21:23
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Radbot posted:Considering that the every Valley firm endeavors to keep people on-campus as much as possible, either by hook (Google) or crook (Amazon), I'm curious to understand why you think that helps develop social capital "on their own time" (which they have none of). "own time": Waiting at the private bus stop and chatting up anyone else. You can't do that if you live on campus, in a solely company town. You should probably go out drinking more in SF to see what I'm talking about.
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Aug 17, 2015 21:25
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Cicero posted:Starting a few years ago I think you started seeing more and more college students picking CS, at least partially because of the big salaries you hear about. So there may just be a time lag here before a big flood of new CS grads get on the market. I've only ever been through the hiring process for principal engineers and senior engineers, so I only know it's super hard to find candidates that are good. A glut of recent CS grads won't solve that, because it takes time and experience to be a good engineer.
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Aug 17, 2015 21:38
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SquadronROE posted:When I brought up Unionization to my friends, they didn't object to it because they felt like they could achieve more on their own. They mostly objected to it because they didn't feel like they were underpaid or overworked. Well, if they're okay with it, is it really a problem? I mean I can think of quite a few professions that could unionize before this. Eskaton fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Aug 17, 2015 |
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Aug 17, 2015 22:44
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SquadronROE posted:I've only ever been through the hiring process for principal engineers and senior engineers, so I only know it's super hard to find candidates that are good. A glut of recent CS grads won't solve that, because it takes time and experience to be a good engineer. Eskaton posted:Well, if they're okay with it, is it really a problem?
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Aug 17, 2015 22:56
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SquadronROE posted:I've only ever been through the hiring process for principal engineers and senior engineers, so I only know it's super hard to find candidates that are good. A glut of recent CS grads won't solve that, because it takes time and experience to be a good engineer. Also a minimum of two years experience under a PE before you're allowed to sit for the PE exam in California.
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Aug 17, 2015 23:01
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Cicero posted:We were talking about how salaries even for brand new engineers seem unreasonably high, though. Even if high cost of living areas, there are very few professional careers that will pay well into six figures for new college grads, I think. Those are fair points. I'm pretty pro-union, but I'd have a hard time articulating how it would help me (except in setting standards for pay/hours/benefits, which I personally wouldn't benefit from). H.P. Hovercraft posted:Also a minimum of two years experience under a PE before you're allowed to sit for the PE exam in California. There's an exam for software engineers?
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Aug 17, 2015 23:05
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SquadronROE posted:
Yes. https://cdn.ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/SWE-Apr-2013.pdf
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Aug 17, 2015 23:17
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There is but AFAIK almost nobody cares, mostly I hear about it when real engineers complain that software engineers are not, in fact, real engineers.
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Aug 17, 2015 23:22
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Cicero posted:There is but AFAIK almost nobody cares, mostly I hear about it when real engineers complain that software engineers are not, in fact, real engineers. Ah, that one. I've read through that before. Yeah I doubt that anyone will be taking that seriously anytime soon.
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Aug 17, 2015 23:25
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If you're taking the PE and aren't a civil, what are you doing?
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Aug 17, 2015 23:26
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Eskaton posted:If you're taking the PE and aren't a civil, what are you doing? Principal engineer is a title we use to denote a high-level software engineer. So generally doing things like software architecture. I'm not doing anything like that, I'm just involved in the hiring process.
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Aug 17, 2015 23:28
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SquadronROE posted:Principal engineer is a title we use to denote a high-level software engineer. So generally doing things like software architecture. I'm not doing anything like that, I'm just involved in the hiring process. PE stands for professional engineer, it's a license or title depending on branch. As a chemical it has almost no value to me except I work for gubmint so I have to have it for promotion/$. The test was not fun thank God it was like ten years ago and I've stopped having college-esque nightmares.
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Aug 17, 2015 23:31
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Zachack posted:PE stands for professional engineer, it's a license or title depending on branch. As a chemical it has almost no value to me except I work for gubmint so I have to have it for promotion/$. Oh, I'm not taking that exam at all. Not sure where that confusion came from.
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Aug 17, 2015 23:32
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SquadronROE posted:Principal engineer is a title we use to denote a high-level software engineer. So generally doing things like software architecture. I'm not doing anything like that, I'm just involved in the hiring process. In actual engineering, the Principal is the licensed engineer who has ownership of the firm. 
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Aug 17, 2015 23:34
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:In actual engineering, the Principal is the licensed engineer who has ownership of the firm. Hah! Gotta love how titles are just meaningless when you go to tech sector. Like "Technology Evangelist".
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Aug 17, 2015 23:37
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SquadronROE posted:Hah! Gotta love how titles are just meaningless when you go to tech sector. Like "Technology Evangelist". I can't seem to find it now, but the AIA had a pretty amusing response to tech using "architect" in their titles; it basically read like one long resigned sigh of defeat.
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Aug 17, 2015 23:39
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Eskaton posted:Well, if they're okay with it, is it really a problem? A model developed in the 19th century doesn't really work for jobs that wouldn't exist for decades hence
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Aug 18, 2015 00:10
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Radish posted:That sounds like a cult. That's because it essentially is. You are not applying for a job, but to become one of a bunch of nerd friends obsessed with webcomics, and even get paid enough to not starve. It's quite possible they believe their own poo poo about making your work environment better rather than paying you cash, because you are supposed to spend all day with your fellow webcomic obsessed nerd friends rather than provide a service in exchange for money.
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Aug 18, 2015 00:11
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Series DD Funding posted:A model developed in the 19th century doesn't really work for jobs that wouldn't exist for decades hence The rest of the industrialized world has tons and tons of unions. I'm really not sure how "collectively leveraging bargaining power" goes out of style.
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Aug 18, 2015 00:13
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Solkanar512 posted:The rest of the industrialized world has tons and tons of unions. I'm really not sure how "collectively leveraging bargaining power" goes out of style. So? The rest of the industrialized world also has lower salaries for tech workers
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Aug 18, 2015 00:20
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Solkanar512 posted:The rest of the industrialized world has tons and tons of unions. I'm really not sure how "collectively leveraging bargaining power" goes out of style. Probably by using the same rational thinking that leads to libertarians disliking unions.
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Aug 18, 2015 00:34
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Series DD Funding posted:So? The rest of the industrialized world also has lower salaries for tech workers You're moving the goal posts. Your original claim was that unions are too outdated to apply to modern jobs. I pointed out that this claim is full of poo poo when you look lots of different nations across the world. So either you need to show that those unions don't in fact exist in the context of modern jobs or admit that you're mistaken and drop the matter altogether.
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Aug 18, 2015 00:41
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They say you don't need a union if your collar isn't blue but that is just another lie your boss is telling you.
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Aug 18, 2015 00:42
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Solkanar512 posted:You're moving the goal posts. Your original claim was that unions are too outdated to apply to modern jobs. I pointed out that this claim is full of poo poo when you look lots of different nations across the world. I didn't say "modern jobs," I said tech worker jobs of the type being discussed in this thread. Neither did I say tech workers don't have unions in other countries
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Aug 18, 2015 00:47
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Series DD Funding posted:I didn't say "modern jobs," I said tech worker jobs of the type being discussed in this thread. Neither did I say tech workers don't have unions in other countries They would have protection against collusion in wages, wage gaps issues, better control over benefits (and the ability to actually use them) and an end to this stack ranked bullshit.
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Aug 18, 2015 01:03
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Solkanar512 posted:They would have protection against collusion in wages, wage gaps issues, better control over benefits (and the ability to actually use them) and an end to this stack ranked bullshit. Protesting Valve Staff Stage Walkoff, Delaying Half Life 3 Indefinitely
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Aug 18, 2015 01:08
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You need a federal-mandate online job market with regional wage schedules. Eventually this model will reorient our education to be more vocational, produce a fair 'gig' economy, and rationalize a basic minimum income. The world will follow our lead in this economic modernization.
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Aug 18, 2015 01:16
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Solkanar512 posted:They would have protection against collusion in wages How? Especially since the seniority system that unions tend to use cause many of the same harms quote:wage gaps issues Not unless the union sponsored girls' programming clubs in schools. Of course you wouldn't need a union for that... quote:better control over benefits (and the ability to actually use them) and an end to this stack ranked bullshit. Those are caused by developers tending to be competitive workaholics
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Aug 18, 2015 01:27
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Series DD Funding posted:How? Especially since the seniority system that unions tend to use cause many of the same harms They would have protection against collusion in wages because wages wouldn't be determined inside some smoke filled room with consent from competitors, they would be bargained for and determined in the open during negotiations, which not only include wages, but exactly how those wages are determined. Since the criteria is concrete, you start attacking wage gap issues right away - in fact, this is one of the first things a union will do once the salary information is determined. It's quite easy to see if all of the female managers make less than the male managers and so on. As for seniority, there's nothing wrong for using it as a tie-breaker or small bonus - there is value in not having huge amounts of turnover, and understanding first hand the history of a company and the mistakes made along the way. Finally, it doesn't matter how much of a competitive workaholic someone is if they're out because of injury, illness, pregnancy, death in the family and so on. Collective bargaining can also ensure that no one receives a PIP for using their vacation time or FMLA, that there is a grievance procedure to address these issues (and other common ones, like say, I dunno, SEXUAL HARASSMENT!?), and that there is legal representation in the case of constructive discharge. Now, will you please substantiate the idea that somehow collective bargaining will not benefit tech workers? You made the claim, and you need to back it up, as well as address all that I've said here.
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Aug 18, 2015 02:24
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:Protesting Valve Staff Stage Walkoff, Delaying Half Life 3 Indefinitely I'm imagining Gabe Newell blubbering as he hires Pinkerton Police to crack the skull of a guy in an utilikilt while millions watch over a twitch stream playing dubstep in the background. I mean this is serious business, but drat if that's not an image!
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Aug 18, 2015 03:15
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Solkanar512 posted:They would have protection against collusion in wages because wages wouldn't be determined inside some smoke filled room with consent from competitors, they would be bargained for and determined in the open during negotiations, which not only include wages, but exactly how those wages are determined. Since the criteria is concrete, you start attacking wage gap issues right away - in fact, this is one of the first things a union will do once the salary information is determined. It's quite easy to see if all of the female managers make less than the male managers and so on. Except wages aren't determined in that manner now, the lawsuit was primarily about no-cold-calling agreements. Plenty of negotiation takes place now using publicly available salary data, what other companies are offering, etc. Why is the union model of negotiation between a set of employees and their employer better? It works fine for situations where there are low productivity differences between employees, low ability to find other jobs, and slow turnover in exact jobs needed. None of those things are true in tech. It;s more likely that there would be adverse selection between union and non-union companies quote:As for seniority, there's nothing wrong for using it as a tie-breaker or small bonus - there is value in not having huge amounts of turnover, and understanding first hand the history of a company and the mistakes made along the way. It causes employment friction from the employee's perspective, just like no-cold-calling agreements quote:Finally, it doesn't matter how much of a competitive workaholic someone is if they're out because of injury, illness, pregnancy, death in the family and so on. Collective bargaining can also ensure that no one receives a PIP for using their vacation time or FMLA, that there is a grievance procedure to address these issues (and other common ones, like say, I dunno, SEXUAL HARASSMENT!?), and that there is legal representation in the case of constructive discharge. It does matter. Someone who wants to work as much as possible can make those breaks shorter or telework during them. And if the majority of workers subscribe to that as a good thing, it sounds like they're getting the outcome they want!
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Aug 18, 2015 03:21
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Series DD Funding posted:Except wages aren't determined in that manner now, the lawsuit was primarily about no-cold-calling agreements. Plenty of negotiation takes place now using publicly available salary data, what other companies are offering, etc. Why is the union model of negotiation between a set of employees and their employer better? It works fine for situations where there are low productivity differences between employees, low ability to find other jobs, and slow turnover in exact jobs needed. None of those things are true in tech. It;s more likely that there would be adverse selection between union and non-union companies Wait, so you seriously don't understand why a group of employees working together under a federally recognized system are able to use that leverage towards better wages, benefits and labor protections? quote:It works fine for situations where there are low productivity differences between employees, low ability to find other jobs, and slow turnover in exact jobs needed. None of those things are true in tech. It;s more likely that there would be adverse selection between union and non-union companies Someone tell the Screen Actor's/Screen Writer's Guild! Or the NFLPA! MLBPA! NBPA! Yeah, no huge differences between members of those unions, right? Oh, wait, actually there are... You still haven't substantiated your original post. You should get on that.
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Aug 18, 2015 03:33
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Oh god another unionize the programmers thread
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Aug 18, 2015 03:46
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Solkanar512 posted:Someone tell the Screen Actor's/Screen Writer's Guild! Or the NFLPA! MLBPA! NBPA! Yeah, no huge differences between members of those unions, right? Oh, wait, actually there are... Yes, those are unions that set minimum salaries for their members. Anyone who wants more still has to negotiate
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Aug 18, 2015 03:54
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SquadronROE posted:Hah! Gotta love how titles are just meaningless when you go to tech sector. Like "Technology Evangelist". Remind me to punch whoever thought of that term in the face multiple times with a power glove or something
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Aug 18, 2015 03:55
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Solkanar512 posted:You're moving the goal posts. Your original claim was that unions are too outdated to apply to modern jobs. I pointed out that this claim is full of poo poo when you look lots of different nations across the world. The only country I can think of that's true for is Germany, and that's because Germany's economy is disproportionately tilted towards manufacturing.
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Aug 18, 2015 04:06
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Typo posted:The only country I can think of that's true for is Germany, and that's because Germany's economy is disproportionately tilted towards manufacturing. Norway also comes to mind. Regardless, "Series DD Funding" hasn't bothered to substantiate his point, and I've provided a whole bunch of counter-examples which he continues to ignore or dismiss without evidence. Seriously, get the gently caress on that, DD. You made the claim, you back it up or drop it.
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Aug 18, 2015 04:19
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Solkanar512 posted:Norway also comes to mind. I believe I've responded to all your points. In fact, you were the one who gave a one-line non-response at http://forums.somethingawful.com/newreply.php?action=newreply&postid=449101610#post449099678
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Aug 18, 2015 04:22
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