|
CommieGIR posted:If those child laborers don't like their working conditions, they can leave. 
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 19:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 03:11 |
|
|
Jeff Bezos Assures Amazon Employees That HR Working 100 Hours A Week To Address Their Complaints
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 20:04
|
|
|
Typo posted:2) Sexual harassment is an issue in the IT industry, but unions in the US have being pretty socially conservative, and have traditionally hated women and minorities because they competed with white male workers for jobs. I'm simply not sure if unions actually solve the problem. I won't disagree with the history of race-segregated unions and what not, but looking towards the gains made by unions in women led industries like nursing or the $15/hour campaign for fast food workers (around 60/40 split white/non-white form what I can find) shows me that traditions are much different today. Besides, we're comparing this against tech workplaces that are really, really white and really, really male. I don't think that should be ignored.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 20:22
|
|
|
Solkanar512 posted:I won't disagree with the history of race-segregated unions and what not, but looking towards the gains made by unions in women led industries like nursing or the $15/hour campaign for fast food workers (around 60/40 split white/non-white form what I can find) shows me that traditions are much different today. But that's kinda the thing though. Nurse's unions made gains for women because they are probably majority female. An union in the tech industry would be vast majority male, which means that they would suffer the exact same problems with gender discrimination as currently experienced.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 21:09
|
|
|
twodot posted:My experience is that this is true, but then a lot of people get home and log into their work computer remotely and are sending email at all hours. Concrete data would be good if you have it. 24/7 connectivity is a bitch, it's tough to stand up to your superiors and say you need to have an end of the day. The problem with Amazon right now is that there is no "End of Day". It's the same standards that allow someone who goes from hourly to salary working for Kroger/Walmart/other lovely retailer to get raped by non-compensated overtime work. Answering email on off hours should count toward overtime period(minimum 1 hour for the gall of interruption). All of these problems could be solved by the update of salary exempt work place standards. If I have to answer email at midnight(I've got timestamps fucker) when my work hours are 9-5 to get to 40, drat straight it's overtime and I should be compensated accordingly. Salary does not mean slave to the company. It's abuse of salaray exempt work standards plain and simple, we will see more blatant bleed into every corporation(too late) if it isn't fixed soon. The new crop of CEO's and CFO's are very aware of 24/7 connectivity and will leverage it mercilessly, BlueBlazer fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Aug 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 21:36
|
|
|
Take 20 min to read through this and tell all the ways I can use the current exempt laws to keep any employee who uses a computer chained to the corporation 24/7. https://www.workplacefairness.org/overtime-exemptions hint: There are alot.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 21:52
|
|
|
quote:27. I work with computers: how does the law apply to me? poo poo you wrote any code in the course of your job. You are anointed a junior programmer/analyst. This list is a job qualifier for working in the 21st century if your assigned a company laptop.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 21:56
|
|
|
BlueBlazer posted:poo poo you wrote any code in the course of your job. You are anointed a junior programmer/analyst. California is a little better about it: quote:(h) Except, as provided in subparagraph (i), an employee in the computer software field who is paid on an hourly basis shall Basically you're not exempt in California unless you make more than $41/hr, or you've got employees under you, or you work in software outside of entry-level positions, of course. It's pretty funny how much they bend over backwards for software.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 22:49
|
|
|
Cicero posted:You mean selling off contracts around deliverables, not employees, right? I mean that half of HP's employees will now be working for a different company than the other half. I'm sure someone has put a valuation on those "assets" during the split, that's just how things work nowadays. Even ignoring splits, it's really really common to buy companies or product teams more for the personnel than for the actual contracts/deliverables/etc. Teams that have demonstrated that they can work together and deliver a product save you a lot of hiring churn. If they're at least tangentially experienced with your planned project, so much the better. There's even a cute term for it, "acqui-hire". Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Aug 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 01:04
|
|
|
Paul MaudDib posted:I mean that half of HP's employees will now be working for a different company than the other half. The high salaries are, I think, a manifestation that even junior devs really can be worth that much, and that one of them may turn out to be a genius who does something incredible is useful but not the primary motivator to paying well.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 01:11
|
|
|
We had a friend in Hyderabad that worked for Amazon who took the job posting as a way to move up the company more quickly. A lot of companies offer that for people to take positions in India for a few years. He was basically told to go out there and "hit the ground running" and blah blah blah whatever. India doesn't have a standardized address system, it's impossible to maintain working HVAC systems, and all the drivers and warehouse workers would steal anything not bolted down. Needless to say it was a complete disaster. He would be awake roughly 20 hours a day because they'd all send him angry emails and phone calls during their hours. He drank a lot often muttered his career was over. His wife divorced him while he was there.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 01:24
|
|
|
Cicero posted:Yes I'm well aware of acquihires. The original statement doesn't make sense though because the employees aren't captive. They can just quit whenever they want (and employees do quit, all the time). Great way to quietly gut your pension system too. Oh you no longer work for X Systems but this contractor Y we contract your work out to who can reduce costs in ways we can't in our company policies. Also not true you can quit whenever you want, most people can't do that. You know bills/debt/etc, commitment to their fellow employees, social capital you've built while working for the machine. It's nice to watch your friends working in call centers/billing departments swirl down the contracting hole hoping to quietly move back to the old company where they had benefits. Just so the new boss can drive a new Mercedes every week. Dev's live in their own trenches. While not awesome, are way better than the rest of the company that supports them. you will never get Dev's (Who can't seem to define what they actually do half the time) to unionize but everyone else in billing departments/call centers/support roles has every right to demand collective representation before they burn it down. Amazon's just moving the mentality up out of the real trenches where it has existed for 20 years to those that make enough to have exposure, and act as if they are special for being treated this way. BlueBlazer fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Aug 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 01:42
|
|
|
BlueBlazer posted:Also not true you can quit whenever you want, most people can't do that. quote:you will never get Dev's quote:(Who can't seem to define what they actually do half the time)
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 01:48
|
|
|
Maybe I should back up and say that focusing on Software devs(I type badly and German when engorged with workers rage) is a bit of red herring. If you read all the horror stories involving Amazon white-collar abuse, it isn't just Software Developers we are talking about, those special little butterflies. It's just so easy to dial in on that species of developer, because what they do is basically magic to most of the world. Developers aren't just in software they're are operational developers, system developers, product developers, resource developers, X developers; X being some sort of business related component/process. Those tasked with displaying creativity and drive in the creation of an incomplete company unit. Software Developers make up a small portion of that category. Please argue my definition of Dev if it doesn't suit your use case, I just defined it for mine.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 02:10
|
|
|
I basically agree with you, I think you're just missing the original context for this sub-thread, which was a non-programming engineer expressing dismay at how much more new software engineers (at some companies) make than him. That then turned into a discussion around "why do even very junior programmers at these companies make so much money?" For example, new grad engineers at Amazon and MS are starting at like the 120-130k range, Google is like 150-160k (and Facebook is probably the same or a bit more).
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 02:23
|
|
|
Cicero posted:I basically agree with you, I think you're just missing the original context for this sub-thread, which was a non-programming engineer expressing dismay at how much more new software engineers (at some companies) make than him. That then turned into a discussion around "why do even very junior programmers at these companies make so much money?" Meh your right, just so much worker rage lately. How many junior programmers actually make that much though out of a pool of newly hired? My gut would say there are edge cases that have examples of exceptional work that's immediately identifiable as marketable ideas.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 02:29
|
|
|
BlueBlazer posted:Meh your right, just so much worker rage lately.  So hiring by these BigTechCos is, while nowhere near the majority, still a non-trivial share of the overall hiring scene. And my experience is that very few junior software developers already have done exceptional work prior to graduation. I personally don't know anyone from my time at Amazon and Google who you could really say that about. I'd imagine that most of the real college coding superstars are probably founding their own companies (although they may end up at a big tech co later via acquisition). * And there are others that undoubtedly pay similarly, like Apple and Yahoo, and a lot of successful later-stage startups like Dropbox, Uber, AirBnB, etc.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 02:42
|
|
|
what are all these "devs" gonna do once the bubble bursts edit: serious question. i work a day or two a week for a startup (on the logistics side) which is pretty clearly hemorrhaging money. once VC wises up and realizes not everything (or even most things) is going to be The Next Twitter or something that they can sell, what do you see a nation of smelly computer programmers used to making 6 figures out of college doing? Your Weird Uncle fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Aug 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 03:07
|
|
|
Cicero posted:I basically agree with you, I think you're just missing the original context for this sub-thread, which was a non-programming engineer expressing dismay at how much more new software engineers (at some companies) make than him. That then turned into a discussion around "why do even very junior programmers at these companies make so much money?" I actually am a programming engineer. Even though I understand it, it still amazes me that some new grads make that much.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 03:12
|
|
|
BlueBlazer posted:Meh your right, just so much worker rage lately. Average salary iirc aren't -that- high for new grads, it's just the ones who do get shitloads of money are disproportionately loud about it It's actually pretty hard to pass amazon/google/FB/MSFT interviews
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 04:22
|
|
|
Your Weird Uncle posted:what are all these "devs" gonna do once the bubble bursts They're gonna drive down wages. SquadronROE posted:I actually am a programming engineer. Even though I understand it, it still amazes me that some new grads make that much. My dad is a geologist and he teaches Petroleum Engineers (or did until recently). They start out of college making $10k more than what he did after 30 years in academia, and he made six figures. poo poo is just as crazy and pretty much for the same reasons. computer parts fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Aug 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 04:28
|
|
|
I honestly feel unionization discussion would be better in it's own thread while this should rather focus on the bizarre belief work is it's own virtue.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 04:35
|
|
|
Your Weird Uncle posted:what are all these "devs" gonna do once the bubble bursts It's because things like the low US tax rate provides lot incentive for rich people to invest in private equity. Also unlike the last dotcom bubble companies like Google and Apple developed really deep pockets.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 04:40
|
|
|
That paying sperglords a disproportionate amount of money compared to their peers creates a sense of entitlement and disconnect from the world at large? That everyone should attempt to work to the same level as them and their privileged time? The only reason I bring unionization up is that these work practices/environments are bleeding out of the software development bubble into the rest of the white collar world and the only way it's going to stop is through collective action in the workplace. I think my arguments against a 24/7 workplace and strengthening of the salaried exempt standards are very appropriate for this thread, as they are in direct contrast of the championed models in today's tech sector. I'm going to stop using unionization as it's a dirty word it seems, and will forever use the phrase "collective bargaining".
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 04:51
|
|
|
BlueBlazer posted:That paying sperglords a disproportionate amount of money compared to their peers creates a sense of entitlement and disconnect from the world at large? That everyone should attempt to work to the same level as them and their privileged time? quote:The only reason I bring unionization up is that these work practices/environments are bleeding out of the software development bubble into the rest of the white collar world and the only way it's going to stop is through collective action in the workplace. That's not because of labor practices though, that's because of technology being produced like the smartphone. E: unionize the programmers threads are also amusing because it's like the one time when D&D leftists actually gets to talk to the workers they want to unionize, and the result is usually to insult and alienate them. Typo fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Aug 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 05:09
|
|
|
Typo posted:idk dude, I don't understand why every time an IT industry thread comes up people think everyone who program is some spergie. Most people who are in the software industry are 30+/married, have families and life outside of work and are there mostly to collect a paycheque. I'm interested in demographics of workers, do you have any links about this? Particularly the Bay Area if possible.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 05:15
|
|
|
Typo posted:idk dude, I don't understand why every time an IT industry thread comes up people think everyone who program is some spergie. Cicero fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Aug 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 05:18
|
|
|
computer parts posted:I'm interested in demographics of workers, do you have any links about this? Particularly the Bay Area if possible. I'm not sure about the bay area, but that has being the case in just about every company I worked at outside of SF startups.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 05:19
|
|
|
Typo posted:idk dude, I don't understand why every time an IT industry thread comes up people think everyone who program is some spergie. Most people who are in the software industry are 30+/married, have families and life outside of work and are there mostly to collect a paycheque. To be fair that is partly because they seem to be kind of dim and really selfish,
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 05:32
|
|
|
I'm actually very curious how many people "want" to work 60+ hours per week, and how many are simply "talking the talk" while participating in an unfettered arms race that began with "to the next promotion" and has now reached its inevitable conclusion of "to not get fired and replaced by someone that arms races harder than me". It seems that, psychologically, it is very easy to do. When I was working and going to school, I kept taking overtime (to try and pay for school) and ended up working 75 days in a row, 60 hours a week. Or, from January to Easter. When I hit Easter break and they shut the plant down, I had abandoned all my hobbies for so long that I had absolutely no idea what to do with myself. It was a mess, and I told myself I wasn't going to do that poo poo ever again. As far as "talking the talk" goes, I do it quite a bit of it ironically, but I learned today that apparently it doesn't come off as irony.  I had one of my co-workers chide me for being such a "company man" today, and it took me awhile to explain to them that it's all ironic and I hold no illusions that they could cut me tomorrow without so much as a "good luck". I have to imagine that at least some of this "I love working so many hours a week!" is a similar coping mechanism. I'd hope, anyway.This, I think, is the real benefit of unionization: the protections and setting limits to say "This amount of time spent at work is *enough*. When you meet these criteria you are an employee in good standing". I figure, if someone *wants* to work more to chase that next promotion, well, then that's on them, but the arms race should not extend all the way down to simply trying to maintain your current spot on the treadmill. That's appalling.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 06:12
|
|
|
Cicero posted:I basically agree with you, I think you're just missing the original context for this sub-thread, which was a non-programming engineer expressing dismay at how much more new software engineers (at some companies) make than him. That then turned into a discussion around "why do even very junior programmers at these companies make so much money?" Those ranges seem way too high to me, I know people who started around 100k but those estimates seem to be 30-50% too high
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 06:17
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:To be fair that is partly because they seem to be kind of dim and really selfish, For example: BlueBlazer posted:That paying sperglords a disproportionate amount of money compared to their peers creates a sense of entitlement and disconnect from the world at large?
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 06:17
|
|
|
I'd wager a lot of the people working 60+ hours or whatever insane number is trotted out aren't exactly working all 60 of those hours or are insanely inefficient with their time. Or consider 'research' online part of their job. Also reminds me of the people howling about how the CEO of Treehouse working 32 hours a week isn't trying hard enough. You gotta be like Marissa Mayer and work 130 hours a week!!!! http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...1ced_story.html
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 06:22
|
|
|
Typo posted:Those ranges seem way too high to me, I know people who started around 100k but those estimates seem to be 30-50% too high quote:Company: Amazon quote:Company: Google More on Google: quote:For Graduate: quote:New grad BSc 2015: quote:New Grad SWE quote:New Grad (B.S.), after negotiation (with counteroffers) Keep in mind I'm factoring in that Google gives annual bonuses that average ~15% or so. Also there was a bit of a movement recently at Google where someone started a form/spreadsheet for people to share their salaries. This is public info now because of drama that erupted around it. In any case it makes it pretty easy see roughly what people are making at different levels. Cicero fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Aug 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 06:27
|
|
|
Tab8715 posted:I honestly feel unionization discussion would be better in it's own thread while this should rather focus on the bizarre belief work is it's own virtue. I don't know, libertarian software devs and their arguments are always worth a laugh Typo posted:idk dude, I don't understand why every time an IT industry thread comes up people think everyone who program is some spergie. Most people who are in the software industry are 30+/married, have families and life outside of work and are there mostly to collect a paycheque. Shockingly, the """tech company""" which was founded and is run by an outspoken libertarian has such shockingly bad management practices that it made the NYT is catching you off-guard? Where have you been? Based on your spelling, I would guess the UK
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 07:08
|
|
|
H.P. Hovercraft posted:I don't know, libertarian software devs and their arguments are always worth a laugh most software developers aren't libertarians though, majority of the ones who are political and are in 20-30 range would be Obama supporters E: come to think of it, I only know 1-2 people from tech who are libertarians, and the one time when one of them posted some poo poo on fb about Ron Paul right after 2012 elections and how he should have won instead of obama other people who were also in tech basically told him that ron paul is retarded Typo fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Aug 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 07:34
|
|
|
Cicero posted:On the other hand, a lot of leftist D&D'ers seem jealous and filled with impotent, childish rage. Hmm... Giving you the benefit of the doubt that I may also be a jealous sperglord. Making 100k right of college would be lovely. No poo poo I'm going to be jealous. I'm doing ok though, think I'll survive. My rage is for the poor schmuck who suffers in the trench just so some guy can feel important by what the company feels they can risk on the hire of a recent grad. When you speak of the recent college grad with a family in his 30s are we grasping at some extreme edge cases? I don't see any problems with that, experience dictates compensation. While out of band, still makes sense. Oh sage of the free market tell me why should a big corp risks 100k on a recent grad programmer with no discernible experience and accomplishments. (You did a good job of eliminating those edge cases.) Do those specific skills dictate that compensation? Are they gambling on the next Woz at the expense of their other workers? Are they turning over employees so fast they have to entice those bright stars? What makes them so special they deserve compensation more than their peers that may have been there years with relevant company experience? I would argue that maybe the company shouldn't be risking so much on fresh recruits at the expense of their other employees . If the rest of their peers believe it's worth that risk at the expense of their own compensation which is built on the work they have done over the years then so be it. That is not my decision to make or even my opinion to matter. That is the heart of collective bargaining. Those devs(I will stop using sperglord as it rude to those whose actions have nothing to do with the outcomes) compensation should be dictated by their peers like in every other civilized country on this earth. Not by management so desperate to find the new Woz, pushed out those burned out by company policy, or trying to make the point that you too can be an ubermensch deserving of the markets blessing. *your a cool dude, let's d&d BlueBlazer fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Aug 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 07:58
|
|
|
A mix of unfounded hype and a mistaken belief in the overwhelming power of the unconstrained creativity of
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 08:31
|
|
I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
|
blowfish posted:A mix of unfounded hype and a mistaken belief in the overwhelming power of the unconstrained creativity of Yeah I will admit alot of people on the left spectrum tend to forget that most companies aren't coldly calculating sociopaths. They are more like a spergy autist irrationally making terrible decisions because they don't understand how they could go wrong.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 10:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 03:11 |
|
|
I'm not a developer by trade but I work closely with them and I've done my fair share of software development. A lot of people in this thread are balking at the high salaries that devs get, but here's the thing: compared to the value they are adding to a company, they are actually getting hosed over. This value they add can come in many forms, but usually it is productivity gains, revenue increases, new revenue potential (e.g. new products) or cost reductions from automation. I'd say an average dev can add anywhere from half a million dollars to several million dollars of value. That's why Guy Kawasaki's "back of the napkin" software company valuation formula multiplies the number of engineers with $1 million. (Of course, whether the company can convert this value into revenue/profit is another matter entirely.) Over the course of my career I've worked with several hundred devs at various capacities, and I would agree that the majority of them are indeed "spergs". Especially if they are young and/or just out of college, they totally lack social skills and can be incredibly awkward in person, which can be very frustrating in meetings and company events (they tend to not attend the latter unless they are dev-only events, which my previous two companies held regularly, perhaps for that very reason). As they get older, they become more well-adjusted socially, and 30-something devs are actually very fun to talk to because they tend to be smart and talk about interesting topics. The only exception I've noticed to the above are what the programming community itself has termed "brogrammers", who are "bros" who taught themselves enough programming to get hired at a software company. Those guys tend to be pretty social in general (they like playing "young person games" like beer pong and also outdoor activities like ultimate frisbee), and perhaps for this reason they are viewed with a certain amount of disdain by the rest of the dev community. Kind of a weird No True Scotsman thing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2015 11:38
|
|
