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Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.
One item on my list that was somewhat of a priority was the torn suspension boot. These rubber bellows prevent dust and dirt from contacting the chrome shaft and oil seals which form the hydraulic portion of the hydropneumatic suspension. When dirt gets in, it is ground between the chrome shaft and the oil seals, scoring the shaft and tearing the rubber seals. Once the seals are damaged, suspension fluid can leak out, ironically this fluid eats away at the material the dust boots are made from. The new dust boot degrades rapidly and the cycle continues. Once the shaft is scored, it requires regrinding and hard chroming back to spec. Getting these boots changed as soon as they show signs of failure is important!

Here's how one changes a dust boot. The process takes about an hour, and can lead to significant amounts of mess and lost fluid if not done correctly.

First, we jack up the car, taking the weight off the strut in question. The strut is bled of residual pressure (held by the nitrogen accumulator which forms the lower part of the strut - this acts in place of the spring on conventional suspension).


This fluid is green - stock fluid is light red/pink, and goes green over time as it ages (presumable form oxidation). Once it reaches this dark green colour, it is generally time to replace the fluid. I will be doing this later once the other suspension problems are fixed)


The lower portion of the strut unbolted from the lower control arm and lifted by hand to push any remaining fluid out. The allen bolt on top is then used to seal the strut off from the rest of the system - this bolt is also used during servicing, if it is not desirable to bleed the fluid out.


The lower hose clamp on the dust boot is loosened, the boot is pushed up out of the way, exposing this steel ring. The ring holds the bump stop, the drain holes are there to drain any liquids (not that there should ever be any in there)



A 36mm Land Rover fan clutch wrench is thin enough to loosen the chrome shaft from the accumulator body (lower, larger black item in this picture)


The accumulator is removed, along with the steel ring, bump stop, and whatever is left of the dust boot.



The chrome shaft can be inspected for wear. The large bronze coloured nut can be removed if necessary to service the seals and other internal parts of the strut.


A new dust boot is overnighted from Japan, fitted with the original top hat (used to prevent dirt from entering the breather holes), and fitted to the strut.




The accumulator is replaced.


The steel ring is replaced, the dust boot is reattached, and the job is just about done!


The car can then be lowered to the ground, and the strut can be refilled and bleed with the engine running and the suspension in diagnostic mode. This strut will collapse as it has no fluid, usually pinning your jack in place. The allen bolt is unscrewed, allowing fluid to enter, and the bleed nipple is loosened to allow air to escape. The bled-out fluid can be recycled. A short drive (to allow the car to recalibrate the height of that shock) followed by a quick re-bleed with the car idling is all that's left! Much easier than changing a loving cam sprocket.

Fortunately, this job cost me a total of £0, as I was given a few spare dust boots a few years back, and I replaced any lost fluid with old, used fluid in preparation for a full flush.

Still to do:
Brake fluid leak
Broken overdrive switch
Gauge cluster works 25% of the time
Speedometer tops out at 40kph
Boot lid all lovely, hole in rear bumper
CD player doesn't work
Headlights are full of water
Suspension system is leaking
Active suspension feels very hard, as if the sealed nitrogen accumulators have leaked.
Front left brake caliper is sticking

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Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.
The Soarer is mostly identical to the SC300/400 One of the ways in which it differs is that all Soarers have an awesome digital dash which looks sexy as gently caress when it's all working. However, a common problem on these cars is a failure of a few capacitors. There are two failures: either the ones which power the vacuum-fluorescent display for the upper/main section (containing the tach, speedometer, fuel, temp, etc gauges), or the ones which power the inverter for the fluorescent lamp which acts as a backlight for the shift position indicator, odometer, and natural display.

The problem usually occurs when the car is cold - the dependance on temperature plus the known lifespan of early '90s electrolytic capacitors makes the diagnostic process that much easier. That, and many people have already documented the repair!


Here's a crappy picture of the gauge cluster from my other car, which is fully working and looks great!


This is the amount of crap which is in the way of removing the gauge cluster. The VFD is mounted horizontally in the top of the unit, and projects downwards onto a mirror, which reflects the image towards the driver. There are non-silvered areas of this mirror, which allow the turn signal and other warning lights to shine through. These lamps, and the LCD displays along the bottom, are located on the back wall of the unit, in the same place as every other car.

This arrangement results in a very deep cluster, and the removal process requires removing the steering wheel and dropping the steering column by a few centimeters to prevent the sharp metalwork of the column from scratching the tinted plastic face of the cluster. Note that the centre console has to be disconnected and moved rearwards by a few inches to gain clearance to remove the trim around the steering wheel. This in turn requires removal of the glove box and trim on the passenger side. I can now get a gauge cluster out in around 15-20 minutes from a complete car - the first time I tried, it was almost 2 hours!


A shot of the rear of the cluster. This thing is a large triangle shaped object which is awkwardly weighted and is just begging to roll off the workbench at every conceivable opportunity. The LCD panels inside are very fragile, rough handling can often result in failures of the LCD units.


I don't have a picture of the mirror (it is rather impressive), but here's an inside shot looking into the top of the display. The VFD units hide behind tinted plastic.


Here is the same PCB as removed from the cluster. There is nothing wrong with this board, it just looks cool and I wanted to share it.

The problem capacitors were located and removed. There are around 50 electrolytic capacitors in this unit, many of them are surface mount.


This capacitor has leaked, and damaged a nearby PCB trace. This is common on early 90's Japanese cars. Old Toyota ECUs are especially vulnerable - ECUs with failing capacitors generally don't show any symptoms until the electrolyte eats away at nearby traces, by which point the damage is much more severe. If you look to the top left of the C216 square you will see some bare copper with a black gap in the centre, where the copper has been eaten away.


The trace could be repaired, but due to the small scale, a more robust solution may be to run a wire in place of the trace. The trace in question connects the AIR BAG lamp to one pin of the interconnecting ribbon cable inside the unit. This is easily bypassed with a thin wire, which can then be stuck to the PCB.

A working AIR BAG lamp is a requirement to pass the annual safety inspection in the UK.


There is also one common transistor failure. I'm not sure how or why this fails, or if mine is bad, but for a few pence it is worth changing while I'm this far into the cluster.



After replacing the failed components, the cluster live again! So many problems on these cars are caused by aged capacitors - there are over 1000 of them in total inside this car (someone has done the hard work of listing them all, broken down by PCB, which is very handy!)

Unfortunately, this did not fix the erratic speedometer reading, which stops working above 40kph. A new sensor fixed this issue! The sensors aren't cheap, even Chinese ones, but aren't too difficult to change - they are in the standard location near the rear of the transmission. The Soarer has two speed sensors for road speed, one for the ECU and one for the dash - in the event of the ECUs sensor failing, it will use the dashboard sensor instead. Clever girl.

Still to do:
Brake fluid leak
Broken overdrive switch
Boot lid all lovely, hole in rear bumper
CD player doesn't work
Headlights are full of water
Suspension system is leaking
Active suspension feels very hard, as if the sealed nitrogen accumulators have leaked.
Front left brake caliper is sticking

Seat Safety Switch
May 27, 2008

MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.

Pillbug
Wow, surface mount is a pain in the rear end. Good work there.

Sten Freak
Sep 10, 2008

Despite all of these shortcomings, the Sten still has a long track record of shooting people right in the face.
College Slice
Really cool cars and great write up.

I had a 93 ls400 which I finally gave up on due to electronics and ECU problems. No time tto figure it out and my mechanic basically threw in the towel but the engine and transmission, and interior were still great at 180k miles.

Reading about what all can go wrong with such a complex system makes me shudder but in execution I'm sure it's great to drive. My LS got me back into a Lexus after a stint in a Subaru. They build some drat fine cars.

More on how they drive would be appreciated.

Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.
If you're handy with electronics (basically just replacing capacitors) and you remove all the PO fuckery, then 99% of the electrical issues can be repaired for very little time or money. These older Lexus cars were so well built, with such reliable mechanicals but with so much electronic poo poo, that the cars have managed to outlive their own electronics. Which is great for me, as I can pick up cars with hosed dashboards, TVs, ECUs, etc for very little, and repair them in a few days.

I'm currently scouting for a top spec GS450h, these seem to go for between £5k and £10k for the 2006-2009 models, but are starting to suffer from failed/burnt out battery packs, which is a £4k repair. I'll snap up the first sub-3k hosed car I can, and will repair the battery pack (normally just individual blown cells, plus significant corrosion on the internal bus bars).

As for how these cars drive, great question. The answer is 'not like anything you've ever driven before'. The hydropneumatic suspension is very soft, the car feels floaty to drive, with very little feedback from the road. The steering is extremely light, especially at low speeds, due to the dual PS pumps and a speed-sensitive pressure valve on the rack. They are somewhat unnerving to drive at first, I didn't feel comfortable having so little feedback from the road until I was used to how the car handled. Once you get used to it, you realise that your inputs are mere suggestions and that car is rpetty muhc driving itself.

The rear steering joins in the party whenever it feels like it. Using a yaw rate sensor and various G sensors dotted around the car, it will work automatically at high speeds to counter cross-winds, it will allow the car to 'crab' sideways for high speed lane changes, and will work with the traction control system to prevent (minimise) any sliding in the rear end. These cars are pretty undriftable, once the car senses a loss of traction in the rear and the rear end sliding out, the rear steering rack will attempt to straighten the car. Depending on your speed at the time, this may work out fine, or may just leave you with an oversteer which is difficult to handle.

The car corners like a dream. There is zero body roll whatsoever, the car has a G sensor and a physical height sensor (attached to the lower control arm) in each corner. The cornering ability of this car is much higher than the other Soarers, despite its weight, the system works well to apply maximum force onto each tyre.

The suspension pump uses a lot of power, figures of up to 40hp have been quoted. There are high pressure accumulators in the system to meet sudden demand. The pump is automatically regulated at 1720psi and works to keep these accumulators ready for action, as well as provide additional fluid when needed.

The car struggles over bumps in the road, attempting to level the car as each axle drives over the bump. Humpback bridges are a special challenge. Taking any kind of bump at speed will normally cause the system to think 'what the gently caress', and struts will end up at their upper or lower limits of travel quite rapidly. These cars are cruisers and are not meant for harsh or reckless driving.

The worst side effect is felt when pulling away. If you want to move off quickly, you generally apply power, and the car squats at the rear, giving extra traction to the rear wheels. The UZZ32 will fight that squat, reducing traction and robbing engine power to do so. These cars accelerate well from 10-140mph, with a top speed of around 160 but in the past I've been beaten off the line by a non-ST Fiesta!

As the height is adjusted by the computer, the ride height can be changed by changing the length of a threaded rod (turnbuckle) which joins the LCA to the height sensor on each corner. The adjustment needs to be identical on each corner, or your car will not ride flat. Still, this is easier and cheaper than changing out springs! The car has a NORMAL/HIGH switch - I have lowered my car by a few cm, the HIGH setting takes it back to slightly higher than the stock NORMAL position. I have not scraped the bottom yet!

The ECT (transmission) NORMAL/POWER switch changes the shift points, makes the kickdown activate a lot earlier (pretty muhc as soon as you press on the gas pedal) and holds gears until redline when accelerating. On the UZZ32 it also firms up the suspension.

The hydraulic valves for each corner are standard spool/shuttle valves. These need to be kept in constant motion when the system is operational to prevent static friction from holding them in place when subtle changes are required. This results in a requirement for a very slight motion from the suspension at all times, which is only noticeable when the car is stationary (as the valves are in constant use anyway when the car is being driven). Due to this, all UZZ32s 'breathe' when stopped at traffic lights, with the car slowly bobbing up and down. It's quite adorable.

These cars are very 'throwable'. Once you get used to how they drive, you can just turn the steering wheel where you want to go, hammer the throttle and trust the car to sort itself out. On country roads in the UK, this car is an absolute menace.

Here's some media from the internet on the handling/cornering ability of these cars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS-ysvO2hMc
Jeremy gives it a positive review despite not knowing the make and model of the car. He attempts a high speed corner at around 55 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnDs6Fjz_7Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2QV_PaUWhs
Just for fun, here's the suspension test sequence.





Edit: A SC400 owner drives a UZZ32: http://planetsoarer.com/UZZ30/UZZ30.htm

This magazine article sums the car up pretty well: http://planetsoarer.com/HPIUZZ32/hpiuzz32.htm

quote:

Turn in to the first right hander and it sits flat goes around; nothing to it though at 30km/h. Peter urges more throttle. This time I add 20km/h to the signposted entry of the left/right flip flop and am mildly surprised when the tight controlled nature of the chassis has no problem with recovery and changing direction. Hmmm.

Pressing on, and starting to do things that would have me white knuckled in my own Soarer saw the Active completely unflapped. Never once did it give that feel of ‘catch me if you can’. Rather it replaced that insecure edge-of-a-slide feeling with a spooky sensation of being unable to ‘roll’. Didn’t matter how hard you punched the Active into the corner, or how stupidly late you apexed, there was no body roll. Not a little. No body roll at all.

My next mistake was driving the Active like a conventionally sprung car. All of a sudden the rules of braking are totally re written. Forget about a big stomp on the anchors unsettling the chassis and pitching the nose forward. Don’t worry about getting all your braking done in a straight line. This thing doesn’t dive. You can feel the suspension pushing back against you, but regardless of how contrived the braking experience feels the fact remains that other than change the traction limit of the front tyres you have done nothing to stop the car turning. If you have the grip then trail brake hard into every bend.

Its like that driving the Active. It creates a false dawn, makes you believe that the UZZ32, the heaviest of the Soarers, is actually the lightest, nimblest, and encourages you to constantly up the tempo. False or not though the fact that the Active can literally decimate the blacktop, make average drivers look brilliant, and focus the whole driving experience on the quality of the tyres, is nothing short of astounding. With around half the power of my highly tuned Soarer, the Active could, and would, easily gap it on challenging B roads. It’s a Soarer that handles, and it breaks all of my rules.

To achieve such massive stability, and almost zero roll, from a car weighing in at 1730kg is the result of massive engineering and development in a truly Active suspension system, of the same calibre as used in mid nineties Formula One. The Active Soarer has no springs, it has no shock absorbers, it has zero in the way of conventional suspension hardware. Instead it has massive hydraulic rams with computer controlled fluid bleed and height positioning on each corner that allow the chassis to be tweaked, balanced, and skewed, all at the bequest of a highly sophisticated electronic control system. Its this computer, or more to the point, the software contained within it that elevates the vehicles handling to such a transcendental plane. All of this in 1991.

Hope that's helpful? Feel free to ask any specific questions about whatever.

Pomp and Circumcized fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Dec 24, 2015

PaintVagrant
Apr 13, 2007

~ the ultimate driving machine ~
These cars are so awesome. Thanks for posting about yours, this is a really fun thread to read.

Sten Freak
Sep 10, 2008

Despite all of these shortcomings, the Sten still has a long track record of shooting people right in the face.
College Slice
Really enlightening, thanks.

Wonder of the current batch of electronics and their capacitors will do better than the plagued 90s batch.

Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.
I hope so. I'm using all Panasonic capacitors (it was that or unbranded/generic), and have bought the not-cheapest units, which claim a 3000 hour lifetime. At an average driving speed of 40mph (I generally only do highway miles, it's rare for me to drive into a city at all), I guess that's 120,000 miles. The original capacitors were all Nichicon, which are also highly regarded, and have lasted over 20 years. I would not be surprised if I got the same performance out of these newer ones. I'm not sure how much electrolytic capacitor technology has changed in the last 20 years!

Ferremit
Sep 14, 2007
if I haven't posted about MY LANDCRUISER yet, check my bullbars for kangaroo prints

I think its less the technology has changed, and more that most of the manufacturers aren't using a stolen lovely half finished completely useless recipe for their caps.

Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.

Ferremit posted:

I think its less the technology has changed, and more that most of the manufacturers aren't using a stolen lovely half finished completely useless recipe for their caps.

This occurred later - from 1997 onward. With most capacitors in these cars lasting 20+ years, it's safe to assume that the failures are due to the capacitors reaching their expected end-of-life, and not due to any defective capacitors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

Das Volk
Nov 19, 2002

by Cyrano4747
If the active suspension was all that, why don't we see this in modern cars? No call for it? MRS good enough?

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


Citroën were deep into hydropneumatic suspension since the mid 1955s, first on the Traction Avant and a few years later on the magnificent DS.

They weren't really active systems as such, all they did was provide a progressive nitrogen spring (the green spheres), linked suspension front-to-rear (so in essence, when the front hit a bump, the rear would rise lessen the impact and vice versa), self-leveling and adjustable ride height. It gave a supremely smooth ride that feels completely effortless and is extremely comfortable, but the handling is less than ideal, to say the least. It was made for cruising, not for racing (although the DS did reasonably well in desert rallying due to its ability to soak up bumps.

Active hydropneumatic suspension was introduced on the XM in 1989 in the form of the Hydractive system, which will sense body roll and pitch due to acceleration/braking and cornering, and counteract it by sending more pressure to the relevant parts of the system, or couple in additional spheres to stiffen up the suspension, for instance on the right side of the car during left turns.

The Hydractive system has seen several generations, most famously on the Xantia Activa from 1994, which featured active anti roll bars, much more aggressive programming and the almost complete elimination of body roll. An Activa-equipped Xantia V6 still holds the record for the fastest time through Teknikens Värld's infamous moose test, faster than a Porsche 996 GT2. Unfortunately it didn't sell particularly well, since most Citroën buyers want comfort above all and don't really care too much about body roll or handling on the limit.

The latest (and possibly last) generation system on the C6 and current C5 is something that has to be experienced to be believed. Apart from being fully active, with the ability to change damping profiles on the fly, the system works in two modes according to the driving situation. "Sky hook" mode for normal driving, where the car is as decoupled from the road as possible, and "road hook" mode for stability during cornering. I know I sound like a Citroën marketing pamphlet, but it is actually slightly disconcerting just how smoothly and seamlessly it goes from absolute comfort to confident cornering and back.

But in my mind, the real party trick is how the car acts when you hit a bump. The suspension registers the bump and since it knows the exact wheelbase of the car and how fast it is traveling, it will then prepare the rear suspension for the bump, lessening the impact to almost completely negate the impact.

Unfortunately, Citroën are probably going to drop the hydropneumatic active suspension from the next generation C5. They say it's because conventional suspension has finally achieved the same comfort level at a much lower price and with lesser maintenance costs, thanks to progressive spring rates (one of the big advantages of air suspension) and magnetic ferrofluid dampers. But us true Citroënists know that's bullshit, and that no steel spring will ever match a nitrogen-filled sphere :france:

KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Dec 28, 2015

Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.
Most likely a combination price, complexity, higher maintenance and service costs. It has reappeared in other cars now and then, it's currently available in a few Mercedes models. Citroen has been using hydropneumatic suspension for years, and they still do, but this is not truly active - it is just variable dampening of hydropneumatic shocks with the cute balls on top.

The Soarer was unique in that it also merged active 4WS into the same system, allowing the car to do pretty much whatever the gently caress it wanted.

This was Toyota's halo car, it cost around $100k in 1991 money, and subsequently, only 872 were ever sold.


Mercedes markets their similar product as 'Magic Body Control'. This is a fully active hydraulic system, very similar to that found in the UZZ32. No 4WS intervention, but it does use cameras to detect road surface changes, and pre-emptively adjusts the shocks to meet bumps at the correct time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Body_Control#Magic_Body_Control

Many other manufacturers are using 'magnetic ride' type "active" suspension (really just adjustable damping rates for regular coil spring suspension. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagneRide

Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.

KozmoNaut posted:

conventional suspension has finally achieved the same comfort level at a much lower price and with lesser maintenance costs, thanks to progressive spring rates (one of the big advantages of air suspension) and magnetic ferrofluid dampers.

Thanks for the excellent reply! This quote pretty much sums it up.

Das Volk
Nov 19, 2002

by Cyrano4747

ShittyPostmakerPro posted:

Most likely a combination price, complexity, higher maintenance and service costs. It has reappeared in other cars now and then, it's currently available in a few Mercedes models. Citroen has been using hydropneumatic suspension for years, and they still do, but this is not truly active - it is just variable dampening of hydropneumatic shocks with the cute balls on top.

The Soarer was unique in that it also merged active 4WS into the same system, allowing the car to do pretty much whatever the gently caress it wanted.

This was Toyota's halo car, it cost around $100k in 1991 money, and subsequently, only 872 were ever sold.


Mercedes markets their similar product as 'Magic Body Control'. This is a fully active hydraulic system, very similar to that found in the UZZ32. No 4WS intervention, but it does use cameras to detect road surface changes, and pre-emptively adjusts the shocks to meet bumps at the correct time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Body_Control#Magic_Body_Control

Many other manufacturers are using 'magnetic ride' type "active" suspension (really just adjustable damping rates for regular coil spring suspension. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagneRide

It's quite remarkable to see this just now making it into a magnetorheological suspension system. The touch screen is also reminiscent of the Chrysler system in my Viper, which debuted (I think) 22 years later. It's cool to see how advanced these cars are; if they sold here, I'd bet they would start hitting Mecum and Barrett-Jackson in about 10 years.

Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.
They hit 25 years old next year, so you can bring one in for cheap (seriously, they sell for less than $1000 in Japan), and it will be mostly ignored due to all the mad tyte RHD JDM skylines and 10-second Supras which will be appearing at the same time.

It is a truly great car. Anyone in the US who has driven the SC300/400 can testify to the build quality and overall performance, the UZZ32 just takes it a few (hundred) steps further. The touchscreen is awesome, unfortunately the radio only tunes to Japanese frequencies (79-90MHz), the TV is analogue only (no longer used in the UK) and again, Japanese. The GPS is Japan-only and navigation CDs (the car has two, each with its own industrial CD player!) were only available for Japan. Basically this thing is a very fancy AC controller and trip computer. I still love it though, it's the centrepiece to the interior and makes an adorable beep.

The touchscreen is not a true touchscreen - I guess the technology didn't exist in the late 80's. It's an array of infra-red LEDs and opposing photodiodes positioned just in front of the polarised plastic which forms the face of the unit, and through some software trickery, it can use the combination of broken light paths to place your finger on a 11x9 matrix. Can't be beat for reliability, though!

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011

:h:

You're now making me want one of these, I spotted one owned by some dickhead as it was covered top to bottom in stickers but I've always loved the way they look if nothing else, those rear lights are pretty distinctive.

I'll now add these to my search list when I run through all the usual car websites like pistonheads, car and classic etc.

Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.
If you're in the UK, they are very cheap. Unless you want a UZZ32 for *reasons*, I'd recommend a more "normal" Soarer instead. The 2.5 turbo (JZZ30) Soarers are the most popular, and have a 1JZ motor (inline 6 which should apparently make a comeback).

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011

:h:

Yeah, UK. might have to keep an eye out then...

Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.
They pop up on eBay from time to time. I wouldn't really recommend any of the UK Soarer clubs for anything. Feel free to send me PM with any cars you may be interested in - I know all the Soarer models quite well and know all their common faults/check points.

They really are a great value car. Very well made, as good as they look. Downside is the weight (between 1350kg for the base model 3.0 and 1750kg for a UZZ32), fuel economy (30ish mpg for most models, 25-27 for the V8s, 20 for the UZZ32), and insurance (highest group, plus it's an import. I pay £400 per car per year). Servicing is cheap and parts are plentiful if you know where to look and are happy doing the work yourself (and you're posting in AI, so...).

Pomp and Circumcized fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Dec 29, 2015

randomidiot
May 12, 2006

by Fluffdaddy

(and can't post for 11 years!)

ShittyPostmakerPro posted:

The touchscreen is not a true touchscreen - I guess the technology didn't exist in the late 80's. It's an array of infra-red LEDs and opposing photodiodes positioned just in front of the polarised plastic which forms the face of the unit, and through some software trickery, it can use the combination of broken light paths to place your finger on a 11x9 matrix. Can't be beat for reliability, though!

GM did something similar, except with an actual CRT, on some Buicks in the late 80s. I believe it was the Reatta and Riviera.

It was actually pretty neat, though parts for them are very hard to come by today.

cakesmith handyman
Jul 22, 2007

Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.

What size is the screen, how much depth do you have behind it and how does it communicate with the rest of the car?

Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.

Cakefool posted:

What size is the screen, how much depth do you have behind it and how does it communicate with the rest of the car?

I've found a load of pictures which may help answer these questions.

The screen is roughly 6" diagonal. There is next to 0 depth behind it - the unit backs into the heater box/rear seet feet ducts, and sits on top of the airbag computer and gyroscope (UZZ32 only).


The center console with the EMV removed.


An EMV mounted with no center console

The EMV unit is built of 3 components: The display (black metal box with plastic fascia), the computer (silver L shaped item with a few folded PCBs, similar to a regular Engine ECU), and a cassette player below it which also acts as the input selector and some controls for the audio system.


A shot of the rear of an EMV - this one has an aftermarket loom attached, most likely a NTSC-PAL converter for the TV to be used in the UK.


The rear of a unit with its wiring loom removed, sitting on the bench. The cassette player and computer are visible.


A display (left) and computer (right), separated

If you are going with a custom audio system, you can remove the cassette player, stereo receiver (under the rear seat) TV tuner (ditto), antennas and their amplifiers (etched onto the windows), CD stacker, and amplifier (in the trunk) You might as well also remove the navigation computer and navigation CD players (and the GPS antennas) since you're butchering the system.

You will need to build your own harness to power the speakers, the inputs to which is in the trunk (of course). The stock subwoofer amplifier can stay, and can receive a standard line (pre-out) level input, with a switched +12v to trigger it (the aux out for motorised antennas on most aftermarket stereos works well for this).

Communication with the car is mostly old school analogue, with independent inputs from things such as parking brake, stop light switch, etc. It has a rudimentary bus (labelled TXM+/- on the schematic below), which I believe is for control/sync of the entertainment systems. There is a dedicated connection to the HVAC computer. The strip of heater controls above the screen is not electrically connected, it just mounts on the same fascia and plugs into the HVAC computer with its own cable.


A schematic which I started to translate myself, along with connector reference. This is not yet finished - I moved onto other things and forgot about it, but it does show the complete wiring layout of the UZZ32 entertainment system

The EMV touchscreen system was limited to the UZZ32, and was an option on the UZZ31 (airbag) Soarer. Other Soarers got a standard (but still fancy) heater controller, and LCDs bleed out on all of these which is a shame. They got a 2.5-DIN stereo below, of varying quality. These stereos contain the audio receiver and amplifier, making the change to a normal car stereo much easier (on EMV equipped cars, the antenna wires and stereo power come out below the rear seats, and the speaker-level wires are in the trunk). Most people change these out for a double DIN stereo with minimal wiring fuckery required.


EMV Fascias, including one (rare) optional wood finish (actually lacquered, hydrodipped plastic, but in 25 years nobody seemed to notice until I tore one apart).

The cassette player on EMV cars is single DIN, and the side mounting bolts fit most standard stereos. You often need to inset an aftermarket stereo so that it clears the ash tray. A normal 160mm deep (all CD/DVD units) will not fit, as it will hit the airbag computer. You need to go with a 'mechless' stereo. Not a problem for me as I stream everything from my cellphone over Bluetooth, and also use the stereo as a hands-free kit.


Bonus! An EMV display teardown for all you nerds out there. I strip and repair these as a side business. I have 7 units on a shelf right now, and buy every single one that I come across (90% of the time, they are broken). I also do an exchange service, selling working EMVs in return for broken ones.


An EMV unit with the rear cover removed. Visible is the DC-DC converter (upside down on top), backlight inverter (far left), main PCB (main PCB). The white plugs connect to the small PCB visible in the background - this controls the 'touch screen', and sits behind a small plate, outside of the rear cover (as it needs to be disconnected to remove the fascia)


With the DC-DC converter removed, the main PCB is invisible. These house many variable resistors, and are 'tuned' to each LCD. It's a good idea to keep LCDs and PCBs together as a pair. The settings are quite confusing, and trial-and-error is employed (nobody has any reference of what the adjustments do).


With the fascia removed (and that old, perished foam cleaned off), the LCD is visible. This surface is very fragile - any pressure will result in dead pixels. If it gets dirty, then you'd better hope that IPA on a Q-tip will clean it. They are Toshiba screens, with the sub-pixels arranged in a honeycomb fashion.


Main PCB removed, showing the backlight inverter and housing.


A backlight under test. These are fluorescent tubes, they are dimmable. This one has failed - it only glows a dim blue, not bright enough for practical use.


A failed backlight. These cannot be repaired, and are what I dread to see when opening an EMV. I have 4 complete units that are fine other than their backlight. Others have had great success in commissioning LED-based backlight panels form China - and with simple electronics, the original dimming function can be modified to dim a LED backlight.


Most of the components of an EMV display under test. The fascia (and touch panel) and LCD are missing from this photograph.

Pomp and Circumcized fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Jan 1, 2016

Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.

some texas redneck posted:

GM did something similar, except with an actual CRT, on some Buicks in the late 80s. I believe it was the Reatta and Riviera.

It was actually pretty neat, though parts for them are very hard to come by today.

Sorry, I missed this post before!

This is freaking awesome. It being an actual CRT adds to the cool factor. It's 80's as gently caress and I love it. Leopard print and gold rings in the video too. Perfect.

It does have some definite similarities to the Soarer EMV unit - I wouldn't be surprised if there was some 'inspiration' taken from this design!

Edit: BEEP BEEP! Would drive me loving nuts.

cakesmith handyman
Jul 22, 2007

Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.

Fascinating stuff, thank you. Have you thought of experimenting with led strip to replace the backlight? You could attach it in the same pattern/shape as the florescent tube and as you say run a simple PWM controller off the original dimming circuit.

Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.
It's been done before with custom made backlights, with proper diffusers:



There are companies in China that will churn these out to your custom size and brightness, or you can buy larger ones of a standard size and cut them down (loving carefully).

These mount in place of the original backlight, the space which was once occupied by the inverter can house a PWM controller. The metalwork can be recycled, and a plastic frame can be purchased or 3D printed to hold the backlight panel.

Here's a before and after of a unit which has been converted:





Here's a 'wall of fail', from another website, showing what other 'automotive electricians' have attempted in the past.









Pomp and Circumcized fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jan 1, 2016

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011

:h:

I should stop looking at these, particularly when you can pick up a V8 version for just over £1000.

https://www.gumtree.com/p/toyota/1992-toyota-soarer-v8-uzz31/1149542547

Seat Safety Switch
May 27, 2008

MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.

Pillbug

ShittyPostmakerPro posted:

Here's a 'wall of fail', from another website, showing what other 'automotive electricians' have attempted in the past.











WTF how did multiple people butcher it that badly?

Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.

88h88 posted:

I should stop looking at these, particularly when you can pick up a V8 version for just over £1000.

https://www.gumtree.com/p/toyota/1992-toyota-soarer-v8-uzz31/1149542547

Yup, and most of the common problems are pretty minor and easily repaired. Since you're a goon, I will offer you free tech support!

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011

:h:

If I had the cash spare right now I'd have called already. I'll be patient.

Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.
The one you linked to looks OK. It's a 1992 so has the heated seats, which is nice (my 1991's didn't have that). No spoiler looks a bit goofy, I had a Soarer with no spoiler and I prefer them with. Shame about the exterior damage. The other faults (drivers bolster, cracked vents) are common, you'd do well to find a car without those problems (funny enough, I'm about to wreck a car that has neither of those problems!

Jomo
Jul 11, 2009
I'm surprised no one's replaced the 25 year old computer with an ardruino or raspberry Pi. You'd be able to bring all the missing functionally back like the GPS etc in English, and be able to add extra stuff like live OBD output to the screen, all while keeping the stock look and feel. Or is this something that's already been done?

Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.
There have been almost no mods to these units. Someone did release a chip which would translate a few of the menu icons. What you are suggesting would mean gutting the whole unit and adding a modern screen and pc which retains the original controls, right? That would be awesome, but the relatively low number of these cars remaining makes it unlikely that anyone would put in the effort.

It would be great to have a modern system in there which can stream music and videos over 4g, connect to my cell phone via Bluetooth, etc. The current unit runs the heating system, so that would need programming. The entire entertainment system would need to be removed, as a pc can replicate everything except the amplifier.

Raluek
Nov 3, 2006

WUT.

ShittyPostmakerPro posted:

There have been almost no mods to these units. Someone did release a chip which would translate a few of the menu icons. What you are suggesting would mean gutting the whole unit and adding a modern screen and pc which retains the original controls, right? That would be awesome, but the relatively low number of these cars remaining makes it unlikely that anyone would put in the effort.

It would be great to have a modern system in there which can stream music and videos over 4g, connect to my cell phone via Bluetooth, etc. The current unit runs the heating system, so that would need programming. The entire entertainment system would need to be removed, as a pc can replicate everything except the amplifier.

I think he means to reverse engineer the inputs and outputs of the existing display/interface, and just replace the computer bits with something modern. Still requires probably too much work, considering how few of these are extant.

Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.
Yeah I know, that was what I was replying to

Seat Safety Switch
May 27, 2008

MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.

Pillbug

Raluek posted:

I think he means to reverse engineer the inputs and outputs of the existing display/interface, and just replace the computer bits with something modern. Still requires probably too much work, considering how few of these are extant.

That sounds deeply unpleasant. Only either a really dedicated hobbyist with a lot of electronics experience would do it, or someone who thinks they could make money off of it.

And yeah, even worse because of limited instances to dissect.

Raluek
Nov 3, 2006

WUT.

ShittyPostmakerPro posted:

Yeah I know, that was what I was replying to

Oh, I thought you meant that one would replace the whole display with something modern, instead of interfacing with the legacy display and controls.

Regardless, with almost zero market for such a thing (I bet you're one of, like, three dudes who would go "that's neat, gotta get me one") so I'm sure any embedded engineer with the chops will go off and do something else instead.

Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.
Yeah I think that's the problem :(. I think there are only few people left who own one of these cars and does not want a mad tyte JDM double DIN dvd player. And most of those people are going to be the 'has to be original numbers matching ' type

Seat Safety Switch
May 27, 2008

MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.

Pillbug
Yeah, I think I'm the only guy lovingly restoring and modifying a stock '92 Civic tape deck; there's no way the core audience is going to put in more effort than a recap job for a Soarer.

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Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.
Plus, most of the core audience are either guys in their 50/60's, or guys in their early 20's who just wanted a £1000-£2000 :rice: JDM coupe with a 1JZ or a V8 and can't afford a Mk4 Supra.

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