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Upon further research, it appears that the Ford Duratec V6 was based upon the Mazda K-series V6, and the Jaguar AJ series was based on the same platform as well. Both the Ford and Jag motors are available in 2.5 or 3.0 litre varieties. The Duratec 2.5 was used in the Mondeo in the UK. These engines sell used for as little as £100 and produce 170hp. An advantage to using the Jaguar motors is that they were offered in RWD cars. Pomp and Circumcized fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Apr 1, 2016 |
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Apr 1, 2016 00:32
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Mazduar!
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Apr 1, 2016 07:19
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Ford sells its new 2.0 ecoboost motor as a crate with harness, ecu amd other shenaniganry. More hp and torque than the renesis motor, should bolt to the trans and is probably small enough to fit with minimal modifications. Just saying.
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Apr 1, 2016 07:30
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Sounds like too much work when you have other cool projects. I do like the sound of a V6 though... would be neat  . Downside is you have to keep the stock ECU to run the dash/hvac  .
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Apr 1, 2016 08:05
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how the gently caress are sr20s so much in the uk? nearly sr20'd my volvo when i got offered a rolled s13 for 500 bucks. (250 quid) IIRC the rx6 six speed is the same gearbox as an s15 so if i were you i would defs be looking at sr20 swapping. gently caress it i'll be in the uk later this year i'll bring one over as carry on lol.
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Apr 1, 2016 08:48
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88h88 posted:Mazduar! Mazdeo  Elmnt80 posted:Ford sells its new 2.0 ecoboost motor as a crate with harness, ecu amd other shenaniganry. More hp and torque than the renesis motor, should bolt to the trans and is probably small enough to fit with minimal modifications. Just saying. I've never heard of or seen anyone selling crate motors in the UK. I feel this may be out of my budget. I'm currently negotiating a seller down from £200 towards £100 for a Mondeo V6 delivered. Big Daddy Keynes posted:how the gently caress are sr20s so much in the uk? nearly sr20'd my volvo when i got offered a rolled s13 for 500 bucks. (250 quid) IIRC the rx6 six speed is the same gearbox as an s15 so if i were you i would defs be looking at sr20 swapping. gently caress it i'll be in the uk later this year i'll bring one over as carry on lol. I guess because of their rarity, their ability to make power, and the  factor. All of the '90s Japanese turbo motors suffer from this. The RB series, JZ series, the 4G63, pretty much everything except the Mitsubishi V6's are going to cost you well into 4 figures.
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Apr 1, 2016 09:47
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Big Daddy Keynes posted:how the gently caress are sr20s so much in the uk? We have a fairly hefty drift tax on all things Japanese that could possibly be chucked sideways into corners. It's annoying really.
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Apr 1, 2016 10:05
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I've negotiated a deal on a cheap 2.5 Duratec the spyder posted:Sounds like too much work when you have other cool projects. I do like the sound of a V6 though... would be neat The issue with the RX8 ECU is that you also need to keep the crank trigger wheel and sensor to read rpm, along with the stock oil pressure and coolant temperature sensors, just to get the gauges to show correctly. Then you will still get a MIL for no O2 sensor, etc etc. I plan on using an arduino with a CAN shield to translate the Ford rpm, road speed, temperature, etc, and then 'fake' any signals which I cannot produce. There's already been a few attempts at this. https://www.cantanko.com/rx-8/reverse-engineering-the-rx-8s-instrument-cluster-part-one/ http://www.madox.net/blog/2008/11/17/reverse-engineering-the-mazda-can-bus-part-1/ I would need an Arduino which could accept the necessary analogue inputs from the Ford sensors, and would need to know the correct PID info. Some of it is listed here: http://www.madox.net/blog/projects/mazda-can-bus/comment-page-1/ Having access to the stock ECU with a running engine is a bonus, as I can log the CAN output to see if there is anything I've missed. Pomp and Circumcized fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Apr 5, 2016 |
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Apr 1, 2016 10:27
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Voting Ford/Jag 3.0 V6 if it's a bolt-up to the current 6-speed. Easy & cheap enough to find and get parts for in the UK. Plus I thought some came factory with supercharger, or am I mistaken? I know the new ones do. I always thought the RX-8 was the perfect all-round coupe let down by the engine, but swapping in a V6 with +50% torque sounds like exactly like what the factory should have done from the start. How much more can you get out of a Duratec staying NA with just cams and remap? EDIT: Well, 2.5 will do. Nice. Jomo fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Apr 1, 2016 |
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Apr 1, 2016 10:35
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Jomo posted:Voting Ford/Jag 3.0 V6 if it's a bolt-up to the current 6-speed. Easy & cheap enough to find and get parts for in the UK. Plus I thought some came factory with supercharger, or am I mistaken? I know the new ones do. I was looking at this, and agree that it's a good, cheap option. The 3.0 engines are around £250+ including all the bits. The good thing about this cheap 2.5 engine is that it's local and will be delivered, it's cheap enough that I can wreck one, or buy another block for mockup, etc, and I can most likely swap to a 3.0 later on for no major cost. The engine won't bolt straight up - it 'almost will'. It will need a spacer to clear the firewall anyway (and some firewall cutting/relocation may be required). Steering rack and sway bar will need to move, but these are common modifications and there are kits in the US to do this for LS swaps. A compact V6 would have been perfect in this car, it's a shame they didn't go down this route, I mean they already had a great 2.5 V6 designed! Modifying the Duratec is a journey into the unknown. I know that 170hp will be 'fine' for now. The 6-speed boxes are known to be fragile (the increased torque from the V6 worries me a little), so the 231hp of the Renesis would be my power goal for this car - I'd rather have it as a useable daily driver with a quirky engine swap than go for maximum power.
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Apr 1, 2016 10:51
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what's the compression ratio like? could you slap on a couple of 2nd hand subaru turbos?  E: my posts in this thread really give credence to my title
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Apr 1, 2016 11:21
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Dang, what would it cost to just rebuild the renesis and fix the problems with it? I know very little about them except they weren't great at release. All that modification for stock power seems like a waste when you could maybe just fix the bad stock parts?
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Apr 1, 2016 12:54
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Larrymer posted:Dang, what would it cost to just rebuild the renesis and fix the problems with it? I know very little about them except they weren't great at release. Full rebuild kits for the Renesis are $1400 USD if the rotors and housings are good, and generally they're not. And they're not easy to get right the first time. A reman engine is $4000+, and I can't see them being cheaper in the UK. It's just not worth it for a cheap car.
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Apr 1, 2016 13:25
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I looked up K-swaps and apparently only some dude in Poland did it. I assume all the miata K-swaps differ too much mechanically to be applicable, much less all the electronics stuff. Most of the RWD swaps I have seen use a s2000 transmission and some other diff that isnt made of glass. None of that is budget conscious, unless wrecked S2K cars are more common in ole blighty than I expect.
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Apr 1, 2016 14:09
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literally a fish posted:what's the compression ratio like? could you slap on a couple of 2nd hand subaru turbos? Looking around online, it appears to be 10:1, which I guess is a bit high for turbo applications. Though if I slap LPG into it then detonation is less of a worry. And yes, I'd almost certainly go for Subaru turbos, given their abundance (thanks, Subaru owners!), reputation (thanks, Subaru!), and size (Thanks, EJ25!). Larrymer posted:Dang, what would it cost to just rebuild the renesis and fix the problems with it? I know very little about them except they weren't great at release. As wallaka said, it's expensive. Around £1200 for a rebuild kit including apex seals. Apparently these motors are flawed in that they don't inject (enough?) oil into the centre of the apex seals. The 2009 onwards had extra oil injectors which performed this function. People have reported much better engine life when adding oil to their fuel tank. I don't know of any modifications which will increase engine life, I believe that every Renesis engine will fail. I can sell this particular engine to cover the cost of the car, and a V6 engine. Most of the project is about me learning basic fabrication skills and working out the CAN related electronics. My ultimate goal is to have a car in which everything works as factory, after a pretty major engine swap (and any piston engine into an RX8 is rather involved). Even when working, the Renesis is gutless for most of the rev range, and has horrible fuel economy (a big factor for us in the UK). The Mondeo is a very popular company/hire car, generally chosen for its cheap running costs. The Duratec V6 will return around 35mpg highway in a Mondeo, compared to mid 20's for the Renesis, though the mpg for the V6 may suffer from the RX8's final drive ratio (4.4:1 compared to 3.7:1 from the Mondeo) PaintVagrant posted:I looked up K-swaps and apparently only some dude in Poland did it. I assume all the miata K-swaps differ too much mechanically to be applicable, much less all the electronics stuff. I was reading up on a Miata undergoing a KL swap, they went straight in with a tubular subframe. Apparently the RX8 is a little more forgiving in this aspect. S2000 parts will go for a premium, anyone with a kit car will want them. Edit: Picking the motor up on monday. When I get to the car, I'll only have a few hours to pull the engine, and will need to provide my own tools. I'm now looking at 'HOW TO REMOVE MONDEO ENGINE' guides and videos. I've so far found that will also need to take the GEM module, transponder (form inside the key) and the receiver for it, along with the associated wiring. Pomp and Circumcized fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Apr 1, 2016 |
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Apr 1, 2016 16:19
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It just seems like that is a tough chassis to get into fabbing up stuff since it sounds like literally everything has to be redone. That's why I suggested the original/modified engine instead of trying to fix all that stuff. I looked into LS swapping one since they handle well supposedly and ran away.  You're a braver man than I.
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Apr 4, 2016 13:34
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It's not going to be easy. The firewall will likely need adjusting to clear the cylinder heads. The subframe is in a dumb spot and requires a custom oil pan. Engine mounts need to be sorted (obviously). I'm hoping the V6 will fit far enough back to clear the steering rack and swaybar (both of which are where a crank pulley would be on a I4). Then comes the custom flywheel, which will likely need to be spaced away from the engine. I've found a company to make a Duratec to RX8 adapter plate for cheap! They specialize in mounting RX8 boxes to Ford engines for kit cars, etc, as they discovered that cheap RX8s are a good source of 6 speed RWD boxes. I will likely need an extra-thick adapter. Buying/pulling the V6 engine tomorrow. Then this project will have to sit on hold for a month while I get my garage sorted. And then maybe another month while I get the green Soarer parted out and removed.
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Apr 4, 2016 16:15
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I need to witness the madness that is going to be this engine swap... I'll bring beer.
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Apr 4, 2016 16:43
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88h88 posted:I need to witness the madness that is going to be this engine swap... I'll bring beer. Where abouts are you? I've been doing a load more research on this engine, and the loving water pump is mounted on the back of the engine, belt driven from one of the intake cams. The water inlet is also on the rear of the engine. For fucks sake, now I will need to relocate that poo poo to the front Should have just bought the AJ30 Jag engine for £100 more which has 50 more horsepower, a front mounted water pump, an intake manifold which will face the correct way without modification, correctly placed engine mounts, and probably a million other things that won't make my life a loving misery. But no, I'm going to put the lovely Mondeo motor in and then complain when it doesn't work because that's the British Way 
Pomp and Circumcized fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Apr 5, 2016 |
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Apr 4, 2016 19:01
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So £100 less and you're giving it a go anyway? Dude... Haha. I'd take the easy way out personally. And Coventry. Need to give the Supra a good few runs to make sure everything's good so once you've got poo poo sorted and you want to rant at someone/cry into a beer while wrenching I'll roll up.
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Apr 4, 2016 19:24
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Well, the engines are cheap enough that I can buy both and sell one on and only lose my time. Ill get it, see how well it fits and what work is needed, if it looks like a pain then I'll buy a jag motor and then another car to put the Duratec in. Edit: oh and the intake is sexy as gently caress on the Duratec. The jag intake is ugly as poo poo. This is somehow more important than power output or ease of installation. Pomp and Circumcized fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Apr 5, 2016 |
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Apr 4, 2016 20:05
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Ughhhhhh the Duratec sounded like wanking trashcan-dwelling skeletons. Probably for the best. It's Mazduar time.
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Apr 5, 2016 19:33
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Late to the party but if your only cons to a 2JZ-GE are weight and length, here's what a 1J looks like in a RX8 bay: (from this old for sale thread I remembered after lurking on this thread) A 2JZ-GE is going to weigh like 150lbs more than a renesis but it looks like you can get it pretty well balanced over the front axle. Move the battery to the truck and you're not in bad shape. Plus, if you get bored with ~220hp you have plenty of options. Transmission would be the biggest problem. It would be awesome if you could get a trans adapter plate and keep the rx8 6spd like you planned. If not, you probably have a w58 or r154 lying around, right?
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Apr 5, 2016 20:24
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That's gorgeous. Awesome build W58's are silly money now. R154s are £1000+ for an old, unknown one. Everyone with a Toyota JZ or UZ series wants a R154. I can get hold of a 2JZ-GE for a few hundred pounds more than an AJ30, but it will have the same power and won't fit as well. I wish there was a decent RWD Japanese Turbo V6. The Mitsubishi models were all transverse, and I've heard not-great things about the VG30DETT.
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Apr 5, 2016 22:10
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ShittyPostmakerPro posted:That's gorgeous. Awesome build Packaging a 30DETT into a RX8 would almost assuredly be an issue. Then, there's actually getting to things when you need to work on them.
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Apr 5, 2016 22:12
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It's also pretty much the only iron block V6 out of every potential V6 I've looked at for this car. I wish I was able to do the AI thing and throw a blown GM 3.8 in there.
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Apr 5, 2016 22:17
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I'm not sure if you mentioned it already, but how much would it cost to source an LS? You can still get one there right? Given your other options it sounds like it would be worth the extra coin over a Ford 3.0 which IIRC have a horrible timing chain design that likes to poo poo itself. Just ask Kastein about them, unless I'm thinking of a different motor.
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Apr 6, 2016 03:46
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ShittyPostmakerPro posted:That's gorgeous. Awesome build Holy poo poo you are right about W58's. It's been a while since I've looked at prices on them, looks like the price has gone through the roof. I could have swore they used to be a couple hundred dollars max. I guess the supply of nonturbo MKIII supra parts cars had to dry up at some point. What about a VQ35? You might have to buy the engine and trans separate but you can definitely find them very cheap if you're patient over here. All aluminum v6, great power, cheap parts. Did you guys get any of the crazy Nissan Y33/Y34 models with the VQ25DET/30DET/whatever? Only other rwd japanese turbo v6 I can think of, probably too obscure to be cheaper than the SR20 option though. moloo fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 04:35
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moloo posted:What about a VQ35? You might have to buy the engine and trans separate but you can definitely find them very cheap if you're patient over here. All aluminum v6, great power, cheap parts. http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Complete-Engines-/33615/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=vq35+engine More expensive than a 2JZ-GTE  . More than a LS1 might be. Which is surprising.leica posted:I'm not sure if you mentioned it already, but how much would it cost to source an LS? You can still get one there right? Given your other options it sounds like it would be worth the extra coin over a Ford 3.0 which IIRC have a horrible timing chain design that likes to poo poo itself. Just ask Kastein about them, unless I'm thinking of a different motor. We mentioned it earlier. They are far too rare and expensive over here and there is no aftermarket parts or support at all. Everything would have to come from the US. I need to pay 10% tax on all car-parts imports (including the shipping cost), and then 20% sales tax on top of that total, so even when the pound is strong against the dollar, it's still expensive to get parts from the US. Pomp and Circumcized fucked around with this message at 12:46 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 12:44
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Couldn't you save money by having a goon just ship you one or something so you don't have to pay taxes? Hell, have someone ship you a truck motor from the US and save even more money. IDK, just throwing poo poo out there, it would be a shame to put a V6 in that thing when a V8 would fit.
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Apr 6, 2016 15:44
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ShittyPostmakerPro posted:http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Complete-Engines-/33615/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=vq35+engine Holy Christ, they are a third the price of a 2jz-gte or LS1 here. Just searching my local craigslist shows a low km JDM VQ35de for $1000 and a 6spd trans for $500. That's £1061. Sometimes you'll even see a VQ35+6spd+everything out of a wrecked car for decently cheaper than that too.
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Apr 6, 2016 18:49
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Go full retarded British patriot and put a lovely rover V8 in. When you're done do me one with a VW TDI please, I've so many people to troll.
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Apr 6, 2016 19:36
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ShittyPostmakerPro posted:In the UK our temperatures are generally between -10C and 25C, neither extreme is a problem for LPG. Going colder may be more of an issue. The problem would be whether your engine can generate enough heat to vapourise the propane fast enough, or rather, if your reducer is large enough to handle it. Seriously over speccing a reducer (i.e. one designed to run a 400hp engine on a 200hp car) would probably help. Even with hot coolant running through them, I've seen pictures of frost forming on the outside of the reducer bodies on humid days, even above 0C. To revive LPG chat from January, the tank itself could have a hard time dealing with the cold. In cold temperatures the liquid propane has a hard time vaporizing, as stated with regards to its use at the engine, but this is also true in the tank. It probably has more of an effect in the cylinders that draw from the vapor space, but the system might have a hard time self pressurizing. They can temporarily run themselves out of available pressure. This is obviously especially a problem on smaller cylinders.
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Apr 6, 2016 19:38
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I can't find a flaw in that assumption, and I agree with you, but I guess that in practice, the requirement for fuel isn't so great in the grand scheme of things. Even at low temperatures, if you jam a load of pressurised propane in a tank and give it a 8mm pipe to flow out of, you'll probably get enough propane flowing down the time to run your engine on.
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Apr 7, 2016 00:23
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leica posted:Couldn't you save money by having a goon just ship you one or something so you don't have to pay taxes? Hell, have someone ship you a truck motor from the US and save even more money. Double posting on my phone.... Any packages received from overseas, even personal mail, are checked by customs. If you send me an engine as a "gift", I will get taxed on its value in the UK. Sad face. The only v8s we have which are affordable are Toyota, rover, and BMW units. And with our fuel prices, I'm not surprised. I believe that over half of our cars are now diesel powered, most are 2.0 litre turbo I4, getting 45-60mpg.
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Apr 7, 2016 00:27
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moloo posted:Holy Christ, they are a third the price of a 2jz-gte or LS1 here. Just searching my local craigslist shows a low km JDM VQ35de for $1000 and a 6spd trans for $500. That's £1061. Sometimes you'll even see a VQ35+6spd+everything out of a wrecked car for decently cheaper than that too. For half the price some of those UK sellers are asking for VQ35's, down here I can pick up a VK45DD V8 ready to go: http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-parts-accessories/nissan/engines/auction-1063685476.htm Not that it would fit in an RX-8 anyway, from a quick look around they're even bigger than the 1UZ.
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Apr 7, 2016 01:03
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ShittyPostmakerPro posted:Double posting on my phone.... Sad face indeed
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Apr 7, 2016 01:07
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I hope I didn't miss a post but has a miata motor with a turbo or supercharger been considered? Probably isn't the power you want but it should fit and I think it'll be reliable enough. I don't know too much about turbo miatas though.
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Apr 7, 2016 02:57
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A turbo BP can make low 200s fairly easily, so that's probably not the worst idea.
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Apr 7, 2016 04:09
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ShittyPostmakerPro posted:Ughhhhhh the Duratec sounded like wanking trashcan-dwelling skeletons. Probably for the best. It's Mazduar time. Yessss... Especially like the news that you've found someone to make a gearbox adapter plate for you. Thought now I'm interested in how much firewall modification you'll have to do to get it to fit in nicely. Plus I look forward to learning more about CAN bus since I know pretty much nothing about it. What are your suspension plans for this btw?
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Apr 7, 2016 10:45
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