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General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

Everybody's working for the weekend

MourningView posted:

The Baylor thing should probably get its own thread if someone who is following the story somewhat closely wants to make one. Otherwise it's going to overwhelm all the not horrifying and depressing college football news, and also me talking about Iowa's offensive line.

Continuation of the discussion in the general thread, but here's as good a writeup as any: http://www.texasmonthly.com/article/silence-at-baylor/

tl;dr version

Texas Monthly posted:

We don’t know yet whether Sam Ukwuachu will be convicted of the charges against him—but we know that the program recently (and eagerly) expressed its intention to add the six-foot-four pass rusher to their rotation at defensive end in time for the season opener at SMU. What we do know is that Baylor took a chance on a player they had every reason to suspect had previously presented a threat to students at another campus, and let Baylor’s students assume the risk that entailed. When a student at Baylor leveled accusations of sexual assault against the player, the school’s investigation—in which the burden of proof is significantly lower than in a court of law—ended without action, despite the fact that the McLennan County District Attorney’s Office found cause to take the matter all the way to a trial on second degree felony charges. We know that officials in Baylor’s football program describe rape accusations against players on the team as “some issues” or “violating a team rule,” the same language they might use to describe a player who broke curfew—even after the player has been accused, indicted, arrested, and, in the case of Tevin Elliott, convicted. We know that the Waco Police Department took months to bring the case to a prosecutor, but that when they did present the case to the DA’s office, the DA took the felony charges all the way to court. We know that the Waco sports media, charged with covering one of the country’s most prominent football programs, failed to report on charges against a much-heralded new transfer for nearly fourteen months, even though those charges were readily accessible to anyone who searched his name at the McLennan County Courthouse. We know that when asked about Ukwuachu a few weeks ahead of his scheduled trial date, rather than acknowledge the charges or decline to comment, Baylor defensive coordinator Phil Bennett told Baylor fans that the team was expecting to have him on the field.

And we know that, when asked about Ukwuachu by the Waco Tribune-Herald after news of the charges finally broke—more than a year after the initial indictment—Baylor head coach Art Briles told reporters, “I like the way we’ve handled it as a university, an athletic department, and a football program.”

Edit: Pretty good timeline of events put together by Jason Kirk of SB Nation.

Relevant news from today:

-Art Briles and Ukwuachu's coach from Boise State Chris Petersen can't seem to agree on how much information on his violent past was conveyed in their conversation when he was seeking a transfer to Baylor. Spoiler- this is going to boil down to Briles saying Petersen may have used some euphemistic language and that he didn't get the full meaning.

-Ukwuachu sentenced to 8 years probation, 6 months in jail.

Relevant (Fully Loaded) discussion questions:

-At what point in the process should Baylor's football program have cut ties with Ukwuachu?

-As the school chose not to expel Ukwuachu at the conclusion of its (woefully inadequate) internal investigation, is there reason to believe Baylor's coaching staff is guilty of anything beyond callous indifference to the victim and to the safety of the student body in keeping Ukwuachu on board?

-Can the coaches be said to have perpetrated a cover up when the indictment was a matter of public record for eight months?

-With the botched or outright disinterested internal sexual assault investigations of football players that we hear about several times every year, it raises the question: are these guys getting off because they're football players, or because the schools are so poorly equipped to deal with this kind of case that they rarely yield results no matter who is being investigated (athlete or not)?

General Dog fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Aug 22, 2015

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shiksa
Nov 9, 2009

i went to one of these wrestling shows and it was... honestly? frickin boring. i wanna see ricky! i want to see his gold chains and respect for the ftw lifestyle
i personally blame Baylor for not disclosing how bad RG3 is at playing quarterback, but if we can nail them on this I'd be okay with it.

sweet thursday
Sep 16, 2012

I hope all of these things eventually seeing the light of day maybe pushes some administrations toward not letting it happen in the first place. Putting "Try not to rape" in your code of conduct doesn't do it

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

Everybody's working for the weekend

sweet thursday posted:

I hope all of these things eventually seeing the light of day maybe pushes some administrations toward not letting it happen in the first place. Putting "Try not to rape" in your code of conduct doesn't do it

Banning alcohol might go a long way.

shiksa
Nov 9, 2009

i went to one of these wrestling shows and it was... honestly? frickin boring. i wanna see ricky! i want to see his gold chains and respect for the ftw lifestyle

sweet thursday posted:

I hope all of these things eventually seeing the light of day maybe pushes some administrations toward not letting it happen in the first place. Putting "Try not to rape" in your code of conduct doesn't do it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM2RUVnTlvs

Metapod
Mar 18, 2012

Frackie Robinson posted:

Banning alcohol might go a long way.

Like from campus?

v2vian man
Sep 1, 2007

Only question I
ever thought was hard
was do I like Kirk
or do I like Picard?
indeed, the mere consumption of alcohol turns a man into a serial assaulter

HOTLANTA MAN
Jul 4, 2010

by Hand Knit
Lipstick Apathy
Man, I thought this was just a weird title for a "bad DeviantArt NFL fanart" thread

Detroit_Dogg
Feb 2, 2008
Aaron Rodgers is gay and lame and oh please cum in me Aaron PLEASE I NEED IT OH STAFFORD YOUR COCK IS NOT WORTHY ONLY THE GAYEST RODGERS PRICK CAN SATISFY MY DESPERATE THROAT
I was a good God fearing baptist until the devil booze turned me into a ramblin' rapin' crime machine

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Detroit_Dogg posted:

I was a good God fearing baptist until the devil booze turned me into a ramblin' rapin' crime machine

I didn't know Georgia Tech was having issues too.

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Enjoy every sandwich.

Smellrose
The scariest part of all of this is that El Penis's smug contempt for Baylor turns out to have been well-founded.

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

Everybody's working for the weekend
Drinking doesn't make predators, but it sure as hell makes prey.

Detroit_Dogg
Feb 2, 2008
Aaron Rodgers is gay and lame and oh please cum in me Aaron PLEASE I NEED IT OH STAFFORD YOUR COCK IS NOT WORTHY ONLY THE GAYEST RODGERS PRICK CAN SATISFY MY DESPERATE THROAT
Imo it's probably the rapists fault

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

Everybody's working for the weekend
I'm sorry I brought us down this road. It's a shame we're collectively so lovely that it's not safe for women to get drunk in public, but you and I both know that's the state of things in many many places.

*This post bought to you by the DAD Council

Wolfy
Jul 13, 2009

Frackie Robinson posted:

Banning alcohol might go a long way.
That's pretty dumb. You can ban it but it's not really going to change anything. Kids will just be getting drunk in even sketchier places and situations.

Ehud
Sep 19, 2003

football.

HOTLANTA MAN posted:

Man, I thought this was just a weird title for a "bad DeviantArt NFL fanart" thread

nah that's called DeviantFART and it goes on our website

http://www.footballandrationalthoughts.com/2015/08/19/deviantfart-peyton-manning/

but back to the scandal - if Art Briles lied about his knowledge of this player's past and it can be proved that he knowingly brought a dangerous player onto the team, what will happen?

I mean, it's not against the rules so it would have to be a punishment based on public pressure and it would be handed down from the school, right? It just sounds like the end of this scandal is, "Man Art Briles is a dick."

v2vian man
Sep 1, 2007

Only question I
ever thought was hard
was do I like Kirk
or do I like Picard?

Frackie Robinson posted:

Drinking doesn't make predators, but it sure as hell makes prey.

your a massive idiot

v2vian man
Sep 1, 2007

Only question I
ever thought was hard
was do I like Kirk
or do I like Picard?
dozens of people came together to cover up a serial assaulter's past and bring him into a situation where he could assault or rape more women. let's solve this problem by telling the women they'll get a fine if they drink

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

Everybody's working for the weekend
I don't literally think banning alcohol would be a practical solution, and it's certainly not a relevant tangent for this thread, so without backing off I said, I do apologize for starting this derail.

But getting back on track, I think it's a bit much to say they covered up this guy's past (Briles' denial that he knew about it is really the first true misdirection), though it's maybe more concerning that they didn't seem to give it a second thought. Throw in the fact that his indictment was a matter of public record, the DC is out there saying "yeah I think we'll get him on the field this year." It's not that they didn't want people to know, it's so far off their radar that it doesn't even occur to them that it could be a thing people care about.

General Dog fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Aug 22, 2015

kayakyakr
Feb 16, 2004

Kayak is true
It took a Texas monthly exposé to reveal that the reason the player want playing was because he was facing indictment for sexual assault.

Briles and staff, when asked, dismissed the questions as, "just some personal stuff".

When a player is facing a jury trial, they should be off the team and off scholarship until it is cleared up. If they're found innocent, then they can rejoin the team. This is like standard procedure stuff.

And don't say that he wasn't on the roster. He was on scholarship and practicing with the team up until 2 weeks ago.

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

Everybody's working for the weekend
I agree with all of that. Their failure to sever all ties with this guy (or at least keep his rear end away from team facilities) the minute the indictment came down is absolutely what deserves the most ridicule here.

The rest of it- the investigation, the lack of concern for the victim's interests, and all that are administrative failings, and I'd venture they have a lot more to do with incompetence than corruption.

General Dog fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Aug 22, 2015

anne frank fanfic
Oct 31, 2005

shiksa posted:

i personally blame Baylor for not disclosing how bad RG3 is at playing quarterback, but if we can nail them on this I'd be okay with it.

No one was crying his rookie season, when he was the best qb in existence, dan snyder and coach ruined him just like the texans o line ruined Superbowl Winning QB David Carr

kayakyakr
Feb 16, 2004

Kayak is true
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-nuENq9AmeSckENpssVafBXZU6N28osZSe4K3nrN-ps/edit?usp=docslist_api

A Google doc with other questionable characters that were recruited by and played at Baylor.

Chichevache
Feb 17, 2010

One of the funniest posters in GIP.

Just not intentionally.
The Baylor community did the Christian thing by giving Ukwuachu a second chance in life.

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

Everybody's working for the weekend

kayakyakr posted:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-nuENq9AmeSckENpssVafBXZU6N28osZSe4K3nrN-ps/edit?usp=docslist_api

A Google doc with other questionable characters that were recruited by and played at Baylor.

Ever noticed how all the top teams have like 15 players arrested every year? If this Baylor thing even registers with anyone as out of step with the sport as a whole, I don't know what they've been watching.

anne frank fanfic
Oct 31, 2005
If people think an accidental rape or two is a sign of anything BUT an incoming championship then i got two lines for you: baylors D line and O line being the best in the country besides mich st and even our corners might be below average aka 2016 champ

buddhanc
Feb 16, 2010

Goddamn these baylor fans are going full on Penn State victim blaming all over the internet. They're saying people are angry at Briles because they're jealous of Baylor's success. Hehe

Spacebump
Dec 24, 2003

Dallas Mavericks: Generations

buddhanc posted:

Goddamn these baylor fans are going full on Penn State victim blaming all over the internet. They're saying people are angry at Briles because they're jealous of Baylor's success. Hehe

I can't believe fans are trying to defend Baylor. I guess everyone else is just jealous of their bowl losses.

Spacebump fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Aug 22, 2015

Ghost of Reagan Past
Oct 7, 2003

rock and roll fun
Spencer Hall, as usual, has a very good article.

quote:

There a lot of maybes in the Baylor case. Maybe someone should have been up front about this from the start: we gave someone who we knew was at the time at least to be considered a "troubled player" a second chance, and know it. Maybe, if they didn't know it, they should have asked more. Maybe the minute anyone at the university realized the player in question was under investigation for sexual assault should have been the time to put the prospective player and your relationship with them on pause pending the outcome of the trial.

Maybe that player and the accuser shouldn't have been in the same classes after the investigation started. Maybe she shouldn't have been the one who had to move her schedule. Maybe someone should have thought of this. Maybe someone didn't want to think of this, or maybe everyone just turned just far enough to the side to only see exactly as much as they wanted to see. Maybe your internal investigation of the whole thing was, to say the least, shoddy and piss-poor.

Maybe a paper in the area should have looked into it. Maybe another administrator should have asked a question or two about it. Maybe the accuser shouldn't have had her scholarship reduced in light of the situation she was going through at the time. Maybe Phil Bennett, the defensive coordinator, should have asked a question or two, especially since he's the guy who said Ukwuachu was looking like he was going to start returning despite being on trial for sexual assault at the time of his comments. Maybe someone should have figured all this out ahead of time at a university level.

Maybe we should just stop trusting coaches altogether. Maybe even if Art Briles is accommodating and has a great accent maybe he is still a coach. And maybe the first priority for a coach will always be winning and maybe, just maybe, that's going to override everything else. Maybe he didn't know, and maybe he did, but even in service of ignorance maybe that's not enough to excuse everyone in an institution half-turning away from the ugly fact of an alleged sexual assault that just became a convicted sexual assault.

Maybe don't put yourself in a position where another coach has to air out your laundry to save their own house from the stench. Maybe don't do that to a coach who isn't even at that school anymore, and has nothing to lose by telling the truth.

Maybe, even in a haze of the kind of privileged ignorance that can surround the head of an organization, he should just say something this simple: whatever happened, we hosed up. Not "mistakes were made," not "we'll improve our processes," but something that simple: We. hosed. Up. (Maybe not in those un-Baptist words, but certainly that sentiment.)

Maybe a complete admission of fault and error of culpability, without reservations, for the football program's role in this will be enough to make it something less than a stain threatening to unwind a lot of the positives surrounding what is otherwise as good a moment in history as Baylor football -- and the university as a whole-- has had. Maybe don't hedge on what Petersen told you specifically or not and retreat into the legalities of a statement. Maybe just full up get super cowboy-like, put on your best twang, and stop a buck dead on the desk of the head coach, even with the problem being one obviously larger than just the football program.

Maybe do that for the women in the stands who cross the river to watch your football games. I dunno. Maybe do that now.

anne frank fanfic
Oct 31, 2005
I cant believe a rapist and his accuser were separated from each other in classes and then the rapist was convicted and sent to jail. This is just horrible management of the situation. They probably shouldve made sure he went to jail... Oh.. Hm. Perhaps they should have separated them from being in the same classes during the investigation.. Er, wait. My erectboner is ready for Baylor champ 2016, the only true and deserved corn fed grass fed beef stew home grown champion team.

Pakled
Aug 6, 2011

WE ARE SMART

anne frank fanfic posted:

I cant believe a rapist and his accuser were separated from each other in classes and then the rapist was convicted and sent to jail. This is just horrible management of the situation. They probably shouldve made sure he went to jail... Oh.. Hm. Perhaps they should have separated them from being in the same classes during the investigation.. Er, wait. My erectboner is ready for Baylor champ 2016, the only true and deserved corn fed grass fed beef stew home grown champion team.

The administration didn't separate them in classes. The victim had to bear the burden of changing her schedule and eventually transfer from the school because Baylor wouldn't do anything to help her.

anne frank fanfic
Oct 31, 2005


baylors a terrible school for sending a rapist to jail and not letting the player play during the investigation while Known Rapist Jamie S Winston gets unlimited crab legs for life and a free champ and our playoff spot

anne frank fanfic fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Aug 23, 2015

Thoguh
Nov 8, 2002

College Slice
Regardless of what they knew beforehand. Baylor, the institution, not just the football program, still was reprehensible after the rape. Not knowing doesn't impact that.

anne frank fanfic
Oct 31, 2005
(David Smoak) Have you read Art Briles’ statement about Sam Ukwauchu and the conversation he (Coach Briles) had with Chris Petersen?

(Tony Heath) Yes, I have, and what Art said in his statement is exactly what I was told by the Boise State coaching staff and also shared that same information with Baylor’s assistant coaches.

Art Briles was right, nox man can come back or i'll just be repeating dumb pro baylor platitudes to myself while Baylor wins the National Championship this year allowing me to retire from sports fandom (After cowboys, texans, rockets all win too and navy loses cause they are bad)

kayakyakr
Feb 16, 2004

Kayak is true
Kinda creepy weird that the hs coach is claiming the college coaches were calling and talking to him. That's... I mean who the hell is he that he would be kept in the loop?

Chilichimp
Oct 24, 2006

TIE Adv xWampa

It wamp, and it stomp

Grimey Drawer
At this point, I'd like to have the Baylor apologists defend the schools actions after Ukwauchu was charged with rape.

Thoguh
Nov 8, 2002

College Slice

Chilichimp posted:

At this point, I'd like to have the Baylor apologists defend the schools actions after Ukwauchu was charged with rape.

Naw man, the fact that no one explicitly told them in written form that this guy had an issue with domestic violence totally excuses everything Baylor did both before and after the rape. Duh.

Ben Has Tiny Weenus
Feb 17, 2007
MSU Will Not Be National Champions

So I really should learn to shut the hole under my nose.
After this shocking new revelation, I can safely say gently caress Baylor about 5% less.

However, that is still a whole lot of gently caress Baylor.

General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

Everybody's working for the weekend

Chilichimp posted:

At this point, I'd like to have the Baylor apologists defend the schools actions after Ukwauchu was charged with rape.

I'm only defending (just downplaying really) the actions of the football team, not of the administration. Yes, the football team should have kicked this guy off when he was indicted, but it was administration's job to kick the guy out of school, and to take care of the victim's intetests.

And I don't see a lot of evidence that administration handled the case with kid gloves because the guy was a football player, as has been the implication in a lot of the reporting on this story. I think its equally likely that they just sucked at their jobs. That you had non police being asked to handle a police matter.

General Dog fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Aug 24, 2015

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Chokes McGee
Aug 7, 2008

This is Urotsuki.

Detroit_Dogg posted:

I was a good God fearing baptist until the devil booze turned me into a ramblin' rapin' crime machine

mods please change my name to Ramblin' Rapin' Crime Machine, tia

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