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I really hope those ending spoilers are true because it'd mean I called it like a two loving years ago and I'm never right about these things.
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Aug 26, 2015 16:05
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Mr. Fortitude posted:The third ending has been discovered. The only part of all this that bothers me is the part where Venom Snake made Outer Heaven. All of the rest is basically what I expected ever since the game's reveal and the moment in the hospital where Kaz says, "What about him?" I think it's a pretty good twist there. But Venom Snake taking Big Boss's role in MG1 is just silly. Maybe it plays out a lot better in the actual game. One way to find out, I guess!
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Aug 28, 2015 18:43
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The story of MGSV basically just hits every single prequel stumbling block. I think my perception of its story is probably colored by the fact that I don't think we needed a Big Boss game after MGS3. Like, at all. That game covered the whole arc: it took Naked Snake from young, idealistic soldier to disillusioned and broken, and we could easily extrapolate where he is at the end of MGS3 to his fall into villainy. Peace Walker is a really fun game and I enjoyed it, but its story didn't really add anything to the series mythology. MGSV does the exact same thing as Peace Walker--telling another story in between MGS3 and Metal Gear without actually doing anything to further connect MGS3 to Metal Gear. And that doesn't bother me all that much, because I just don't think any of the story between MGS3 and Metal Gear actually needed to be told in the first place. I'm a little disappointed, sure, but at least it's a really fun game to play and I get to collect a ton of '80s music and listen to it while I fulton dudes so I'm content.
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Sep 4, 2015 16:23
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What are the chances the big cut final mission (Episode 51) will be DLC at some point in the near future? Kojima is still technically employed by Konami and they probably have the formerly-KojiPro team working on DLC (because why wouldn't they). I could easily see "THE FINAL EPISODE DLC, see how the story truly ends, $9.99" coming before the end of 2015. That would be depressing, of course.
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Sep 4, 2015 19:18
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Oxxidation posted:Not as written. That cut content features an entire new free-roam zone and the battle against Metal Gear Gundam would bring even top-of-the-line gaming PC's to their knees. I doubt Kojima is going to be doing anything for the next thee months besides trying to find work elsewhere before Konami gives him the boot. I could actually see a new free-roam zone being fair DLC that I would willingly pay for, so you're right, it probably isn't going to happen. That story content really does need to make it back into the game, though, somehow.
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Sep 4, 2015 19:27
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Mr. Fortitude posted:Oh I can't wait to hear how you'll justify Quiet's design. It's pretty obvious she was just eye candy and the whole photosynthetic thing was thrown in at the last minute because Kojima probably didn't expect the backlash towards her design. I think the photosynthetic thing was probably there from the start, but that it was also likely intended as justification for her design (maybe even just subconsciously). Like, I don't think it was thrown in after the backlash or anything, but I also think it's supposed to be justification for having her wear very little. Just the way this game's camera direction treats both Quiet and the female Skulls is enough to cause me not to give Kojima the benefit of the doubt on this one.
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Sep 8, 2015 21:16
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Mr. Fortitude posted:I think Hideo Kojima gets way too much credit for his writing roles by the fans, frankly. He's not a good writer. The games which people consider to have good stories are the ones he co-wrote with Tomokazu Fukushima, who also wrote Ghost Babel on his own. MGS 4, PW and MGS V he had Shuyo Murata as a co-writer and all three games have been criticized for the story, although PW stands above MGS 4 and MGS V. This is 100% true. Kojima is not a good writer. He's an excellent game designer and director, but not a good writer. (Incidentally, this is why it's extra disappointing that Silent Hills is dead. Pairing a designer like Kojima with del Toro's writing and stylistic talent would've resulted in something absolutely fascinating.)
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Sep 9, 2015 13:30
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Alexander DeLarge posted:I want this. Obsidian structure/player choice with the backing of Kojima? It'd be GOTYAY Whatever Kojima does next, I hope he's given almost unlimited reign as a game designer, and is reigned in real tightly on pretty much everything else. The guy makes excellent game systems, with tons of ways to play around with them and have fun and have a satisfying experience, but his writing, story choices, and project management skills are... questionable. Like, I don't want him to have no input on story--I think having Kojima collaborate with another writer often leads to great results (see: MGS 1 through 3)--just, y'know, don't give him free reign there or you end up with <insert nanomachines/parasites hyperbole here>. Actually, give him free reign over the soundtrack, too (obviously he isn't composing it, but let him pick the composer and/or licensed music).
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Sep 11, 2015 17:52
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Machinegunboyo posted:The more I think about it, the more I feel the twist would have worked way better if the real Big Boss was actually dead. Everything thereafter would have been a desperate attempt at keeping the legend alive, working with the game/series placing great emphasis on memes/languages and how a simple name like Big Boss can serve to be the ultimate propaganda tool. Venom Snake's Outer Heaven uprising would have been a perversion of Big Boss' will that in itself was a perversion of the will of the Boss, adding a bit more tragedy to the whole affair. The Real big Boss still being alive cheapens the whole affair imo. I like the real Big Boss being alive because it lets him fall very, very far--ultimately giving his phantom the same mission given to the Boss (assuming that theory is true), the same mission that destroyed Big Boss and sent him on the path that led him this far, is extremely poetic and powerful. Ultimately I really like the Venom Snake twist--I'm mostly disappointed in the rest of the story, not that part.
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Sep 11, 2015 18:16
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Machinegunboyo posted:What bothers me about this is that the Boss ultimately sacrificed herself for her country, whilst Venom is essentially sacrificing himself for one man - Big Boss. Whilst it's a small detail I do feel it makes a big difference in that Venom's plight just seems a lot more trivIal in comparison. To me, at least, that makes Big Boss even worse by comparison--he's essentially molded, sculpted, and ultimately destroyed a man's life just in service of his "legend." It wasn't to save a nation, it was to save an ultimately twisted ideology. Really, the only part of this that is truly incongruous in my reading is the version of Big Boss we get at the end of MGS4, where he was basically "right all along." MGSV really followed through on showing us that Big Boss is a demon. He's not the murderous, violent demon we expected to see him become, but rather manipulative, deceitful, and remarkably self-absorbed. I don't think the execution was at all perfect, but I think the idea of it is pretty excellent.
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Sep 11, 2015 18:32
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Machinegunboyo posted:I think you're right in that perhaps the execution was the real problem. The idea itself isn't bad but it just seemed so tacked on the way it was played out. What's interesting is just how effective that final scene is. The extra scenes in Mission 46 and the true ending are extremely well done. It's just that a lot of the game is less successful, and it just barely doesn't give us enough of the implications of what Big Boss allowed to happen to Venom. I like that we're asked to fill in the blanks ourselves but what it leaves us with at the end--"actually the final boss of Metal Gear 1 was Venom, not Big Boss"--requires us to do just a bit too much work to really make into a satisfying revelation. I wish the rest of the game was as effective, on a narrative level, as Mission 46 and the Mother Base infection scenes.
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Sep 11, 2015 18:49
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I really want to know the track name for the song that plays over the final scenes of the true ending, where Venom punches the mirror. It's good stuff.
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Sep 11, 2015 19:25
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Hell yes, thank you.
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Sep 11, 2015 19:26
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Discendo Vox posted:One complication of analysis is that the game provides information that suggests Venom's conversion was voluntary, and contradictory evidence suggesting it wasn't. I don't remember any indication that it might've been voluntary. I know Ocelot says that Venom would've wanted it and that he was already willing to sacrifice his life for Big Boss, but I don't remember anything saying, "He knew this is what was happening and agreed to it."
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Sep 12, 2015 21:55
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Kin posted:Wait, so Is Venom supposed to be the crazy Big Boss from MG1 with the real Big Boss being the one you "kill" in MG2? Yes, that is exactly it. The implication, I think, is that when "Big Boss" starts contacting you on a different frequency (and subsequently lying to you), that's Venom Snake, not the real Big Boss. Snak posted:Right, sorry, it was in South Africa. At this point, I'm just taking Outer Heaven as a philosophy. Wherever soldiers can be soldiers, free of national affiliation and national loyalties, that is Outer Heaven. I mean, that's not strictly how the games have ever stated it, but it makes enough sense to me that I'm just going with it.
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Sep 15, 2015 22:25
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cargohills posted:I'm surprised about the unpopularity of MGSV's story. I guess I'd like if there was more to it, but I think (barring maybe some scenes in MGS4) that it's cutscenes are the absolute peak of the series. Previous games in the series often had their cutscenes drag on for far too long and they weren't shot very interestingly. I think a lot of the complaints I've seen come from people who wanted MGSV to be Big Boss Makes Outer Heaven from MG1 and Goes Full Grimdark Villain: The Game. The quality of the game's cutscenes basically has no bearing on that complaint, because the story they ultimately wanted isn't the one they got. Those aren't all of the complaints, mind you. The most valid ones have to do with the story being incomplete--not just that it feels incomplete, but that we know it's incomplete. There are plot threads that are set up and never resolved, and it isn't just that they're never resolved, but that there was a bunch of planned stuff that didn't make it into the game that would've resolved it. While that doesn't really affect the complaints from people who wanted to see Big Boss, as /v/ puts it, "go nuclear," it's the root of a lot of people's disappointment (my own mild disappointment included). (Seriously, though. I drop in and read /v/ every now and again because I clearly have no self-respect and I'm baffled by how literally they appear to have taken that one "Nuclear" trailer.)
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Sep 16, 2015 20:44
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Snak posted:It's obviously a loving horn of human bone sticking out of your brain, to use THIS GAME's analogy. Wait, is that supposed to be human bone? I thought it was a chunk of metal in his head. I figured all the human bone pieces were tiny fragments/teeth.
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Sep 21, 2015 22:58
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SPACE HOMOS posted:I also listened to that youtube personality superbunnyhop's video on the game. He should learn how to not sound like a drone while reading. He also goes on saying things like "how can these SILLY characters in MGS3 be EVIL later on?? I don't believe it!!" and "They don't explain anything!!!" So what I got out of his review is that he doesn't want to think for himself and wants Kojima to explain everything. Last time the fans demanded everything to be explain was MGS4 and look how that turned out. Plus the characters in metal gear aren't supposed to be cut and dry. I dunno, I think he deserves more credit than that. Sure, he doesn't have a great radio voice, but his analysis and reviews are very well-considered. He's more than happy to think for himself (see his video on MGS2)--it's just that there wasn't a ton to go on. My take on it is this: The point with the "MGS3 support team becomes the Patriots" is that it didn't really feel earned. We went from them being the goofy sidekicks in MGS3 (with the revelation that SIGINT was the Darpa Chief, of course) to being world-changing, control-freak masterminds in MGS4, without anything really bridging that gap. It'd be one thing if we got a few hints that, say, Para-Medic was more than just a film-geek doctor in MGS3, but the truth is that Kojima probably had no idea they were the Patriots when he wrote MGS3. Peace Walker does nothing to bridge the gap, either, though MGSV's portrait of Zero in the tapes does a lot that helps (and I think Bunnyhop addresses that, if I remember correctly). It's not that I don't believe that the MGS3 support team could change enough to become the morally-bankrupt figures MGS4 painted them as, just that we're only ever told that it happened, and never even showed hints as to how they got there. It's unsatisfying. To put it another way: expecting the player to connect the dots is fine (and may even be good) if there are more than two dots to connect. Doesn't he also make the point that basically any revelation of the Patriots' identity in MGS4 was bound to be disappointing compared to the mystery set up in MGS2? Harrow fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Sep 29, 2015 |
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Sep 29, 2015 20:43
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ImpAtom posted:There absolutely are. People remember her film geek conversations and forget the times she goes all mad doctor and talks about how great it would be to clone Snake HINTHINT.\ That's fair about Para-Medic. I remember when I played MGS3 and that conversation happened, I thought of it only as a wink-wink, nudge-nudge reference to the eventual clones, rather than a serious character beat. I'm not sure I agree that Ocelot killing SIGINT necessarily points to SIGINT being one of the founders of the Patriots. I mean, we know now that's why Ocelot killed him, but up until MGS4 we didn't really know much about Ocelot's own involvement with the Patriots. In MGS2, the "Ocelot" personality seems to be on the Patriots' side, while the "Liquid" personality is the one that wants to take out the Patriots, so to connect the dots from "Ocelot killed SIGINT in MGS1" to "he was doing that to strike at the Patriots" seems like a leap until MGS4 happens. It doesn't mean that Kojima didn't plan that--you're right about that--but I'm not sure it's a strong indication that he did, either. There are plenty of reasons Ocelot might want to kill someone.
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Sep 29, 2015 20:53
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ImpAtom posted:I think you're forgetting the phone conversation at the end of MGS though. He specifically killed SIGNIT because of who he was and SIGNIT knew Ocelot's 'true identity.' Even if you assume that Ocelot was betraying Solidus (which he was, he was betraying everyone), he still killed the Darpa Chief on the exact orders of the dude who wanted to stop the Patriots. You're right, I was forgetting that conversation. Maybe where I differ is that I find "the MGS3 support cast eventually became affiliated with the Patriots" much easier to swallow than "the MGS3 support cast were the original Patriots" given the context we have. I actually think MGSV helped that a lot with the Zero tapes, as it made it a lot clearer what actually happened with the Patriots and how good intentions spiraled out of control--it was exactly the context I needed to believe that the MGS3 cast became the Patriots. It wasn't a satisfying revelation to me in MGS4 because it was such a big thing to be given comparatively light foreshadowing--though, then again, maybe it's just because the reveal happened in a 30-minute conversation played over an orange-tinted PowerPoint, so maybe that has more to do with why it was sort of a dud for me.
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Sep 29, 2015 21:03
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ImpAtom posted:Yeah, I can totally understand that. I think the tapes didn't bother me because to me they weren't any meaningfully different from Codec conversations except I could play while they were going on, but I can see how it bothers people. The tapes actually didn't bother me. MGS4's "cutscenes that are pretty much monologues over PowerPoint presentations" did, though. The tapes really aren't much different from Codec conversations except probably better, like you note, because they don't interrupt play. SPACE HOMOS posted:When the games end with secret conversations its to make the player go "OH poo poo!!" and set up the possibility of a sequel, hence why MGS1 ends this way. There is also the fact that explaining everything makes its harder to write sequels because ultimately the writer would look back and want to change some things. Kojima does this with every game. Y'know, now that I think about it, I think pretty much all of my issues with the MGS series's story revolve around MGS4 being, ultimately, clumsy, overwrought, and unsatisfying (with the exception of its pretty much pitch-perfect final boss fight). I've got complex opinions on MGSV like just about everyone, but my issues with the series's central mysteries come not from what the answers end up being, but the hamhanded way they were revealed in MGS4.
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Sep 29, 2015 21:56
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kaesarsosei posted:I trawled through 25 pages of threads and the general MGS thread seems to be inactive. Story-wise you're going to be completely over your head. But that also doesn't really matter. MGSV doesn't center around its story in the way other MGS games do and you can enjoy it just fine by sitting back, letting the weirdness wash over you, and enjoying some sweet stealth action. Gameplay-wise it's pretty different from every other MGS game so previous experience doesn't matter there.
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Dec 7, 2016 15:02
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Snak posted:Oh man, now I'm really sad there isn't a system where you can impersonate key players in missions as long as you recruit someone who looks like them. That would add a whole cool new element to replaying missions and recruiting guys. That would be such a Kojima thing to implement, too.
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Dec 9, 2016 18:23
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2house2fly posted:As I understand it, "character development" means characters changing as a result of the events of the story. Luke Skywalker going from a farmboy to a Jedi knight etc. Seems weird to claim this game has none, off the top of my head Quiet goes from trying to kill Snake to dying for him, and Miller pursues revenge then gets it finds it was good for nothing. And yeah, D-Dog is a cute puppy absorbed by the war machine and turned into a killer. Character development works best when we see what motivates it and get to watch it happen on-screen. For example, Final Fantasy VIII definitely has its characters change--Squall is a totally different person at the end than he is at the beginning--but it essentially happens all at once, in the time it takes the player to take out disc 2 and put in disc 3. That's not good character development. Really, the whole open world thing kinda hamstrung MGSV in that department anyway. The story's just so chopped up (and let's not even talk about chapter 2) that it's hard for anything to land with any real impact. Mr. Fortitude posted:Yeah, 2 was meant to be his last Metal Gear game and he wanted his team to take over the reigns afterwards. Then they were having problems so he took over 3. Then fans sent him death threats for not making 4 so he made 4. Then I guess he felt compelled to do Peace Walker and V afterwards and look how that turned out for him. I mean, Kojima has said every Metal Gear game since the first MGS would be the last. The ending to MGS1 was supposed to be the last we'd see of Solid Snake, for example. I'm glad he got to make 2 and 3, at least, especially 3.
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Dec 13, 2016 19:15
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2house2fly posted:Everyone says this but I really doubt it. Big Boss sure says "you are part of my legend, this is good" but that's not the last thing that happens in the ending- Venom Snake then sees himself in the mirror covered in blood, punches the mirror, and walks away into darkness. Those positive words(said by someone who's a villain the rest of the series) are followed up by a bunch of negative imagery. While he also walks off to his death, which Big Boss appears to have ordered, doing to Venom exactly what he hated the US for doing to the Boss. Thing is, I loving love the idea of the twist. I really do. I think it's brilliant and I think it's the best way to show us Big Boss's final descent into villainy: show us Big Boss becoming exactly what he hated the most. I just wish it had been pulled off better. Like, what if Chapter 2 had had more original missions, maybe a couple of smaller, GZ-sized new maps to explore rather than a whole third open world. It takes place over the course of a few years, Venom Snake continuing to build up MSF after defeating Skull Face, but as he does, he starts to have flashbacks that don't line up with his identity as Big Boss. He starts to remember who he really is, but it's subtle, weird, he doubts his own perceptions, starts to become paranoid. Once you do enough missions where you trigger flashbacks, another mission shows up, with no prompting from another character, where Venom decides to go to "where it all started" and you head back to Camp Omega. When you get there, somehow it's populated with soldiers--your soldiers, all armed with tranquilizer guns, and if you listen in, they think this is an exercise, keeping them sharp, sort of a "can you catch the one and only Big Boss if he tries to sneak by you?" And sneaking through Camp Omega doesn't trigger Big Boss flashbacks, but flashbacks to what the medic was doing at the time. It ends with Ocelot, because of course he saw this coming, waiting for you at the center of the camp with a tape. He says, "I think you're ready to hear this," and hands it to Venom, and Venom puts it in a tape player. We don't hear the audio, but it triggers the final flashback, which is just MGSV's Mission 46, escape the hospital again, only this time with the truth at the end. Then we see the true ending exactly as it was in the released MGSV, because drat it, that's a loving great scene. The mirror smash, he walks off into the darkness, that's chilling, and it'd be even better if it felt earned. Something like that, I think, would've required minimal new assets (hell, you can even cut the smaller, GZ-sized maps and have all the Chapter 2 missions just send you back to Afghanistan and Africa, just as long as there are more new missions than there were) while also doing a much better job of making Venom's realization into a story in and of itself, and doing a better job of explaining why Mission 46 suddenly appears. Harrow fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Dec 14, 2016 |
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Dec 14, 2016 15:06
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If I was going to suggest bigger changes to the story, I think I'd also drop the parasite thing entirely. I get where Kojima was going with it, but any thematic resonance got lost in the copious sci-fi technobabble. I think Tretij Rebenok (whose name I'm not going to type again and just say Mantis) was a much better MacGuffin. This kid with amazing powers who is such a strong empath that, as it turns out, he isn't the puppet master but the puppet, that is fantastic, and resonates with what happens to Venom. He's taken over by people with strong negative emotions, strong desires for revenge or destruction, and that also ties into the theme of negative emotions taking someone over and turning them into a demon. Drop the parasite thing altogether. Make li'l Mantis (and the ability to control Sahelanthropus through him, maybe even bigger things, entire nations' militaries and military tech) the big world-ending threat instead. It might not make as much of a statement about cultures and nations, but it would really amplify the human-scale themes of the game, and that would've been very cool. Snak posted:It should have ended with Venom fatal ripping the horn out of his head to stab skullface in the head with it. Then they both die. Skullface's mask in tatters makes him the mirror image of Venom. Yeah, that's the kind of thing I don't really need an explanation for, but I like that Big Boss sending Venom to die in his place at Outer Heaven makes Big Boss do to Venom what was done to The Boss, the betrayal that sent Big Boss on this journey to begin with. "It's like poetry, it rhymes" - master writer George Lucas (although in this case I actually mean it sincerely, it's legit poetic) Harrow fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Dec 14, 2016 |
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Dec 14, 2016 15:21
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Terminally Bored posted:Isn't BD the game where they ran out of money 2/3 into the story and went "ok, so now it's a time loop and you have to play it 9 times again"? Yeah basically, only it's four times and by the time we got it in the West they added the ability to turn off random encounters, and added a bunch of new side quests and super fun optional boss fights to the loops. It's still tedious (and highlights how boring the game's dungeon design is) but the side quests are fun enough that it's still worth doing all the loops. The final chapter has some of my favorite RPG boss fights in a long time thanks to those optional bosses. The bosses you fought to get your job classes throughout the game start teaming up in groups of two, three, and eventually full groups of four, with clever interactions between their abilities that make for some really clever and strategic fights.
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Dec 14, 2016 15:28
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Ambivalent posted:The whole point of Bravely Default is that you're supposed to be jarred into thinking for yourself instead of following the quest markers. You can reach the 'end' of the game like 1/4th through the first part of the story if you really want to. By the second time you're 'repeating' the game, it's started to lay on pretty heavy clues as to what you're actually doing wrong. That said, to get the true ending (which is really great and has an awesome boss fight), you have to do everything the loving fairy says for four full loops. Kinda goes against the title of the game, really. You just have to go all the way for the true ending, and there are only four loops at most. Really, though, doing all four loops is worth it just for the side quests and optional boss fights, in my opinion. THE AWESOME GHOST posted:Kinda funny that the game does a terrible job of setting this up. Venom was even betrayed by his "Country" the same way. Yeah, that's why most of my ideas for improving the story (y'know, not like that would ever happen, but throwing ideas around) are intended to emphasize this. It's a much, much stronger theme than anything having to do with Skullface's parasites, even if it doesn't lend itself to quite as many lofty speeches about language and culture. And Kojima just left it lying there on the floor! And I really think li'l Mantis would've been a much more interesting MacGuffin. The idea of a kid with insanely strong reality-bending psychic powers who is such a strong empath that he can't help but be taken over by people with strong negative emotions is the perfect "world-ending superweapon" for a game about Venom Snake being used as a puppet despite everyone seeing him as a legendary leader with this insane cult of personality--except it isn't his personality, and he's just a decoy, just like Kid Mantis's power isn't really his own and he's just being used as a puppet by whoever has the strongest desire for revenge. Plus, the focus on negative emotions could've played in nicely to the "men becoming demons" thing Kojima seemed to want to do, with Skullface and others embracing their worst impulses, their darkest feelings, to control Mantis. Like, "insanely powerful psychic kid can't control his powers and can be used to control military technology or mind-control an entire national military" would have been a way better plot than "parasites that kill you if you speak English."
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Dec 15, 2016 15:43
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