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PerpetualSelf posted:Colombia has now decided to offer free Colombian citizenship to all Venezuelans. Oh man you're hosed, specially because a lot of "undesirable" people will take that chance to go and live somewhere else, and by undesirable I mean either criminals, people with no education, or just venezuelans wanting to be charity parasites. People with educations or means are already somewhere else or just can't move. Labradoodle posted:The reporters say that "venezuelans will be given colombian citizenship" but the colombian minister says pretty clearly that their aim is to keep families together, so spouses and family members of colombians will be free to apply for citizenship. Now this is a lot more sensible, and a pretty cool move. It's not like spouses and close families of colombians would've had a hard time moving there but outright getting citizenship means any colombian in Venezuela can move back to their country for their own good, with their loved ones. PerpetualSelf posted:I think this is a dangerous precedent as a Colombian i'm not in favor of it. It could lead to a massive invasion of Venezuelans in Colombia that could overload all our social safety nets and infrastructure. This is kidna dumb though. Really, go to war? I'll point out once again that when things were really lovely in Colombia, there was a massive Colombian exodus to Venezuela and while some people back then (and, looks like, right now) were against it, I think both countries are too close in culture and geography to not be as friendly as possible with each other. Hell my dad was Colombian (but I never knew the guy  ) so I'm glad the migrations happened.Fuschia tude posted:And she's OK? Are they very courteous kidnappers in Venezuela? There are a lot of kidnappings in Venezuela, and specially in Caracas. She was just returning from visiting her other daughter in Santo Domingo, and the taxi she had reserved to take her from the airport to my mom's house failed her, so a Military guard working at the airport found her a Taxi. Well, turns out the taxi did a loop, the soldier that had called it jumped in, and they kidnapped her. She gave her a few dollars she had left, they took her suitcase and took her picture threatening that if she told anyone they would kill her and her family, and dropped her in the highway. Luckily another Taxi saw her and brought her to my mom's home (and charged my mom 5 times more than the usual fare) All in all not bad for a kidnapping. A couple I'm friends with got their house broken into, they got tied and threatened and the guys doing the robbery actually got away in their own car, with their things and their loving dog. Good news was that two years later they found the dog in an open market.
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Aug 31, 2015 07:59
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El Impulso, a newspaper out of Barquisimeto in Lara state, has an interesting article up today describing the apparent lack of impartiality at some of the state's new voting centers. The article points out that 81 of the state's voting centers are located in buildings that are owned and operated by the PSUV. For example, one of the centers in Barquisimeto houses a clinic, a dorm for Cuban doctors working in misiones, and a local headquarters for the People's Guard. Some of the centers are housed in buildings that have names honoring PSUV officials; some of the centers are named after former Lara governor Luis Reyes Reyes, and there's one center called Por Aqui Paso Chavez [Chavez Came Through Here]. The MUD's campaign manager in Lara pointed out that traditionally, voting centers were set up in educational institutions, but that "that has changed". Also, Maduro is in Vietnam and he said a little while ago that he had evidence that the Colombian government is planning to assassinate him. He said that he'd show the evidence later.
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Aug 31, 2015 16:51
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Purpose-built voting centers seems like a big waste, but sharing them with obviously partisan institutions is even worse. Have they given any reason as to why they are doing this? Is the standard procedure not to just commandeer schools over the weekend (as seems to be the practice in the rest of Latin America)?
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Aug 31, 2015 17:29
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They just want to make sure the proper people vote and that they vote properly, and if they don't that the proper result is still achieved - nothing nefarious at all, I'm sure.
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Aug 31, 2015 17:50
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:Purpose-built voting centers seems like a big waste, but sharing them with obviously partisan institutions is even worse. Have they given any reason as to why they are doing this? Is the standard procedure not to just commandeer schools over the weekend (as seems to be the practice in the rest of Latin America)? Common in the states as well. Mozi posted:They just want to make sure the proper people vote and that they vote properly, and if they don't that the proper result is still achieved - nothing nefarious at all, I'm sure. Exactly, just ask carter; the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world.
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Aug 31, 2015 17:58
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:Purpose-built voting centers seems like a big waste, but sharing them with obviously partisan institutions is even worse. Have they given any reason as to why they are doing this? Is the standard procedure not to just commandeer schools over the weekend (as seems to be the practice in the rest of Latin America)? That same article I linked quotes a lawyer for Voluntad Popular as saying that the relevant legislation (the Ley de Procesos Electorales) does not explicitly prohibit the practice. However, it's understood that things like this fall under the Consejo Nacional Electoral's (CNE) overall role in overseeing free and fair elections. I'd be interested to hear what the Venegoons have to say about their experiences voting (specially what your voting center looked like), but according to that article it was common practice before to just, as you say, commandeer schools, gymnasiums or other non-partisan venues during elections to turn into voting centers. The voting centers here in Canada (in Ontario at least) are often school/church gyms. Unfortunately, if it's the CNE's job to make sure things like this don't happen, I'm afraid they'll do absolutely nothing to stop it, and people will be voting in rooms with Chavez's posters all over the walls on December 6. Mozi posted:They just want to make sure the proper people vote and that they vote properly, and if they don't that the proper result is still achieved - nothing nefarious at all, I'm sure. You wouldn't want to make a mistake voting, would you? Can you imagine how embarrassing that would be?
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Aug 31, 2015 17:58
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nah guys you see in all Western Governments, the voting is just bought by special interest groups and super PACs, having the ruling party in government use outright voter intimidation is exactly the same everywhere else and therefor perfectly fine, also que viva Chavez
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Aug 31, 2015 18:17
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Colombia has lost their request for a special meeting at the UN and UNASUR has cancelled the special meeting that was going to happen on Thursday. What the gently caress is going on?
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Sep 1, 2015 01:08
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Here's an interesting in-depth article on the opposition http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/11464 quote:Selma in Caracas: Brown-Washing and the Abuse of History
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Sep 1, 2015 01:30
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PerpetualSelf posted:Colombia has lost their request for a special meeting at the UN and UNASUR has cancelled the special meeting that was going to happen on Thursday. What the gently caress is going on? How is this a surprise? This is Colombia's problem, not anybody else's. UNASUR was a joke since the beginning and the UN is the most useless institution in the world.
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Sep 1, 2015 02:08
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This is where Chavez's ideologically incoherent alliances with every anti-U.S. dictator on Earth pay off -- the U.N. is just a forum for third-world crackpots to vent conspiracy theories while the U.S. and Israel veto everything. Colombia isn't going to get in the door with either side.
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Sep 1, 2015 02:52
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Here's an interesting in-depth article on the opposition Guys I'm pretty sure BJ is dead of cocaine overdose and left a python script running somewhere that posts venezuelaanalysis.com articles to any D&D thread with 'Venezuela' in the title.
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Sep 1, 2015 03:04
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Yesterday, Jose Vielma Mora (the governor of Tachira state) talked about the border closure and shot back at reporters who asked him about the deportat-- err, the placing of Colombian citizens into Colombia: quote:That word you keep repeating, repeating and repeating — we’ve placed citizens in Colombia. That word, “deportation”, is contrary to our socialist and humanitarian values. I want to remind you that many people were placed in an air-conditioned area to avoid trauma. This is the same mentality that makes those Venezuelanalysis articles so difficult to read. "We're socialists, we're The Good Guys™, so we can do no wrong; everyone else is The Bad Guys™, so everything they do is wrong". Today, El Nacional is reporting that there are 299 children in Venezuela who have one or both parents in Colombia following the "placements". The figure comes from the Instituto Colombiano de Bienestar Familiar [Colombian Instituto of Family Well-being]. One of the organization's spokespersons said that they're doing all they can to reunite the families but that it's a difficult task because, "many [families] are afraid because they were threatened with having their children taken away". M. Discordia posted:This is where Chavez's ideologically incoherent alliances with every anti-U.S. dictator on Earth pay off -- the U.N. is just a forum for third-world crackpots to vent conspiracy theories while the U.S. and Israel veto everything. Colombia isn't going to get in the door with either side. This was the vote on U.N. Resolution 68/262 affirming the territorial integrity of Ukraine after Russia annexed Crimea:  We're a Bond-villain country.
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Sep 1, 2015 13:06
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Santos is giving a address to the nation and comparing the Venezuelan military marking Colombian housrs with Ds and tearing them down to Nazis destroying houses in jewish ghettos. It's been extremely intelectual. No grandstanding. No hyperbole. He's simplu outlined every single humans righ abuse and what Colombia has tried to do in the UN. He just stated that the Colombian Attorney General will bring charges of humans rights abuse and crimes against humanity to the international court in La Hague agaisnt key leaders of the Venezuelan military and government. Link to the statements Best part imo quote:Es evidente –además– que la estrategia del Gobierno venezolano es culpar a Colombia de todos sus males. Pero –como dije hace unos días–los problemas de Venezuela son hechos en Venezuela, no en Colombia. Son tan absurdas, tan fuera de la realidad, las acusaciones y seńalamientos, que se caen de su propio peso. ˇQuién puede culpar a una pobre anciana deportada de la tremenda escasez de productos básicos que sufre el pueblo venezolano! ˇQuién puede culpar a los nińos que están siendo expulsados de la altísima tasa de cambio o la inflación que se ha disparado allá! ˇY quién puede siquiera considerar que desde Bogotá, “con la anuencia y la vista gorda” de mi gobierno, se planee atentar contra la vida del presidente Maduro! No. ˇMil veces no! Colombia es una nación decente, civilizada, democrática, respetuosa de los derechos humanos y de las instancias internacionales, que cree en el diálogo y la diplomacia, ˇy lo seguirá siendo! Si otros caen en la paranoia, nosotros persistiremos en la serenidad en todas nuestras acciones. "It's also evident that the strategy of the Venezuelan Government is to blame Colombia for all of it's ills. But like I said a few days ago, Venezuela's problems are made in Venezuela, not in Colombia. They are so absurd, so out of touch with reality, the accusations and pointing of fingers, that they collapse under their own weight. Who could fault a poor senior citizen who was deported for the high scarcity of basic goods that the Venezuelan people suffer from. Who can blame the high exchange rate or inflation on children that have been kicked out of their homes? And who could possibly even consider that in Bogota with my governments consent and oversight there is a plan to try and take the life of President Maduro? No! A thousand times no! Colombia is a decent nation, civilized, a democracy that respects human rights and international law. We believe in dialogue and diplomacy and we always will! Even If others rely on their own prejudices and paranoias, we will always persists in the serene soberness of our own actions ' PerpetualSelf fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Sep 2, 2015 |
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Sep 2, 2015 01:14
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PerpetualSelf posted:Santos is giving a address to the nation and comparing the Venezuelan military marking Colombian housrs with Ds and tearing them down to Nazis destroying houses in jewish ghettos. Columbia is a nation on the path towards sustainable development through democratic institutions. It is my view, and what I hope is the view of Congress, that Columbia not be allowed to be made the Poland of South America by the communist and fascist tendancies of her neighbors. It really is sickening how greedy and powerhungry Maduro and the Chavismo movement are and have been. Stay safe, Columbian allies.
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Sep 2, 2015 04:02
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You guys asked about our experience voting in Venezuela: It is true that traditionally voting takes place in schools around here. You are assigned a school near you when you register to the CNE and vote there on election day. I've voted three times in Venezuela and one in Spain. My first vote I believe was in the referendum, the voting that took place when Chavez had completed half his first period, and it went ok. Back then things weren't so delicate. The next voting process was very different. First of all, chavist political propaganda in voting centers is nothing new, since at that point public schools were encouraged (required?) To hang pictures of Chavez along with the very standard picture of Simon Bolivar in every classroom. Weirdly enough, political propaganda for the opposition was banned, and it got so ridiculous that they wouldn't let you view if you had a flag, or clothes representing it. That second time my grandma was offered help to use tree voting machine by the functionaries wearing Red shirts v and chavist motives. And when I say offered I mean heavily, they insisted on going to the voting machine with her and use it in her stead. My own complicated experience was going to view and having to run away when guys in motorcycles surrounded my voting school and started singing pro chavist songs and shooting in the air. Had to come back later in the day and voted normally.
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Sep 2, 2015 08:47
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Hugoon Chavez posted:You guys asked about our experience voting in Venezuela: I suppose the question is, as you reflect back upon your experiences, at what point could Venezuela's slide into authoritarianism no longer be halted, and what is the best vaccination for other developing nations against irresponsible actors like Chavez?
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Sep 2, 2015 09:31
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My Imaginary GF posted:I suppose the question is, as you reflect back upon your experiences, at what point could Venezuela's slide into authoritarianism no longer be halted, and what is the best vaccination for other developing nations against irresponsible actors like Chavez? I'm not smart enough or I haven't studied the right things to give an answer I could feel completely secure with, but I'll give my personal opinions: I think Chavez was inevitable. Ever since our last dictator, the right-winged Marcos Pérez Jiménez, we had a bipartidist system that was clearly corrupted. We were still pretty high on our own oil fumes back then and the government in general gave 0 shits about the lower class, which was a big part of the population. When Chavez came around, first trying to do a military coup to a president that was famous for his corruption and greed, and then as the first strong candidate that wasn't part of the two usual parties, it was already a very interesting option for many Venezuelans. Add to that the fact that he knew how to talk to the lower class, and actually included them in his discourse and it was pretty clear why he won. A leftist bend to the government could bring many improvements to the general populace (and, in fact, it did). So, Chavez was just the result of years and years of poor rulership. Things started to get weird once he turned away from many crucial promises in his campaign promises. The first big warning sign was, to me, the new constitution. I think anyone should be wary of a president that changes the laws of a nation to his benefit, but at that point he was still proving himself and his followers strong as ever, so it passed. This made possible infinite reelections, a longer presidential period, and even reset his presidency since it forced new elections. We had three national votes in as many years, for Presidency, Constitution, and new Presidency. Another warning sing at this point was how he started to divide the country in Chavist and The Enemy. The old constitution, one that he had held in high regard and praised during his campaign, was now being called "La moribunda" (the dying one). People speaking up against his ideas were insulted on national TV and called enemies of the people, etc. Of everything he did, dividing the country was the biggest aggravator and the thing that will hurt the country the most. To me, even this early, that was the point of no return. Once he could change the constitution and make it "His" then everything was fair game. Even breaking the laws he set up himself, later on, was just a consequence of giving him free reign to change our fundamental laws. Now, I think as a country, the point where everyone lost hope and just surrendered was when he won the 2012 election against Henrique Capriles. I had no doubt that would be the case but Capriles was the last hope for many. To this day I doubt you'll find a non chavist Venezuelan that doesn't think the election was rigged, and scores of incidents and irregularities plagued the vote. Everyone was claiming for Capriles to "man up" and contest the results, but at the end he decided to just peacefully disagree with the result, to a bunch of empty words and weak manifestations that obviously led nowhere. And as for other nations, funny that you mentioned it. I'm living in Spain and this past year I've seen how Podemos has started to get traction and I've been able to compare it to Chavism. It's all the same play with different actors, with the radical difference that most Spaniards don't consider themselves to be third class citizens like Venezuela's poor, and for that reason didn't flock to Podemos with the same fervor. Thankfully Podemos has lost lots of ground and I won't have to move again. After seeing all that, I think Chavez and Podemos are just natural consequences of years of bad government and rampant corruption. The people are often ignored and it gets to a point where the citizens that have been marginalized outnumber those living comfortably, and at that point it just takes a strong leader to use their vote and change the country's course, to good or ill. The best way to avoid it? Governments placing their citizens first and making the status quo at least good enough for most.
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Sep 2, 2015 11:46
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My Imaginary GF posted:I suppose the question is, as you reflect back upon your experiences, at what point could Venezuela's slide into authoritarianism no longer be halted, and what is the best vaccination for other developing nations against irresponsible actors like Chavez? I'd like to chime in here. I was still too young during the first constitutional referendum and the 2002 coup, so the turning point for me, came a little bit later, specifically in 2007 (major trip down memory lane below). During the last days of 2006 Chavez announced he wouldn't renew the concession for RCTV, a popular national channel, due to their coverage during the 2002 coup. There was an outrage all over the country and major protests during the first half of 2007, but it was college students who really made it personal and staged almost daily demonstrations and gigantic marches to show their discontent. I was 17 at the time and it was my first year of college, most of the people who were in college with me at that time basically had lived under the shadow of Chavez their whole lives since he stormed the public realm in 1992 but that was their first chance to actually show their discontent and they took to it with gusto. That wave of protests culminated in some violent clashes with the police and several wounded from both sides, as well as arbitrary detentions; all of that was still child's play in comparison to 2014 though. Chavez kept his word and in May 2007, RCTV went off the air but the students were still pissed and decided to set it's sights on a bigger prize, that year's constitutional referendum, which would allow for indefinite re-election, esentially rendering Chavez president for life (well, we weren't wrong on that count). The opposition was in a low point at that time: they'd called voters to abstain from the 2005 Parliamentary Elections as a form of protest, which simply allowed the government's party to sweep them with an uncontested majority and cement their footing further, so Chavez though he'd be able to ride the wave uncontested. During that year the student movement took charge by rallying the voters and managed to beat back the proposal with 55% at the end of that year. It was the opposition's first victory in a while and spirits were high, a lot of those student leaders went right into politics and are now majors or running for the National Assembly. I recall that Chavez, ever the gentleman, went on the air after the results came in and said it was "una victoria de mierda" ("a lovely victory") and he would put the proposal to vote again. The year ended in a victory, but watching him say that was the first time I remember thinking that the guy would never back down. In 2009 the proposal was put to vote again thanks to a loophole in the Constitution, this time however the articles to be modified were narrowed down just to those which would allow indefinite presidential re-election. Chavez won with 54% of the vote and the rest is history. Another notable turning point for me was Judge Afiuni's imprisonment in 2009. She presided over the trial of Eligio Cedeńo, a banker who hustled the government out of a few million dollars and allowed him to go out on bail while his trial began, since he'd been in custody for 3 years at the time awaiting it's start. Cedeńo ran and Chavez went on the air outright calling for Afiuni's imprisonment. He esentially ruled and sentenced her on TV, she was promptly detained for years, during which she was tortured and raped, only to be granted house arrest in 2013. House arrest is the government's way of saying, "hopefully you learned your lesson, stay out of our way". Hugoon Chavez posted:Now, I think as a country, the point where everyone lost hope and just surrendered was when he won the 2012 election against Henrique Capriles. I had no doubt that would be the case but Capriles was the last hope for many. To this day I doubt you'll find a non chavist Venezuelan that doesn't think the election was rigged, and scores of incidents and irregularities plagued the vote. Everyone was claiming for Capriles to "man up" and contest the results, but at the end he decided to just peacefully disagree with the result, to a bunch of empty words and weak manifestations that obviously led nowhere. I've got to differ from you here, spirits were high for the 2012 elections while they were indeed full of irregularities and abuses, Chavez won by a margin of 11% at a time when the economy hadn't yet tanked (although the expenditures from that fiasco were probably the tipping point). With clean elections the margin probably would've been smaller, but Chavez would've still undoubtedly won, protesting at that time would've taken away any credibility the opposition had. Now if we're talking about the 2013 presidentials, that's a whole different ballgame where they clearly outright stole the election. The main difference I've noticed between people who believe the 2012 elections were rigged and those who don't is whether they believe in electronic fraud, which in my opinion is silly considering their behaviour when elections come around: keeping voting centers open until high in the night and scaring away opposition witnesses with violence points to simple ballot stuffing in a small number of centers, which also explains why they so vehemently denied access to the voting books, a simple look at the statistical outliers would've shown any number of irregularities. Labradoodle fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Sep 2, 2015 |
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Sep 2, 2015 15:47
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It's looking more and more likely that the state of exception (which, despite what Telesur and Venezuelanalysis keep saying, does in fact suspend constitutional rights) will be extended beyond Tachira state. Right now, it appears as if Zulia and Apure states (the other two states bordering Colombia) will be next, but today Diosdado Cabello said that the state of exception would be extended to "wherever necessary". Cabello said: quote:We are announcing that wherever it is necessary to take the actions that we have to take, the government will do it. Sections of Zulia and Apure, and wherever necessary. Again, the two Telesur article and one Venezuelanalysis article that I've read on this issue like to point out that under a state of exception, constitutional rights are not suspended. This is false. Constitutional rights are most certainly suspended under the state of exception. As I mentioned in an earlier post, Tareck El Aissami himself read the list of suspended rights under the state of exception in Zone 1 (the first six municipalities where the state of exception was declared), which are are found in Articles 47, 48, 50, 53, 68, and 112 of the Constitution. This is huge because the articles in question deal with the right against warrantless searches and wiretapping, and the freedoms of transit, peaceful assembly and protest. Leading up to what is shaping up to be one of the most important elections in the history of the PSUV, you can imagine what the implications of suspending these rights are.
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Sep 2, 2015 20:37
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What is the official line regarding the status of the Constitution regarding the Estado de Excepción? If there are no rights being suspended, then what is the point of declaring totally-not-martial-law? The entire objective of such a method is to expedite state action by removing people's rights for the duration of whatever is going on. How can anyone keep parroting the opposite when this is what is happening by the very definition of what they themselves are doing. Its not a question of obfuscating facts or drawing up scapegoats, such as in the case of whether or not these Colombians are all in paramilitary organisations and/or drug cartels, but something which is proven false literally by the name that they have given it.
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Sep 2, 2015 22:16
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I find it really hard to have any sympathy for the Colombian government in this situation, I mean they created this refugee crisis in the first place through the creation of the paramilitaries, then they export it to Venezuela and when Venezuela cracks down on these death squads, Colombia cries about Nazism. Good thing the UN and UNASUR are ignoring their ridiculous claims http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Over-5000-Displaced-Colombians-Receive-Asylum-in-Venezuela-20150902-0024.html quote:In recent days the world has watched as Venezuela launched a campaign to rid its border with Colombia of paramilitaries from the neighboring country, after three Venezuelan soldiers were injured by these death squads. Chuck Boone posted:Again, the two Telesur article and one Venezuelanalysis article that I've read on this issue like to point out that under a state of exception, constitutional rights are not suspended. This is false. Constitutional rights are most certainly suspended under the state of exception. http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/11483 quote:President Nicolas Maduro declared a state of exception – similar to a state of emergency but where no human rights are rescinded – in five municipalities of Tachira state Friday in order to re-take control over the border area and re-organize it. Borneo Jimmy fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Sep 2, 2015 |
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Sep 2, 2015 23:38
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:What is the official line regarding the status of the Constitution regarding the Estado de Excepción? If there are no rights being suspended, then what is the point of declaring totally-not-martial-law? The entire objective of such a method is to expedite state action by removing people's rights for the duration of whatever is going on. How can anyone keep parroting the opposite when this is what is happening by the very definition of what they themselves are doing. Its not a question of obfuscating facts or drawing up scapegoats, such as in the case of whether or not these Colombians are all in paramilitary organisations and/or drug cartels, but something which is proven false literally by the name that they have given it. The official government line is found in the Decreto 1.950 that announced the state of exception. The rights I listed are suspended. I have no idea why the pro-PSUV crowd doesn't want to admit this. Maybe it's the same reason why Vielma Mora said that people weren't deported, but rather "placed" back into Colombia. We're the good guys, and we don't deport people or suspend rights. We're the good guys; we place people back in their beloved homelands and we give people their rights back. Borneo Jimmy posted:I find it really hard to have any sympathy for the Colombian government in this situation The Colombian government is the last thing you should have sympathy for. The +1,000 people "placed" back into Colombia and the +7,000 who decided to pack up and leave their lives in Venezuela because of a whim from Maduro are the victims here. You don't even need to think about the Colombian government at all. How can the PSUV claim to represent the poor and do this? Does that not seem inconsistent? How does the mass deportation of these families do anything at all to solve anything? Borneo Jimmy posted:No actually the article doesn't say that. Jimmy -- please. I have difficulty believing that you're being serious, but this is a lie that needs to be dispelled for anyone else reading this. What do you think the overall message of that article is? Do you think that the phrase, "but where no human rights are rescinded" (specially when taken in the context of the very next sentence in the section you quoted) is to make it clear to the reader that while constitutional rights have been suspended, whether or not those rights are human rights is up for scholars to decide? Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Sep 3, 2015 |
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Sep 3, 2015 00:14
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JB is living proof of why aggressive leftists in general should be avoided -especially foreign ones-. I wonder what people like Oliver Stone and Sean Penn think of their beloved regime now. They probably support it out of a mix of cluelessness and loyalty to their theoretical ideals. I think the only non-hypocritical figure in history that comes to mind as a respectable, balanced figure of XX century Socialism is George Orwell. Hey look, I found a respectable leftist politician from Colombia hanging out with M, remember to support her and her party!  ... The only thing the Colombian government can do is provide humanitarian aid and help integrating to these people and stop wasting resources on international institutions where bureaucrats couldn't care less. Especially UNASUR, which was explicitly created to support Chavism in the continent (wasting resources from the Venezuelan Treasury, I imagine) and is right now headed by a traitorous Colombian ex-president. I'm glad to hear that Podemos in Spain is weakening by the way. I've talked before to some Spaniards who believed they were a solution to their country. Pheww.
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Sep 3, 2015 00:54
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Chuck Boone posted:Jimmy -- please. I have difficulty believing that you're being serious, but this is a lie that needs to be dispelled for anyone else reading this. Well it is a matter for the courts to decide and they've determined that the state of exception respects human rights and that it is legal http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Venezuelan-Supreme-Court-Backs-Maduros-State-of-Exception-20150829-0008.html And here's what Telesur has said about the state of exception http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Venezuela-What-is-a-State-of-Exception-20150821-0032.html quote:2. A state of exception allows the temporary suspension of constitutional rights, except those that pertain to human rights, the prohibition of torture, the right to due process, the right to information and other basic human rights.
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Sep 3, 2015 00:56
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First Colombians have been deported from Caracas. Jimmy you can gently caress right off. Those Colombians have been in Venezuela since the oil rush. How about Colombia deport and abuse the rights of the 400,000 Venezuelans living in Colombia and blame it on the psuv for creating a crisis in the first place with their poor policies. gently caress off. You are excusing the abuse of the civil rights and rape of many Colombians who have lived in Venezuela for decades just to distract from the elections. Never even loving mind the millions of squatters in Venezuela that Chavez supposedly fought for because they were poor. No but because they are Colombians maduro will kick out so called poor squatters (they arent squatters) because they are colombian. Thats not socialism in any way and form except one. National socialism.
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Sep 3, 2015 01:09
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PerpetualSelf posted:Thats not socialism in any way and form except one. National socialism. Actually I'm pretty sure Colombia, a country where leftists, journalists, human rights activists, union leaders, priests and more are regularly murdered by right wing death squads (who happen to be connected to many of the officials complaining about the border crackdown) is closer to Nazi Germany.
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Sep 3, 2015 01:19
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Actually I'm pretty sure Colombia, a country where leftists, journalists, human rights activists, union leaders, priests and more are regularly murdered by right wing death squads (who happen to be connected to many of the officials complaining about the border crackdown) is closer to Nazi Germany. gently caress the Venezuelan government as it becomes ever more authoritarian and incompetent, but yeah, somehow Chavistas (for all the crimes they have committed) have managed to avoid murdering tens of thousands of rightist opponents, as the powers that be in Colombia have done to leftists - not in the distant past of the worst of the Cold War, but through the 80s, 90s, and into the 2000s. No sympathy or fondness for the Venezuelan government, but somehow even less for the Colombian political order, which is predicated on murdering those who dissent.
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Sep 3, 2015 01:28
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Well it is a matter for the courts to decide and they've determined that the state of exception respects human rights and that it is legal What the Venezuelan courts say about this is wholly besides the point. Yes, the state of exception is 100% legal under Venezuelan law; that's not being discussed. The Jose Vielma Mora quote in that article is an Orwellian attack on words, and I'm arguing that Venezuelanalysis published those words either out of ignorance or out of a desire to mislead readers. Rights are being suspended, just as people are being deported, no matter how Vielma Mora and the PSUV try to spin it. Borneo Jimmy posted:And here's what Telesur has said about the state of exception Thank you. I hadn't seen that article before. I'm happy to see that Telesur's got it straight. Jack of Hearts posted:No sympathy or fondness for the Venezuelan government, but somehow even less for the Colombian political order, which is predicated on murdering those who dissent. Even if you hate the Colombian government with every fiber of your body, what I'm saying is that this really has absolutely nothing to do with the Colombian government, and absolutely everything to do with over one thousand people who are the poorest of the poor and have now become pawns in Maduro's game.
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Sep 3, 2015 01:47
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Actually I'm pretty sure Colombia, a country where leftists, journalists, human rights activists, union leaders, priests and more are regularly murdered by right wing death squads (who happen to be connected to many of the officials complaining about the border crackdown) is closer to Nazi Germany. I'm sure none of that happens in Venezuela. Once again. Stop changing the topic. Stop pointing at Colombia and saying it's ok to abuse the rights of Colombians because some Colombian people have done bad things. That's childish. Supposedly Venezuela is a enlightened Socialist nation that is supposed to have higher standards and not do these kind of things. Your continued defense of them demonstrates that is false. Your socialism is about as socialism as Mussolini's Italy. You are nothing but South America's bully trying to provoke neighbor countries with illegal mistreatments of their sovereign citizens to distract from the collapse of your own economy and leaders massive unpopularity. Anyways Americans can't understand the complexities of Colombian politics. It's not exactly that people who dissent are killed. There is far too much dissent in Colombia for that to be true. Half the nation would be dead if that were the case. If the level of dissent that occurs in the nation were to happen in the United States it would be called a revolution and entire elections would be based around it. PerpetualSelf fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Sep 3, 2015 |
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Sep 3, 2015 01:49
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Jack of Hearts posted:No sympathy or fondness for the Venezuelan government, but somehow even less for the Colombian political order, which is predicated on murdering those who dissent. Anyone trying to confuse the issue by equating Colombian economic refugees in Venezuela with "the Colombian political order" is, in fact, acting out of fondness for the Venezuelan government. I bet you cry all over your Z Magazine archive when you realize this poo poo isn't working anymore, not even on leftists.
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Sep 3, 2015 01:54
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M. Discordia posted:Anyone trying to confuse the issue by equating Colombian economic refugees in Venezuela with "the Colombian political order" is, in fact, acting out of fondness for the Venezuelan government. I bet you cry all over your Z Magazine archive when you realize this poo poo isn't working anymore, not even on leftists. They're not really economic refugees. They're basically Venezuelan citizens as much as Maduro hates that. Most of them left Colombia 20-30 years ago because Venezuela had really high paying oil jobs.
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Sep 3, 2015 02:00
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M. Discordia posted:Anyone trying to confuse the issue by equating Colombian economic refugees in Venezuela with "the Colombian political order" is, in fact, acting out of fondness for the Venezuelan government. I bet you cry all over your Z Magazine archive when you realize this poo poo isn't working anymore, not even on leftists. I do not, actually. Expulsion of Colombians by the Venezuelan government is appalling. Even if I were an idealist -- which I'm not -- I'd see no purpose in trying to advocate for such a useless regime. On the other hand, if you consider that the country next door has its political order built on the bones of murdered union organizers, UP members, etc., then you might not wonder why the leftists in Venezuela are inclined to rig things in their favor. The terrible logic of leftists is very much rooted in the murderous logic of rightists.
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Sep 3, 2015 02:17
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Colombia is so close to Nazi Germany and evil right wing that the Left has held the mayor office in the capital city (the second most important political position in the country, held currently by a leftis ex-guerilla member) for 3 consecutive periods, despite of their disastrous results, a generous agreement with the guerillas is going to be signed to end the peace process, and private companies are taxed at between 40%-70%. We bent over to Nicaragua over a territorial dispute that they won, we have bent over to Venezuela in the past years for the sake of business and good relationships, and are still bending over to them. The assassinations that have happened are more due to lack of law-enforcement capacity on the part of the government especially in remote areas, and the rise of the paramilitaries was a reaction to the leftist guerillas. there are no governmental forces actually persecuting activists to slaugther them, that's retarded. Both are repudiated by everyone. The abuses that happened were mostly during the Uribe presidency, which was a reaction to the growth of guerillas in the 90s and the failure of a peace process in 2001-2002. quote:UP members quote:Colombia exported the paramilitaries to Venezuela blah blah
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Sep 3, 2015 06:46
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Tony_Montana posted:That was maaany years ago, I don't think it's easy to connect that to the power held by the latest governments, who do not, I repeat, conduct or depend on "persecutions" or anything of the sort to remain in power, they are elected through normal democratic means (Uribe overwhelmingly so). Are Reagan and Bush I relevant in terms of impact to American politics today? When were the last leftist presidential candidates murdered? Tony_Montana posted:The UP were FARC's political arm and at the end of the day, if they live by the sword, they die by the sword. I mean, I too believe that tens of thousands of peaceful Sinn Fein members ought to have been killed, but this is entirely due to my pathological hatred of the Irish. All of this is off topic, except in the sense that maybe the pathology of Venezuelan leftists has part of its root in the pathology of Latin American rightists, including its neighbor to the left .
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Sep 3, 2015 09:21
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Tony_Montana posted:The abuses that happened were mostly during the Uribe presidency, which was a reaction to the growth of guerillas in the 90s and the failure of a peace process in 2001-2002. Somehow I missed this sentence. What are you, 20? Because that would explain this objectively wrong statement.
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Sep 3, 2015 09:51
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Tony_Montana posted:gently caress off with the hipocrisy Basically. It never gets old when armchair communists try to somehow defend the Chavist movement because it uses the same terms they love so much and likes to point at popular enemies of the leftist movement. I always think the same: go live in Caracas for two months and see if you come back still thinking Venezuela is an example. Even if they ideology wasn't pure smoke and mirrors and they truly were committed to the people's well being, then they would still be completely incompetent and have no business running a country. It's really loving easy to take the Chavist side because it presses all the right buttons in your ideology. What, actually investigate and listen to what people that actually are living/lived under that rule are saying? nah, dude, he mocked Bush, he's a hero. edit: the biggest hypocrisy I keep seeing is whenever people accuse the media. If they're talking poo poo about Venezuela's government then obviously they are right winged puppets trying to brainwash the masses. Oh, but when Chavez closes a TV channel because it decided to interrupt his national address to show as people were being murdered in the streets while protesting him, well that's just peachy. Hugoon Chavez fucked around with this message at 12:18 on Sep 3, 2015 |
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Sep 3, 2015 12:12
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Hugoon Chavez posted:edit: the biggest hypocrisy I keep seeing is whenever people accuse the media. If they're talking poo poo about Venezuela's government then obviously they are right winged puppets trying to brainwash the masses. Oh, but when Chavez closes a TV channel because it decided to interrupt his national address to show as people were being murdered in the streets while protesting him, well that's just peachy. Their explanation for this is that the murders were literally a CIA false flag operation, and that by showing news that a coup was going on the stations were active participants in the coup, and as for the part where the president punishes people for crimes by decree instead of them being charged and given a trial, well, they usually don't even bother addressing that portion of the issue. It's essentially 9/11 truther levels of conspiracy-upon-conspiracy and handwaving.
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Sep 3, 2015 17:04
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Tony_Montana posted:JB is living proof of why aggressive leftists in general should be avoided -especially foreign ones-. I wonder what people like Oliver Stone and Sean Penn think of their beloved regime now. They probably support it out of a mix of cluelessness and loyalty to their theoretical ideals. I think the only non-hypocritical figure in history that comes to mind as a respectable, balanced figure of XX century Socialism is George Orwell. There've been a good number of socialists who were respectable and balanced. Olof Palme is a good example, so is Bernie Sanders. Given the presence of socialists who were not only successful, but decent human beings as well, it's always struck me as strange that so many far leftists, especially academic leftists, gravitated to Chavez and even Maduro. It's almost as though the ability to successfully implement policies and make a real, positive difference in the world is less important for them than the fiery, hateful rhetoric that characterizes so many of the bad examples of socialists. Of course, many of the supporters of said "bad examples" don't live where they govern, so the actual outcomes of their policies don't matter, whereas extremism and blind opposition to the US do. It's a very childish, very selfish outlook.
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Sep 3, 2015 17:35
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| # ? Apr 24, 2024 17:11 |
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Yes, it's entirely about "gently caress YOU DAD" levels of anti-U.S. kneejerking. They will pick "oh snap" style rhetoric against Washington over actual policies every time. Chavez allied with Iran, which massacred leftists in the 80s -- the syndrome is shared by their idol.
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Sep 3, 2015 18:13
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