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When all is said and done, Chavez and Maduro fit neatly into the centuries-old Latin American tradition of caudillismo. Sooner or later in any given Latin American dictatorship, the strongman of the moment will almost inevitably turn to Western interference for an easy (and sometimes justified) target to blame for the failure of the nation-building project, often while promoting a vague, almost mystical view of said nation or Latin America in general being pure or morally superior compared to the materialistic gringos (think la raza cósmica). This has mostly been accompanied by revolutionary socialist rhetoric since the Cold War, but the ideological trappings are almost incidental to the phenomenon at its core. It's nothing new and we've seen it over and over again in the past two centuries. That's why the Chavista regime has no trouble allying with deeply conservative regimes. Psychologically, the top priority is to avenge the latent but constant humiliation that they perceive themselves to have suffered at the hands of the yanquis. I've read a very interesting book about this cultural phenomenon called Del buen salvaje al buen revolucionario, by Venezuelan writer Carlos Rangel. It was written in 1976, but it might as well have been published today for how spot-on it is. The author is clearly a liberal, so I don't doubt that he would be despised by the majority of D&D, but he is certainly not a gung-ho supporter of savage capitalism. He puts more emphasis on strong, reliable institutions and the need for mentality change as an alternative to caudillismo and tercermundismo. I wonder if he is remembered in Venezuela at all. He'd be sad if he were still alive to see such a perfect example of his writings in his own country.
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Sep 3, 2015 18:55
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Leopoldo Lopez's people uploaded a video on YouTube narrated by Lopez himself that provides a really clear summary of some of the irregularities that have marked his trial. Without having to go into my archives, I can say that what's covered in the video is a really good summary of some of the issues with the trial that have been reported in the media over the past year and a half. In particular, the video mentions the conditions in which he is being held, the constant interference with his right to mount a defense, the refusal of the court to allow the press to attend the trial, the wholesale rejection of evidence for the defense, and the state's reliance on a "magic witness" who gave their expert opinion in court that Lopez's speeches contained subliminal messages that called for violence. The video also makes reference to Maduro's bizarre suggestion back in January to swap Lopez for a Puerto Rican national in prison in the United States. I'll be able to dig out news articles covering the issues mentioned in the video if anyone is interested. Anyway, here's the video along with my translation below: quote:Leopoldo Lopez: “Dictator’s Manual: How to Fake a Trial”. If an opposition figure dares to call you corrupt, inefficient and anti-democratic, and calls for protests against you, throw him in jail. This manual will provide a step-by-step explanation on how to fake a trial and break your political prisoner. Lopez faces a maximum sentence of 14 years in prison stemming from charges related to the violence that happened on February 12, 2014. His trial is wrapping up this week and a verdict is expected soon.
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Sep 3, 2015 23:17
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Adventure Pigeon posted:There've been a good number of socialists who were respectable and balanced. Olof Palme is a good example, so is Bernie Sanders. Given the presence of socialists who were not only successful, but decent human beings as well, it's always struck me as strange that so many far leftists, especially academic leftists, gravitated to Chavez and even Maduro. It's almost as though the ability to successfully implement policies and make a real, positive difference in the world is less important for them than the fiery, hateful rhetoric that characterizes so many of the bad examples of socialists. Of course, many of the supporters of said "bad examples" don't live where they govern, so the actual outcomes of their policies don't matter, whereas extremism and blind opposition to the US do. It's a very childish, very selfish outlook. It's not "almost", it's "exactly". The dumb college communists slurp that poo poo right up as though it was purestrain golden maple syrup decanted directly from Karl Marx's cock. It's all about form over function.
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Sep 3, 2015 23:22
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-Troika- posted:It's all about form over function. Sums up politics in general for me. People care about image, leftist, rightist, it's all about your team winning.
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Sep 3, 2015 23:30
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Tony_Montana posted:Colombia is so close to Nazi Germany and evil right wing that the Left has held the mayor office in the capital city (the second most important political position in the country, held currently by a leftis ex-guerilla member) for 3 consecutive periods, despite of their disastrous results, a generous agreement with the guerillas is going to be signed to end the peace process, and private companies are taxed at between 40%-70%. We bent over to Nicaragua over a territorial dispute that they won, we have bent over to Venezuela in the past years for the sake of business and good relationships, and are still bending over to them. I'd say most of this is right. But i'll clarify. Colombia is not a perfect nation. But we are the ONLY nation in South America without a long history of dictatorship and that has had a single, democratic form of government in power for over 100 years. It is one of the nations most stricken by strife in the past 100 years. But since 1902 and the end of the 1000 day war we have avoided all out civil war for over 100 years. That has been throughout the United States Intervention in our foreign affairs; first by stealing Panama from us, then threatening to invade us for not putting down national banana strikes. That has been throughout the warmongering by fellow nations. Be it the Peruvians and the war of 1932 or the various border thefts by the Venezuelan republics at the start of last century to Nicaraguas modern demands of the return of the San Andres Islands. Beyond that the US mains intervention has been in the drug war. But outside of that we created our own demons with fighting between liberals and conservatives. The US had nothing to do with it. We killed each other. And that's why we know so well why neither extreme should be allowed. No Colombian can deny the atrocities of the Uribe Administration. But the ones that should be held responsible most are the Colombian people; who allowed those things to happen in a democracy. Just the same as the Venezuelan people who should be held responsible for what they have allowed the PSUV do in their country. But to think that now, after the fall of Uribe, the exposure of his dirty deeds, which was aired throughout the media constantly and never denied or downplayed by any of them be them right wing or left wing,to think we are somehow continuing such actions is absolutely absurd. And to think that the Colombian Government: even under Uribe, specifically targeted the poor, or union members, is a gross oversimplification of the facts. Uribe enacted policies which did eventually lead to some of these things, but often they were unintended consequences. Not a direct focus of the entire government apparatus, but the failures of certain corrupt branches, due to the high levels of corruption within Colombia as is. To connect Santos Government to Uribe is also absurd, Uribe sees Santos as a traitor for being a diplomat, being kind to Venezuela and Chavez and reopening the border (some thanks we got for that..). Santos even appeared at Chavez Funeral, regretting the death of Chavez with strong statements, and has gone very far out of his way to reach out and try to reach peace with the deluded Stalinist FARC Guerrilla, who time and time again have betrayed every opportunity that has been given to them. When Uribe's self appointed Attorney General removed an Ex-M19, Socialist, and extremely unpopular Mayor of Bogota over publicizing the cities trash system Santos went after him and worked to make sure that Petro was reinstated. He is belittled by the Colombian people for his relationship with both Chavez and his attempts for peace with the FARC. They want the FARC hunted down and killed to the last man. They abhor Chavez and what he has done in Venezuela. He is a man that if anything has been very to the left of Uribe on these issues and worked hard on making amends for Uribe's failures. And for everything he has done to help Venezuela, Chavez, and the very Chavistas that are bitching here, he is maligned. This is absurd to me. At every level. Santos has done everything he could to be kind to the left wing. Their failures in Colombia and Venezuela are their own doing. Colombia is not a perfect country. But it is a far cry from Venezuela! It is still a democracy with so many freedoms that Venezuela lacks. And our people live in much, much better conditions, and make much, much more in their minimum wage. PerpetualSelf fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 00:16
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Perpetual, how do you see Colombia in relation to its inmediate past? as in, has the country in general improved, security and freedom wise? I ask because as a Venezuelan I grew up being told that Colombia was in a worse state than Venezuela. Then things started to decay and nowadays Colombia is considered a pretty decent country to live in by most Venezuelans. I was just wondering if Colombia really has improved, or it's just our own downlfall that makes it seem so.
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Sep 4, 2015 07:53
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Lopez's sentence is supposed to come in today. He's expected to be found guilty despite his farce of a "trial", whose major shortcomings were listed by Chuck in his previous post. UPDATE: Lopez is being tried alongside Marco Coello, Christian Holdack, Ángel González and Damián Martín, students that were detained during last year's protests and there's a bit of a clusterfuck right now because apparently Coello managed to flee to Miami yesterday in a freaking commercial flight via the country's main airport and these geniuses just realized it today because he was a no show at the trial  .
Labradoodle fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 19:40
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That's pretty awesome, good for him. Is the trial going to be televised or something? It's not at all usual but I'd bet they would love to.
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Sep 4, 2015 22:33
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Hugoon Chavez posted:Is the trial going to be televised or something? It's not at all usual but I'd bet they would love to. There's no press allowed in the room. Not just cameras or recording devices; no one representing the media is allowed to attend. The closest the press is allowed to get to the courthouse is a block away, since all the streets in the vicinity are closed.
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Sep 4, 2015 22:36
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Just stopping in to note the obvious fact that a country where anyone who appears able to defeat the ruling party in an election is suddenly put in prison on nonsense charges is not in fact a democracy, and anyone claiming Venezuela is a democracy is a propagandist for the regime. Challenging low-level ignorance is an important part of getting the facts out there, especially in English-language forums such as this one where people are not going to know anything about Venezuela unless they seek it out. American media coverage is extremely scanty and generally the product of lazy reporters regurgitating something they read elsewhere without any skepticism.
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Sep 4, 2015 22:36
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I can say that European media (or at least, Spanish media which is the country with more Venezuelans in Europe for sure) also hardly mentions Venezuelan news.
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Sep 4, 2015 22:50
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Of course, as soon as I brought that up, a NYTimes piece was published and went to the top of Google News: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/09/04/world/americas/ap-lt-venezuela-opposition-leader-.html Seems to at least get at some of the issues with the trial, though of course much more could be said. Also glosses over the real situation with shortages of essential goods -- a "recession" is what happened in the U.S. in 2009 when a lot of people lost their jobs, people who have jobs or access to government benefits not being able to eat because there is no food is something else entirely.
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Sep 4, 2015 23:07
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I haven't kept up with what happened to end the day off, but I'm guessing given the current time that there was no verdict in the Lopez/students trial, and that it will continue into Monday of next week. Anyway, as I mentioned in an earlier post the Lopez trial has been marred by some very serious irregularities. Here's a quick overview of the case and some of these irregularities:
There are a few other points that I haven't touched upon, but any single item on the list I've written is enough to seriously cast into doubt the fairness of a trial. There's enough about the Lopez trial to write a book. Back in February, a reporter from El Nacional managed to sneak into the trial and recorded some video of Lopez speaking in court. The video also contains interviews with legal experts who discuss the fact that the trial was conducted under an extraordinary amount of secrecy. The video can be seen here, along with my translation below: quote:Leopoldo Lopez: ... this is a political trial. And that is evident through all of its characterizations and through all of the manipulation of the processes that have taken place. It's clear that the decision to sentence [me] has already been made. Regardless of your stance on the political situation in Venezuela, if you believe in the importance of the rule of law and due process you must take issue with this trial. We give serial killers in North America fairer trials than the one Lopez and the students have gotten.
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Sep 5, 2015 05:24
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Hi, longtime lurker of the last thread. What are the opinions of Venezuelan's on the oil policies of Maduro? From what I understand, during the last oil boom, Venezuela became really inefficient at drilling wells. Supposedly, an average rig went from 7/year to 3 wells/year. Do you have any insight to the veracity of such claims and/or the reasoning behind the decline (this is precrash numbers). Also, what are your opinions (as well as the general public) to the relationship between Venezuela and China insofar as oil financing goes. It looks like China is getting hugely favorable terms.
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Sep 7, 2015 16:27
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JohnGalt posted:From what I understand, during the last oil boom, Venezuela became really inefficient at drilling wells. Supposedly, an average rig went from 7/year to 3 wells/year. Do you have any insight to the veracity of such claims and/or the reasoning behind the decline (this is precrash numbers). My understanding is that a lot of it was due to the nationalizations and replacing large numbers of professionals with people who had the correct political beliefs.
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Sep 7, 2015 17:30
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Might it also have been starting to run out of suitable locations?
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Sep 7, 2015 17:51
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Nintendo Kid posted:Might it also have been starting to run out of suitable locations? It's possible. It would probably make more sense to use less rigs in that case. However, Venezuela has the 'largest' oil reserves in the world. Even if you only look at conventional sources, they are pretty significant.
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Sep 7, 2015 19:29
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JohnGalt posted:It's possible. It would probably make more sense to use less rigs in that case. However, Venezuela has the 'largest' oil reserves in the world. Even if you only look at conventional sources, they are pretty significant. Yeah but even if you have huge reserves, if most of the good locations over it are taken up, it could be harder to get new successful wells.
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Sep 7, 2015 19:31
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JohnGalt posted:What are the opinions of Venezuelan's on the oil policies of Maduro? I'm not familiar with this topic so I'm sorry that I won't be able to answer this question properly, but I'll still say a few things. As Adventure Pigeon pointed out, the PDVSA of today is a decidedly chavista organization. The 2002-2003 general strike resulted in about half of the company's staff leaving PDVSA. The politics of the event ensured that it was in Chavez's best interest to get his supporters into the organization. There have been high profile cases (namely the Amuay refinery explosion of 2012) that people have pointed to as evidence that PDVSA has been slipping when it comes to investing in infrastructure and safety, but I don't know enough about that to talk about it. I can say that PDVSA's daily output goal in 2013 was 3.46 million barrels per day, but it looks like it averaged 2.79 million barrels per day between January and November of that year. If those numbers are true, then production was down 1.1% during that same time in 2012. More recently, an article in El Nacional claims that PDVSA is performing below 2008 levels, pumping out about 2.7 million barrels per day so far in 2015. In 2008, PDVSA managed 3.26 million barrels per day. The company's debt has also increased tremendously, from $2.9 billion in 2006 to $48 billion in 2015. I also remember that back in October 2014 PDVSA made headlines because it was importing light crude from Algeria to use in the refining process in Venezuela. It had never done that before, although this BBC article says that PDVSA did buy light crude in the 80s to use in refineries outside of Venezuela. PDVSA argued that the move simply made good business sense, but it still raised some eyebrows. I think the news gave some people the impression that PDVSA wasn't this giant of oil production they thought it was. JohnGalt posted:Also, what are your opinions (as well as the general public) to the relationship between Venezuela and China insofar as oil financing goes. It looks like China is getting hugely favorable terms. Venezuela's relationship with China has been getting some bad PR recently due to how reliant Maduro appears to have become in Chinese money. Maduro scurrying off to China every few months to beg for loans is a reflection of the dire situation the country's finances are in. The drop in oil prices have pushed international reserves to their lowest level in at least twelve years, and the Banco Central de Venezuela has made two withdrawals from its account at the IMF so far this year: one for $380 million, and another for $1.5 billion. I think a common opinion on the subject is that Maduro is mortgaging the future of Venezuela for his short-mid term political goals.
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Sep 7, 2015 19:44
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@ Hugoon Chavez, if you are against Podemos because you see it as being to much like PSUV but do believe that Spain has some structural problems, what do you think the best way to reform Spain is then? Also for anyone whose an expert on the Venezuelan budget, what is the likelihood of Venezuela effectivly going bankrupt in the next three years?
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Sep 7, 2015 20:17
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Adventure Pigeon posted:My understanding is that a lot of it was due to the nationalizations and replacing large numbers of professionals with people who had the correct political beliefs. Chavez fired half of the oil workers in 2003 to punish them for going on strike, which was an acceptable socialist move because something something CIA George Bush Noam Chomsky something. I'm guessing the replacements were not as qualified.
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Sep 7, 2015 20:29
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Chuck Boone posted:Anyway, here's the video along with my translation below: Anyone who might be able to make a powerful left-leaning party lose face in South America will promptly face ridiculous trials/threats. I don't think any of these authoritarian moves have any relevance to actual socialist ideolgy. wiregrind fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 21:47
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M. Discordia posted:Chavez fired half of the oil workers in 2003 to punish them for going on strike, which was an acceptable socialist move because something something CIA George Bush Noam Chomsky something. I'm guessing the replacements were not as qualified. There's socialism, and then there's the "socialism" as practiced by Maduro and Chavez, where they take advantage of legitimate poverty and class issues to use the poor as a springboard to office, then consolidate power while making token gestures and abusing rhetoric. There doesn't seem to be any endgame beyond power and extracting as much wealth as possible for themselves and their cronies.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:19
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Venezuela lost a important case in the International Court of Human Rights regarding the RCTV License to broadcast. The international court ruled that RCTV must receive its license back. Venezuela is now looking to close the border in the Guajira reason. Things keep circling the drain. And I am wondering how much longer this can last.
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Sep 8, 2015 01:06
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As PerpetualSelf just said, the Inter-American Court of Human Rights has just issued a ruling in the case of the RCTV shut-down in 2007. The court has ruled in favour of RCTV, and has ordered that it be allowed to broadcast again on channel 2. The court found that the Venezuelan government violated the right to free expression by refusing to renew the station's broadcasting license after years of threats in an attempt to force the station to change its editorial line. The ruling can be found here, in Spanish. Part of the ruling reads: quote:197. The court concludes, then, as it has in other cases, that in this case a deviation of power took place, since a faculty of the State was used with the goal of editorially aligning the media with the government (...) I place the chances of the government abiding by this ruling at 0%. The government will probably accuse the Inter-American Court of Human Rights of being an interventionist, imperialist body, and say that it's part of the international/media/psychological war against the country, and say that no one can tell Venezuela what to do because Venezuela se respeta. As Labradoodle mentioned earlier, Chavez began specifically threatening RCTV with not renewing its license in 2006. The station's license expired on May 27, 2007, and since it wasn't renewed, RCTV was forced off the air. I was in Venezuela at the time, and I remember watching the channel when it shut down. There was a "New Year's eve countdown"-esque feel to it. At midnight, I remember my uncle stepping outside and yelling expletives at the top of his lungs. The cacerolazo in Caracas that night was intense. wiregrind posted:I'm surprised that he could accurately pinpoint these things while being currently in isolation; because most of his points seem to be actual standard practices all over. What he describes is similar to what's happening right now in a trial against an Uruguayan ex-guerrilla (who uncovered a bunch of crap surrounding members of the ruling socialist party.) Difference is that here the media isn't entirely blocked; instead of that, the party relies on providing a smokescreen, confusion, ad hominem, and dismissal of the accusations against their politicians. He's a sharp dude. I think he knew back on the day he turned himself in that he was going to be found guilty and sentenced to prison. Adventure Pigeon posted:There's socialism, and then there's the "socialism" as practiced by Maduro and Chavez, where they take advantage of legitimate poverty and class issues to use the poor as a springboard to office, then consolidate power while making token gestures and abusing rhetoric. There doesn't seem to be any endgame beyond power and extracting as much wealth as possible for themselves and their cronies. I think this is exactly on point. I think this is how history will remember what's happening in Venezuela today.
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Sep 8, 2015 01:15
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PerpetualSelf posted:Venezuela lost a important case in the International Court of Human Rights regarding the RCTV License to broadcast. The international court ruled that RCTV must receive its license back. Does that court actually have any ability to enforce that though?
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Sep 8, 2015 01:16
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Nintendo Kid posted:Does that court actually have any ability to enforce that though? The Inter-American Court of Human Rights is part of the Organization of American States, an organization to which Venezuela belongs. Maduro has already snubbed the OAS plenty of times, most recently during the border crisis with Colombia. I don't think Venezuela cares one bit about what the court has to say. However, the ruling does have the effect of adding its voice to an ever-growing list of international human rights organizations calling the Venezuelan government out for the abuses it continues to perpetrate.
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Sep 8, 2015 01:20
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I think this is a early indicator what the jury may be if Colombia sues Venezuela for committing human rights abuses in their detention and expulsion of Colombians and could lead to eventual embargos against the country by several groups. I don't see how Venezuela can keep on keeping on, the Chinese and Russians will likely eventually turn against them when they are unable to make loan payments due to their ever decreasing productions of oil and the drop in oil prices. The noose is tightening around their neck with every month that goes by.
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Sep 8, 2015 02:00
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Question to Venezuelan goons, has the whole situation in Venezuela made you distasteful toward all forms of socialism and left wing politics in general? Or do you view Chavismo as part of a specific left wing umbrella? Hugoon Chavez posted:And as for other nations, funny that you mentioned it. I'm living in Spain and this past year I've seen how Podemos has started to get traction and I've been able to compare it to Chavism. It's all the same play with different actors, with the radical difference that most Spaniards don't consider themselves to be third class citizens like Venezuela's poor, and for that reason didn't flock to Podemos with the same fervor. I was under the impression that Podemos was very different from the PSUV from talking to Spaniards and they've disliked Chavez for a long time. Why do you say they are similar? punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Sep 8, 2015 |
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Sep 8, 2015 05:27
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Maduro officially expanded the state of exception to Zulia state last night, and closed the border crossing at Paraguachon. The communities under the state of exception are Guajira, Mara and Altmirante Padilla. I believe they are all located in the northern tip of Zulia. Interestingly, Maduro also said that the native Wayuu population are exempt from the border closure, since they've inhabited the land for thousands of years. There are now thirteen municipalities across two states that are under a state of exception. It seems as if Diosdado Cabello foreshadowed this last week, and my bet is that if Maduro wants to take this further, Apure state (the third state bordering Colombia) will see closures and states of exception next. As to how effective these measures are viewed, a poll released yesterday by the Instituto Venezolano de Analisis de Datos found that 47.8% of Venezuelans blame the national government for the scarcity crisis, 14.3% blame Maduro personally, while only 7.1% blame smugglers and re-sellers (known as bachaqueros in Venezuela). On the central government's ineptitude in dealing with the scarcity, La Patilla is reporting today that the CENCOEX (the body responsible for exchanging foreign currency) has not handed over any foreign currency to the country's private sector in two months. The article claims that the reason for this is that PDVSA, which earns something like 96% of the country's foreign currency, is saving up in order to pay back $4.6 billion it owes creditors by the end of the year. This means no money for importing raw materials needed for domestic production or products to keep shelves stocked. punk rebel ecks posted:Question to Venezuelan goons, has the whole situation in Venezuela made you distasteful toward all forms of socialism and left wing politics in general? No. I think that as others have pointed out in the thread, what we're seeing in Venezuela is socialism in name only, and that what we have instead is a relatively small group of corrupt officials who will seemingly stop at nothing to enrich themselves.
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Sep 8, 2015 15:21
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JohnGalt posted:Hi, longtime lurker of the last thread. I will try to make an effortpost covering these topics later this week, but I can mention a couple of things off the top of my head. After Chavez purged PDVSA the company ended up shifting its focus from improving production to acting as the government's cash cow and while the brain drain has impacted most professional industries, none has been so hard hit as oil. Being a PDVSA employee used to be a major sign of status in Venezuela since it's the country's most prominent industry, whereas now petroleum engineers and other qualified professionals would much rather prefer outright emigration or working for multinationals. As an example, one of my closest friends is an electrical engineer who decided to roll the dice and throw his lot in with an multinational oil company in Venezuela because they offered him part of his wages in dollars and the possibility of a fully covered relocation once he's got enough experience. That's a very enticing package but they still have problems finding qualified engineers who want to join their program because they'd rather emigrate. As for the chinese, I've read articles about the terms of their deals and if I remember correctly at one point, while oil prices were still sky high, they were getting barrels at approximately $20 in exchange for cash up front, which should've been allocated for the improvement of our oil output and the purchase of chinese products. However since the government threw away that money in order to lay the ground for the 2012 and 2013 elections, the chinese have been much more reluctant to extend more financing without strong caveats, hence the drastic reduction of imports this year (which partly explains the augmented scarcity) and the government's more overt attempts to fabricate international crises in order to rally their base. Essentially, the PSUV, which rages so much about international meddling, has bent over for the chinese in the same fashion as they paint the opposition has done for the United States but at far less reasonable terms because they've been so desperate for money to secure each successive election.
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Sep 8, 2015 22:13
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punk rebel ecks posted:Question to Venezuelan goons, has the whole situation in Venezuela made you distasteful toward all forms of socialism and left wing politics in general? Or do you view Chavismo as part of a specific left wing umbrella? As for the first: not exactly. As I already mentioned, it has made me a lot more cynical and weary about politics in general, but then again that might be just me growing older. I've lived media manipulation or misinformation first hand in favor of a so called socialist regime so I usually come off as confrontational when speaking about left wing politics, simply because there's a lot of hypocrisy whenever leftists speak about the "right wing media" brain washing people and a lot of other usual arguments. That said, if I were to define myself I would totally fall into the leftist spectrum, but very wary about it. Mostly I'm just in favor of the people's well begin above all, if a right wing government actually takes care of its citizens and people live comfortably and free, I'm all in favor. As for Podemos, the discourse is very similar to Chavez' early talks, and Pablo Iglesias has mentioned the Chavist regime as an example to follow, wore shirts with Chavist motives, etc. He has also said a bunch of things that have set up alarms in my head, such as his stance on the media. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not too involved in Spanish politics, but anyone that uses Chavez as an example is an enemy of mine. I can't but hate what my country has become and anyone siding with the people that made it so won't ever be someone I'd follow. Crowsbeak posted:@ Hugoon Chavez, if you are against Podemos because you see it as being to much like PSUV but do believe that Spain has some structural problems, what do you think the best way to reform Spain is then? Can't really say. I understand the appeal of Podemos: it's the exact same situation as Chavez' in 99. The people are tired of the overtly corrupt bipartidism and the political campaigns here are basically "it's the other party's fault that X!" "You did Y during your last period and that's why it's ALL hosed up!" all year round. Someone coming in and saying "hey, gently caress those dudes, let's do things differently" has a lot of potential. Honestly I'd be all up for Podemos had they not triggered all of those red flags during their discourse. Pablo Iglesias presents itself as another populist leader, wearing chavist shirts and talking about controlling the Media to "avoid right wing bias" and he lost me. Add to that the fact that most of Podemos leaders have been proven to be on Venezuela's payroll for different things in the last few years and, well. Had Podemos been clear about their ideology, been clear of the Chavist movement, and not fall into the typical "point to your opponent's faults and blame them for everything instead of focusing on your own plans" I would've voted for them. Hugoon Chavez fucked around with this message at 09:38 on Sep 9, 2015 |
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Sep 9, 2015 09:19
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Hugoon Chavez posted:As for the first: not exactly. As I already mentioned, it has made me a lot more cynical and weary about politics in general, but then again that might be just me growing older. That makes sense. You have to keep in mind though that Western Europe and North America never had a wave of far leftists take over their countries. They have had fascists such as Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco; but never a far left leader. The other part about it is that to a degree, it is true. The media in many of these countries are controlled by the interests of big businesses. However, many of the developed Western countries never lived in the world where the media was widely controlled by the government in the fashion that it is in Russia and Venezuela. That is why the left in countries like Spain, France, and the United States think they can play the "right wing media" card as if left wing media can't exist. Hugoon Chavez posted:As for Podemos, the discourse is very similar to Chavez' early talks, and Pablo Iglesias has mentioned the Chavist regime as an example to follow, wore shirts with Chavist motives, etc. He has also said a bunch of things that have set up alarms in my head, such as his stance on the media. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not too involved in Spanish politics, but anyone that uses Chavez as an example is an enemy of mine. I can't but hate what my country has become and anyone siding with the people that made it so won't ever be someone I'd follow. To be fair a lot of this sounds pretty vague. Pretty much every new party blames everything on the entrenched parties and bias in the media. Syriza uses this heavily for example. But again I am not from Spain so that guarantees that I am missing context. Hugoon Chavez posted:Honestly I'd be all up for Podemos had they not triggered all of those red flags during their discourse. Pablo Iglesias presents itself as another populist leader, wearing chavist shirts and talking about controlling the Media to "avoid right wing bias" and he lost me. Add to that the fact that most of Podemos leaders have been proven to be on Venezuela's payroll for different things in the last few years and, well.
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Sep 9, 2015 18:16
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I think that people who have concern about civil liberties are seeing that leftist governments in Venezuela, Ecuador, Brazil, and Bolivia are much more inclined towards totalitarianism and less "democratic socialist" than the rosy-eyed propaganda of the mid-00s would have us believe. Similarly, the rule of law as opposed to the arbitrary dictates of the political class is important. How to pursue a particular economic policy without abandoning these tenets is for those who believe in that policy to figure out.
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Sep 10, 2015 04:23
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I think that, in the long run, the "21st century socialism" campaigned by Chavez will be a giant red mark in history that will haunt left wing politics for years to come. Man, we keep getting lots of those huh.
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Sep 10, 2015 07:00
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It also doesn't help that nowadays the "far left" governments align themselves with some of the most lovely human beings out there: Putin, Al-Asad, Kim Jong Un, al-Gadaffi to name a few. I still remember, uh, either Venezuela or Bolivia (I think it was Bolivia) believed the (fake) rumor of Mandela's death like years before his actual death. Their way to commemorate him? He got put in some kind of "wall of lamentations", up there with such individuals as Castro, al-Gaddafi and Chavez. 
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Sep 10, 2015 08:15
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Azran posted:It also doesn't help that nowadays the "far left" governments align themselves with some of the most lovely human beings out there: Putin, Al-Asad, Kim Jong Un, al-Gadaffi to name a few. I still remember, uh, either Venezuela or Bolivia (I think it was Bolivia) believed the (fake) rumor of Mandela's death like years before his actual death. Their way to commemorate him? He got put in some kind of "wall of lamentations", up there with such individuals as Castro, al-Gaddafi and Chavez. Yeah, it's incredibly dumb. Venezuela also had nothing but love for Gadaffi. It's like anyone that says "gently caress America" is a hero because that small alignment of interests, and the rest doesn't matter. It's a wonder Maduro hasn't traveled to North Korea yet, and I'm eagerly hoping for him to gift Jong-Un a photoshoped picture of Chavez and Kim Jong-il riding pterodactyles together and getting himself executed.
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Sep 10, 2015 08:44
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M. Discordia posted:I think that people who have concern about civil liberties are seeing that leftist governments in Venezuela, Ecuador, Brazil, and Bolivia are much more inclined towards totalitarianism and less "democratic socialist" than the rosy-eyed propaganda of the mid-00s would have us believe. Similarly, the rule of law as opposed to the arbitrary dictates of the political class is important. How to pursue a particular economic policy without abandoning these tenets is for those who believe in that policy to figure out. I don't see why Brazil, Bolivia, and Ecuador should be compared to Venezuela. While they have their faults, they are hardly at the level Chavez and co. are. They actually have developing economies and don't crack a whip of authoritarianism whenever given the chance. Hugoon Chavez posted:I think that, in the long run, the "21st century socialism" campaigned by Chavez will be a giant red mark in history that will haunt left wing politics for years to come. Man, we keep getting lots of those huh. Outside of select Latin American countries and hardcore political nerds, nobody even knows who Hugo Chavez is. 20 years from now nobody will even be familiar with Chavez outside of hardcore political nerds and Venezuelans. It's the same reason hardly anybody knows about Pinochet or Suharto. And Chavez hasn't been anywhere near as prominent as those two. punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Sep 10, 2015 |
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Sep 10, 2015 08:50
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The only lesson to be learned in Chavez is that Latin American strongman autocracy and political corruption are bad. Shocker
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Sep 10, 2015 08:59
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I think the "gently caress America" factor is mostly a thing with populist politics, regardless of left or right, at least that's the case here. You go extreme enough the lines between left and right are muddied.
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Sep 10, 2015 09:03
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