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FYI, Venezuela had the worst real GDP growth rate of any non-war torn nation in the world at -3%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_real_GDP_growth_rate Kurtofan posted:I think the "gently caress America" factor is mostly a thing with populist politics, regardless of left or right, at least that's the case here. You go extreme enough the lines between left and right are muddied. Sort of like how the far right wing in America throb their hearts toward Putin.
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Sep 10, 2015 09:25
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punk rebel ecks posted:Sort of like how the far right wing in America throb their hearts toward Putin. It's a very easy and useful tactic. The big bad monster outside our borders is responsible for everything. Boo, big bad monster, boo! Pay no mind to the big bad monster inside our borders, though. It's really easy to create a fictional enemy for the common folk, and the bigger that enemy, the more they eat it up since everyone loves feeling like the underdog in a Disney film. USA is Cobra Kai and Chavez is Mr. Miyagi! Hugoon Chavez fucked around with this message at 12:50 on Sep 10, 2015 |
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Sep 10, 2015 12:46
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Hugoon Chavez posted:It's a very easy and useful tactic. The big bad monster outside our borders is responsible for everything. Boo, big bad monster, boo! I've said many times before that a lot of parties and movements don't know what to do once they've "won". If you crafted your entire identity on being "the little guy" then what happens when you become the victor. It's easy to scream from the top of your lungs that things we be better if we had policy X, but actually deciding how to enact such policy and write the specifics of it is another thing all together. Socialist parties can scream about how things would be better if we had the workers control their workplaces and the people controlling their economy, but what such policies would even look like are never planned out. Never mind how they would properly be able to keep checks and balances in place when adding a new branch of government for the purpose of citizens controlling the economy so that it doesn't become a puppet of the federal government, or how to properly prop up cooperatives effectively with having staff well trained and engaged. It's easy to cry "It's because of Capitalism!", but finding out how an alternative will work is a whole different ball game. This is what populists movements, especially on the Socialist side, struggle with. If Chavez spent more time finding out how to make PDVSA an efficient company with the workers having control the same way say Semco did, and figuring out a way to have the population plan for infrastructure the way that Porto Alegre does, than possibly these Venezuelan threads would be in a different tone. But instead he took the easy way out and said "gently caress it just nationalize everything!" In terms of enemies inside our boarders, yeah that's what happens a lot. Well in first world countries at least. Everything is the fault of the welfare spending, gang banging, terrorist, refugee, Muslim druglords. If you like an enemy in the outside, then you must create an enemy from within. The United States is by far the most powerful country in the world, but arguably the most paranoid in the first world.
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Sep 10, 2015 16:09
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A PSUV gang showed up and murdered a Lopez supporter outside the courthouse: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/09/10/world/americas/ap-lt-venezuela-opposition-leader.html This is a total breakdown of civilization.
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Sep 10, 2015 23:14
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Leopoldo Lopez's and the students' trial resumed today, and while it's possible that the judge will deliver a verdict before the end of the day, it's unlikely. The big news today is that National Assembly PSUV candidate Jacqueline Faria called for pro-government supporters to head to the Palacio de Justicia (where the trial is being held). There have been peaceful demonstrations there all throughout the trial by opposition supporters. Anyway, a large crowd of pro-government supporters showed up in the afternoon, and beat the opposition supporters away. A member of the Voluntad Popular opposition party, Horacio Blanco, had a heart attack during the confrontation and died. La Patilla's Roman Camacho was on the scene and recorder this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H0AEETdgZQ Camacho points out at several times during the video that the National Guard troops stationed in the area appeared to allow the violence to take place for the most part. Note, for example, that at the beginning of the video a line of National Guard soldiers is separating the pro-government and opposition crowds. At around 2:40, the soldiers have disappeared, allowing the two crowds to merge, which results in the violence seen throughout the video. I've highlighted the main events throughout the video below:
I've also translated Guevara's words at the beginning of the video below. He's the national coordinator of the Voluntad Popular party: quote:Reporter: Freddy, is this demonstration called here by the government a provocation over what's going on here today? This isn't the first time that state security forces have allowed pro-government groups to act violently towards opposition supporters. The Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch reports linked in the OP contain evidence of this tactic being used during last year's protests. EDIT: Come pictures from earlier today:       EDIT: Fixed incorrect link. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 12:40 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 10, 2015 23:18
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Boy, I can't wait for the next Venezuela Analysis article blaming this on the US!
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Sep 11, 2015 00:24
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It's clear at this point that another nation; any nation, should intervene. Probably by providing opposition civilians with guns and training and funding a guerrila war against the current leaders. I think if that were to occur the PSUV house of cards would fall quite quickly.
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Sep 11, 2015 01:20
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I'm always struck by how absurd the rhetoric coming from Maduro and other officials is. Just recently (either this week or last), Maduro was talking about how Santos had forced Colombians out of the country, how he had abused their human rights, taken their possessions, broken up their families, etc. Maduro said this at the same time that his government was doing exactly those very things to Colombian people in Venezuela. In that video, what's most shocking to me is what the man is yelling through the loudspeaker: " "Out with the fascists! Out with the traitors! Out with those who sympathize with imperialism! This is Chavista territory, it is peaceful territory! We will not allow you to try to destabilize [inaudible] with your violent actions!" The pro-government crowd was literally beating people with sticks, and we are peaceful, and this is a peaceful territory, and we will not tolerate your violent actions here. The judge called a one hour recess in the Lopez trial about an hour and a half ago. She is deliberating now, and a verdict is expected soon. There is a live blog here that is covering the case. Lilian Tintori (Leopoldo Lopez's wife) will speak to the media as soon as she can after the verdict is read. Apparently, Lopez told the judge during his closing statements, "If you find me guilty, you will be more afraid to read the sentence than I am to hear it because you know that I am innocent". PerpetualSelf posted:It's clear at this point that another nation; any nation, should intervene. Probably by providing opposition civilians with guns and training and funding a guerrila war against the current leaders. I think if that were to occur the PSUV house of cards would fall quite quickly. Thankfully, as dire as the situation might appear, there are still democratic options to change. I believe that the PSUV knows that they are likely to lose the parliamentary elections in December, and they should be afraid; a National Assembly out of the hands of the PSUV would (on paper, at least) severely curtail Maduro's power. As Pindar said, "War is sweet to those who have not experienced it". An escalation of violence into a full-fledged armed conflict would be the most disastrous possible outcome. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 01:28
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PerpetualSelf posted:It's clear at this point that another nation; any nation, should intervene. Probably by providing opposition civilians with guns and training and funding a guerrila war against the current leaders. I think if that were to occur the PSUV house of cards would fall quite quickly. Nice to see people now advocating for death squads in this thread. If this is what what the Venezuelan right wants then I would say the Venezuelan government is justified in jailing people like Lopez and paramilitary infiltrators who want to plunge the country into civil war. As for some positive news http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Venezuela-to-Take-In-20000-Syrian-Refugees-20150908-0002.html quote:Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro announced Monday his country will receive 20,000 Syrian refugees fleeing Western interventionism, war and violence.
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Sep 11, 2015 01:45
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Nice rudimentary fasces. Borneo Jimmy posted:
Lol. We have less than a hundred refugees and they want to leave because of the economy, I don't think they'll be too happy in Venezuela.
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Sep 11, 2015 01:55
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The Syrian refugee comments reminded me of a scholarship program Venezuela offered to Palestinians to cover seven years of room and board to study medicine in Venezuela. 119 Palestinian medical students arrived in Venezuela last year as part of the program, and by July of this year, a third had left. They complained that the first year of the supposed medical program only offered Spanish and political indoctrination courses, and that they were afraid that their credentials would not be recognized abroad. Let's bring these 20,000 refugees over. There's absolutely no way the government could somehow mess that up. The judge has now been deliberating for about an hour and a half. I just saw on Twitter that more National Guard soldiers have been arriving to the Palacio de Justicia.
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Sep 11, 2015 02:10
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Chuck Boone posted:In that video, what's most shocking to me is what the man is yelling through the loudspeaker: " "Out with the fascists! Out with the traitors! Out with those who sympathize with imperialism! This is Chavista territory, it is peaceful territory! We will not allow you to try to destabilize [inaudible] with your violent actions!" The pro-government crowd was literally beating people with sticks, and we are peaceful, and this is a peaceful territory, and we will not tolerate your violent actions here. Stop resisting! Stop resisting! Venezuela is a hundred Fergusons a year, with leftists actually supporting the police. Unbelievable.
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Sep 11, 2015 02:33
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It's also really interesting that Leopoldo and the students are probably about to be sentenced to prison for allegedly calling for a demonstration that led to deaths hours after PSUV superstar Jacqueline Faria called for a demonstration that led to a death. The judge called the court to order about 10 minutes ago and is probably reading the verdict as I type this.
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Sep 11, 2015 02:37
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Chuck Boone posted:It's also really interesting that Leopoldo and the students are probably about to be sentenced to prison for allegedly calling for a demonstration that led to deaths hours after PSUV superstar Jacqueline Faria called for a demonstration that led to a death. It's the same logic as the dipshit Salon readers in this thread -- when we murder you it's just good policy, if you fight back it's a death squad. Kill Maduro and the entire cabinet and mount their heads on a pole outside Miraflores.
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Sep 11, 2015 02:40
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Nice to see people now advocating for death squads in this thread. If this is what what the Venezuelan right wants then I would say the Venezuelan government is justified in jailing people like Lopez and paramilitary infiltrators who want to plunge the country into civil war. You mean freedom fighters. The country deserves a civil war like the usa deserved one in 61. The tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants
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Sep 11, 2015 02:41
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It's true that open warfare is not something to be instituted lightly. At the same time, we are 17 years into a government that has worked tirelessly to eliminate all possibilities for peaceful change, from rigging elections to imprisoning dissidents to destroying civil society organizations. I think that the opposition should do two things: 1) Commit to targeted assassinations of legitimate targets (high-ranking PSUV figures) and forswear any and all violence against civilians or ordinary voters. 2) Allow for one last chance for change, the December elections. PSUV is currently polling 18%. There is no way they can win a legitimate election. They should be given one final chance to relinquish power to the democratic majority in a peaceful way (or rather, their rank and file supporters should be given one last chance to pressure Maduro and Cabello to do so, since the leaders will fight until the last man rather than give up power on their own). If the December elections end with a mysterious tripling of PSUV support from the exit polls to the official results, then a militant resistance -- incorporating everyone from the democratic socialists to the conservatives and with a firm commitment to restoring constitutional democracy as soon as possible -- must be formed.
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Sep 11, 2015 02:48
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Jimmy is also a lovely revolutionary because he should realize tgat revolutions must always be on going. Maduro and the PSUV should of been cleansed ages ago.
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Sep 11, 2015 02:49
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M. Discordia posted:1) Commit to targeted assassinations of legitimate targets (high-ranking PSUV figures) and forswear any and all violence against civilians or ordinary voters.
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Sep 11, 2015 03:01
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punk rebel ecks posted:
I don't think so. "Sure, that sounds like a good idea ....... IF YOU WANT TO MAKE US LIVE IN CHAVISTA VENEZULA" is going to be a right wing talking point whenver any vaguely progressive policy is brought up for at least the next decade I think. The fact that so many western leftists supported the current regime for so long (case in point the idiot in this very thread) will only make it more attractive to pundits and National Review types.
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Sep 11, 2015 03:11
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Lopez has been sentenced to 13 years, 9 months, 7 days and 12 hours in the Ramo Verde military prison. Unsure what the verdicts are for the students at this moment. EDIT: Apparently this is unconfirmed at this time, but the Venezuelan media is reporting it. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 03:12
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Chuck Boone posted:Lopez has been sentenced to 13 years, 9 months, 7 days and 12 hours in the Ramo Verde military prison. These past 10 minutes have been insane. A journalist on Twitter just popped out that number and minutes later it was being widely circulated by local media and picked up soon after by international channels. There are news being written about a Tweet while there's still no official verdict. It woudln't surprise me if it were true but Jesus, this is ridiculous.
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Sep 11, 2015 03:17
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I saw it pop up on Twitter from @milmanrique who I believe is inside the courtroom (maybe she's not?); I didn't post it here because it was unconfirmed. Then, everyone (El Nacional, NTN24, La Patilla) picked it up, but now I see that they're saying that it's unconfirmed. Ahhh. The tension. EDIT: I'm seeing Voluntad Popular retweeting the same figures, so it looks like it's confirmed. It also appears that the students were found guilty but were sentenced to medida cautelar sustitutiva, which I believe is... probation? With lots of restrictions? Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 03:20
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Voluntad Popular activists have confirmed the sentence. Yeah, I think it's a fancy way of saying house arrest. Ten years for Holdack and 4 years, 6 months for Demian and Angel. Labradoodle fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 03:23
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Borneo Jimmy posted:Shame to see this thread devolve into posters advocating for fascist terrorism. Venezuela has shown some remarkable restraint in the face of threats like these and I can only commend them for standing strong. You're a miserable piece of poo poo for supporting Maduro and his nonsense, and it's my personal hope that you eventually suffer the same things you support as they are inflicted onto others.
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Sep 11, 2015 04:02
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I hope maduro joins Chavez soon. hopefully in a more speedy and painful matter. preferably being dragged behind a car with some of his friends. Hopefully Lopez conviction will finally spark something.
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Sep 11, 2015 04:27
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PT6A posted:You're a miserable piece of poo poo for supporting Maduro and his nonsense, and it's my personal hope that you eventually suffer the same things you support as they are inflicted onto others. I'm not the one advocating violence, terror and hatred in this thread, there's no need for such bile.
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Sep 11, 2015 04:32
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Borneo Jimmy posted:I'm not the one advocating violence, terror and hatred in this thread, there's no need for such bile. ?? You've advocated and supported a lot of terror and violence, just in favor of the state.
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Sep 11, 2015 04:52
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Best Friends posted:?? Borneo Jimmy is a contrarian anti-American dumbass and an rear end in a top hat to boot, but in his defense (ugh), the closest he's gotten to explicitly "advocat[ing] and support[ing] terror and violence" in the past few threads was when he said Borneo Jimmy posted:lol people in this thread are actually advocating forcing disaster capitalism and economic shock therapy on Venezuela. If anything justifies the armed revolutionary collectives it's this. Although I guess you could also argue that his support for the Venezuelan government in the current expulsions of Colombians is pretty much doing the same. Dude's just a contrarian troll who feels obligated to defend everything the PSUV does. Ignore him if he bothers you, because you're never going to actually change his mind.
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Sep 11, 2015 05:01
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Borneo Jimmy posted:I'm not the one advocating violence, terror and hatred in this thread, there's no need for such bile. Arresting opposing politicians is terror. What the PSUV has spread is hatred. If you don't shut the gently caress up I'm gonna start quoting Stalin on how important killing people is for the revolution and how easy it is for enemies to hide and take over a revolution and that the best solution is to kill all them fuckers. You are a pathetic marxist you little chicken poo poo. So afraid of blood and all you can go about is loving death squads. You are about as revolutionary as a loving potato. Stalin would have you put down like a proper little bourgeoisie scum that you are. Mao would have you hung from the ropes. Pol Pot would have had you buried in sand then he would have personally taken a blowtorch to it. You are no friend of the revolution. Your just some stupid little white guy that thinks he understands the world. And one thing all marxists love is killing loving crackers. So shut the gently caress up you pasty Bai-guei, gringo, Oquizi Ohcha, maggot. PerpetualSelf fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 05:09
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themrguy posted:I don't think so. 99% of the World: *GuardiansoftheGalaxyWho?.gif* Not to mention that Latin America has elected a wave of left wing candidates recently and again they haven't gone off the deep end like Venezuela. You can't just hold one negative example while ignoring the positive. PerpetualSelf posted:You are about as revolutionary as a loving potato.
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Sep 11, 2015 05:29
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ComradeCosmobot posted:Borneo Jimmy is a contrarian anti-American dumbass and an rear end in a top hat to boot, but in his defense (ugh), the closest he's gotten to explicitly "advocat[ing] and support[ing] terror and violence" in the past few threads was when he said He's been here for years. A weird relic of when Chavez supporters filled these threads then left when things had clearly gotten indefensible. It's best not to get worked up over anything he posts. There're much better discussions to be had, especially since you don't really get the perspective here in any American news source that I've ever been able to find. Edit: Seriously, the "Borneo Jimmy gently caress off" posts are something that seem to spring up once or twice a year and they go nowhere except to poo poo up the thread. Just accept him as a weird, easily dismissed part of the fauna or ignore him if he upsets you, but derailing discussion isn't the way to go. Adventure Pigeon fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 05:30
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Hey, even I can accept that Chavez did some things that weren't horrible. A lot of my friends in Cuba benefitted greatly from the aid he provided to Cuba, so even if he was an authoritarian bastard, he was not 100% evil. And I will confess that I even enjoyed the US being called on some of their poo poo now and again. That said, there's absolutely no universe in which the behaviour of Maduro's government presently is even remotely acceptable, and I cannot imagine the sort of mental gymnastics you would have to do to even come close to justifying it at this point. Fidel Castro is one hundred times the man that Maduro could ever hope to be in his wildest fever dream, and even he was a terrible person in many, many ways.
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Sep 11, 2015 06:07
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Chuck Boone posted:
 I think you placed the link around the wrong part, poor guy isn't a guebón just because he died of a heart attack! Or maybe he is, I mean, I wouldn't go to a protest with a weak heart. Chuck Boone posted:
Very well said. I feel sad whenever I hear or read Venezuelans advocating assassinations and civil war in order to get rid of the Chavist Regime. Violence always brings violence and Venezuela is already such a dangerous country that a war would be completely devastating. Not only that but overturning Maduro trough violence only makes all of their crazy conspiracy theories all the more credible. Now, I do think that this will all end up with violence, but I'm hoping it's a final burst of violence, instead of political assassinations and civil war. It's really, really easy to support bloodshed from your soapbox in an internet comedy forum. I wonder if you'd do the same when your mother and friends are living right in the middle of it. PT6A posted:
Yeah, I'm the first to admit there were a bunch of good things in the early years, mostly actual social improvement for the lower class. Of course, behind that was a lot of political propaganda and adults learned to read by repeating things like "Chavez is love" over and over, but hey, they learned how to read! I mean, Chavez was a giant douche and, again, I fantasize of hell being real and my former president getting the deluxe treatment, but as with any successful authoritarian, there were some improvements amongst all the poo poo. Hell the last right wing dictator built half the roads (for his army!) that are used up to this day too. Maduro is just a giant dumbass that's taking as much advantage as he can from what his sugar daddy left for him before he has to bail and live like a king the rest of his years, and leave the country as an empty bag of poo poo. I could understand how people supported Chavez (although I always thought they were morons, I could understand), but supporting Maduro is literally people rabidly sticking to their guns even after benign proved wrong. It's sad that Leopoldo Lopez was convicted, but let's be honest here nobody expected any different. edit: also Chuck Boone posted:Apparently, Lopez told the judge during his closing statements, "If you find me guilty, you will be more afraid to read the sentence than I am to hear it because you know that I am innocent". I have nothing but love for the man if only because it was thans to him being mayor that I could have a "safe zone" during my teenage years in which to party and hang out. While he was Mayor, Chacao (his district) was by far the safest place in Caracas. Hell I took my outside of town current wife to our first date to a tour of Chacao. I don't know how old the other Venegoons are but I remember spending a lot of time in Plaza Altamira and La Castellana. Sure I got robbed a few times there too, but far, far less than anywhere else! Hugoon Chavez fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 07:29
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punk rebel ecks posted:99% of the World: *GuardiansoftheGalaxyWho?.gif* "Liberals are cheering today's expansion of SNAP funding. But our guest economist today warns us that other nations experiments with government control of grocery stores haven't always ended well." *cut to archival footage of Caracas supermarket with line out the door* The current regime is far too convenient a boogeyman for Heritage Foundation types for it to be forgotten as quickly as you say. E: \/Hey, I'm not saying this is what I believe, I'm just saying I'd be surprised if it isn't presented this way by the economic right in the US and Europe.\/ Fill Baptismal fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 08:09
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themrguy posted:Fox and friends will do literally, exactly that. Direct cash aid to the poor is far superior to government controlling grocery distribution, though, for a lot of reasons including exactly what we saw in Venezuela -- it's too complex to centrally plan and it becomes a political cudgel. Any government that wants so much power as to determine which shops get shipments of peppers this week is the same kind that is going to decide which opinions put you in prison. People have been saying since 1998 that you can look to Norway or Canada or even the $74 billion the U.S. spends on SNAP benefits as a far superior way to help the worst-off. It's just not necessary to implement Soviet-style totalitarianism to "help the poor" and the Chavista rallying cry has always been "nuh uh it is." And, now we have it -- would you rather live in Venezuela or a democratic socialist country in Europe?
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Sep 11, 2015 08:22
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PerpetualSelf posted:Arresting opposing politicians is terror. What the PSUV has spread is hatred. Hahaha wowza I'm not sure saying pol pot, Stalin and Mao would straight up have him 'taken care' of for his views is the slam dunk argument you're looking for here. This doesn't mean he's not an idiot but come on dude.
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Sep 11, 2015 10:37
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PT6A posted:Hey, even I can accept that Chavez did some things that weren't horrible. A lot of my friends in Cuba benefitted greatly from the aid he provided to Cuba, so even if he was an authoritarian bastard, he was not 100% evil. And I will confess that I even enjoyed the US being called on some of their poo poo now and again. That said, there's absolutely no universe in which the behaviour of Maduro's government presently is even remotely acceptable, and I cannot imagine the sort of mental gymnastics you would have to do to even come close to justifying it at this point. I thought it was generally accepted that Chavez and his friends were in general a mixed bag, but mostly positive in the beginning, but as time went on they realized they could get away with a lot of poo poo and then pretty much hosed up the entire country. PT6A posted:Fidel Castro is one hundred times the man that Maduro could ever hope to be in his wildest fever dream, and even he was a terrible person in many, many ways. Fidel Castro was a revolutionary who strived for Cuban independence that ended up selling off his entire country to Russia.
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Sep 11, 2015 10:51
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punk rebel ecks posted:I thought it was generally accepted that Chavez and his friends were in general a mixed bag, but mostly positive in the beginning, but as time went on they realized they could get away with a lot of poo poo and then pretty much hosed up the entire country. It's impossible to tell, but judging by actions I think that's a possibility. Then again Chavez also tried a military Coup before that and wanted to seize power by force, so my personal views on it is that he was after power and idolization since the beginning.
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Sep 11, 2015 10:54
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NLJP posted:I'm not sure saying pol pot, Stalin and Mao would straight up have him 'taken care' of for his views is the slam dunk argument you're looking for here. This doesn't mean he's not an idiot but come on dude. Every American campus slacktivist thinks he would be a commissar or official anime appraiser after the revolution. They don't realize that they would be shot for being bourgeois decadent intellectuals after refusing to report to the coal mines. Anything that throws some reality at the people cheering on Venezuela's suffering from afar in between their 12-hour Xbox Live sessions is good. This is the new Latin American colonalism -- instead of being dehumanized into a continent of banana exporters by the American military, they are now dehumanized into a continent of leftist rhetoric exporters by the American Tumblr class. It's still the same "you must all suffer in perpetuity for my enjoyment" attitude.
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Sep 11, 2015 11:45
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I don't think the "tumblr class" has any influence whatsoever on what's going on in Latin America. Nobody cares about what a bunch of fringe American leftists say or do.
Kurtofan fucked around with this message at 11:53 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 11:51
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