Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Borneo Jimmy posted:

Actually I'm pretty sure Colombia, a country where leftists, journalists, human rights activists, union leaders, priests and more are regularly murdered by right wing death squads (who happen to be connected to many of the officials complaining about the border crackdown) is closer to Nazi Germany.

gently caress the Venezuelan government as it becomes ever more authoritarian and incompetent, but yeah, somehow Chavistas (for all the crimes they have committed) have managed to avoid murdering tens of thousands of rightist opponents, as the powers that be in Colombia have done to leftists - not in the distant past of the worst of the Cold War, but through the 80s, 90s, and into the 2000s.

No sympathy or fondness for the Venezuelan government, but somehow even less for the Colombian political order, which is predicated on murdering those who dissent.

# ¿ Sep 3, 2015 01:28

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# ¿ May 6, 2024 03:06

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

M. Discordia posted:

Anyone trying to confuse the issue by equating Colombian economic refugees in Venezuela with "the Colombian political order" is, in fact, acting out of fondness for the Venezuelan government. I bet you cry all over your Z Magazine archive when you realize this poo poo isn't working anymore, not even on leftists.

I do not, actually. Expulsion of Colombians by the Venezuelan government is appalling. Even if I were an idealist -- which I'm not -- I'd see no purpose in trying to advocate for such a useless regime.

On the other hand, if you consider that the country next door has its political order built on the bones of murdered union organizers, UP members, etc., then you might not wonder why the leftists in Venezuela are inclined to rig things in their favor. The terrible logic of leftists is very much rooted in the murderous logic of rightists.

# ¿ Sep 3, 2015 02:17

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Tony_Montana posted:

That was maaany years ago, I don't think it's easy to connect that to the power held by the latest governments, who do not, I repeat, conduct or depend on "persecutions" or anything of the sort to remain in power, they are elected through normal democratic means (Uribe overwhelmingly so).

Are Reagan and Bush I relevant in terms of impact to American politics today? When were the last leftist presidential candidates murdered?

Tony_Montana posted:

The UP were FARC's political arm and at the end of the day, if they live by the sword, they die by the sword.

I mean, I too believe that tens of thousands of peaceful Sinn Fein members ought to have been killed, but this is entirely due to my pathological hatred of the Irish.

All of this is off topic, except in the sense that maybe the pathology of Venezuelan leftists has part of its root in the pathology of Latin American rightists, including its neighbor to the left .

# ¿ Sep 3, 2015 09:21

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Tony_Montana posted:

The abuses that happened were mostly during the Uribe presidency, which was a reaction to the growth of guerillas in the 90s and the failure of a peace process in 2001-2002.

Somehow I missed this sentence. What are you, 20? Because that would explain this objectively wrong statement.

# ¿ Sep 3, 2015 09:51

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

What does CIA sponsorship even mean in the context of mass demonstrations throughout the country? You can hand out all the money and assistance you like, you can't make the people spontaneously organize, or turn out day after day when the cops are beating them, or firing tear gas at them, or shooting them.

# ¿ Jun 30, 2017 01:24

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Bob le Moche posted:

Yes I literally believe that every single person who opposes the government is directly taking orders from the CIA and that the Venezuelan national guard never uses violence against protesters. This is a completely accurate and believable characterization of my position that totally makes you look like a serious person who is generally correct about things.

You might consider giving your own plausible account of events, then.

# ¿ Jun 30, 2017 05:49

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Bob le Moche posted:

Which events? The tear gassing of that building? I don't have any problem with Chuck's account.

If you're talking about Venezuela in general:

Note the absence of any words about how I feel about the PSUV or the methods it uses. Also note the use of "led by" instead of "composed of".

The more you folks flip out and perform outrage about this, the more foolish and discredited you will look when what I wrote comes to pass, and people wonder why they ever took you seriously.

If hundreds of thousands/millions of my fellow proles are allowing themselves to be led by the upper and middle class against their own interest, then it's a shame this attempt at proletarian rule failed. A shame, a terrible shame. It might be a generation before we get to try again.

# ¿ Jun 30, 2017 20:15

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Why does this have anything to do with cryptocurrency? I don�t get it.

Other than that, releasing an oil-backed currency seems like...a really good idea? Price volatility of oil is a big issue, but when your country has a ton of an in-demand, heavily-traded commodity, and your central bank has annihilated all trust in your fiat currency, using the commodity to back your currency seems like it could do a lot to stabilize the situation.

# ¿ Jan 8, 2018 19:21

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Not enough military support for a coup, not enough working class support for a general strike, and no hope that elections will change things.

Yep, everybody with the means should probably run.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2018 23:22

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Furia posted:

Coercion. These are the people that have the guns, that walk up to your door to remind you to vote for "the people's candidate" and that if you refuse to play ball for even a second can deny you access to food and starve you and your family

Is the ballot not secret in Venezuela? This reminds me of right-wing rhetoric about unions and �union thugs.�

# ¿ Feb 26, 2018 19:49

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Saladman posted:

"He loved his wife when he got married, so why is she being beaten now? Why is he suddenly beating his wife?"

More seriously: the PSUV had democratic support as long as it was able to buy votes, which it did largely through stealing money from Venezuela's future. Now it is no longer able to buy votes, so now it no longer wants democracy. The kleptocracy must continue at all costs, for obvious reasons for anyone involved in it.

Do you regard the PSUV as uniquely malevolent in Venezuela's history?

# ¿ Feb 26, 2018 22:19

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Feinne posted:

I can't imagine they would be given our track record in that regard.

What?! How dare you. Remember when we went into...hm. Japan? Did that work?

Jesus Christ was a lousy track record we have. As an American I'm honestly embarrassed. You would have better results by random chance.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2018 19:16

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Arkane posted:

I was re-reading the old Venezuela thread ("dead Chavez edition") about Chavez's election just prior to his death, and one of the first posters was a Venezuelan who had fled the country and still had relatives behind. "Hugoon Chavez" explained in great detail why this was bad news. He was beaten up on by myriad posters in the thread, including yourself, and I noticed a recurring theme where those people who called him out never posted in this thread -- I searched again and again for posters who were enthusiastically supporting Chavez and NONE of them posted in this thread (with the exception of Borneo Jim). As someone said above, the defenders went silent.

So I decided to PM one that had PMs turned on (you were that person) to try and find out what their thought process was, and the PM I sent you was as follows:

"I was re-reading an old Venezuelan thread about the re-election of Hugo Chavez, and one of the immediate responses came from a Venezuelan who said this was very bad news. You took issue with his characterization, and were quite vociferous in your defense of the direction of the country under Chavez. I noticed you don't have any posts in the past few years on Venezuela. Have you reassessed your views on the country?"

Pretty simple query trying to extract how new information impacts "true believers." So, what are your thoughts on the current state of the country? You haven't responded besides correctly assessing that the country is lovely.

Hasn't it been well established that you're...uh, how does one say this...loving terrible?

And that you're Jon Huntsman IRL?

Paul MaudDib posted:

Hi guys,

I haven't posted in D&D much lately. In fact, I think I've made a grand total of about 5 posts in the last 6 years. Mostly I posted in The Dorkroom for a while, then for the last 3-4 years it's mostly been SHSC and occasionally YOSPOS.

But Arkane remembered me though, and he PM'd me to gloat about how far down the shitter Venezuela has gone. I think we all need to give him a round of applause for how lovely Venezuela has gotten and how good that makes him feel. I hope this isn't too soon, but I think we may need to reconsider whether Fishmech is really America's Smartest Boy anymore, I think we have a new contender.

You were right buddy, the modern state of affairs is a truly great validation of your philosophies. As the president says, globalism rules and protectionism drools, and one might even say Venezuela is

I assume he probably PM'd other people to gloat about how lovely life is in Venezuela too?

This is one of the clearest cases of "nice meltdown" I've ever seen.

# ¿ May 4, 2018 09:08

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Saladman posted:

Now I want to elect him as MY emperor.

A Braganza over a Norton? Over my dead (Californian) body.

# ¿ May 27, 2018 03:59

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

GreyjoyBastard posted:

to the best of my knowledge Norton never had a kiddo

possibly because he went round the bend relatively young after failing to corner the California rice market

There are probably some Nortons still in South Africa. King Ralph sort of situation.

# ¿ May 27, 2018 05:43

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Chuck Boone posted:

Another bit of disturbing news that has surfaced over the last few days is that El Nacional apparently lost a defamation lawsuit against PSUV vice president Diosdado Cabello last week. I say "apparently" because the newspaper wasn't notified of the result: instead, it found out because another PSUV official boasted about it during a televised interview last Tuesday. The judge apparently ordered the newspaper to pay Cabello Bs. 1,000,000,000 in damages, which is about $500 at the black market rate or $100,000,000 at the official rate. Guess which rate Cabello will use to collect?

If the judgment was made in the local currency, why don't they just buy Bs. 1,000,000,000 on the black market?

# ¿ Jun 12, 2018 03:55

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Mukip posted:

Venezuela was promoted internationally for over a decade as a shining beacon of socialist resistance against the evils of capitalism. I think it's fair if people enjoy a bit of schadenfreude in pointing out that it's gone to poo poo. There's also parallels between people ignoring the warning signs in Venezuela and the Soviet apologists among the leftist intelligentsia is during the cold war. It begs the question of whether the left is capable of honestly assessing the performance of any notionally leftist government at all, or whether slogans and labels will suffice for them in all cases.

Presumably leftist schadenfreude about Donald Trump destroying the last vestiges of American idealism is also well justified. And the fact that rightists still regularly defend him shows that they are incapable of honestly assessing the performance of anyone who is on their nominal team.

# ¿ Jul 14, 2018 18:24

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Uh, isn't the simplest explanation that coca is easiest to cultivate in the Andean region, which is far larger in Colombia than in Venezuela?

# ¿ Jul 18, 2018 02:09

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:

Excellent book on how venezuelan reporting in the west is skewed by capitalist media reporters who often report from the comfort of their penthouses and pay locals for drummed up outrage stories

Venmo me the $15 and I'll gladly read it on my Kindle. Because "there exists a book" isn't really compelling, y'know?

# ¿ Aug 5, 2018 04:52

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:

Nobody's claiming that the sanctions are secret here. I just thought it was amusing that the trump state department slipped up and admitted in january that the sanctions were intended to force the state into default.

And that's the sum of the "economic hitjob"? Seems pretty fuckin' underwhelming.

# ¿ Aug 5, 2018 15:20

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:

Yeah purposefully demolishing a country's finances and causing it to default is underwhelming.

I'm sure you're unaware that the country's finances were demolished well before those the debt sanctions were ever put in place, and that you aren't being deliberately dishonest.

# ¿ Aug 5, 2018 15:44

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

fnox posted:

Maduro is worse than Pinochet by any metric. loving, please, find me one thing that Maduro has done right, one.

So far there are thousands fewer disappeared under Maduro, making this point less than ideal to debate.

# ¿ Aug 5, 2018 16:11

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

I'm starting to regret using my monkey's paw to wish we lived in a cyberpunk dystopia.

# ¿ Aug 5, 2018 23:28

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Balliver Shagnasty posted:

Still trying to figure out when anyone said this.

Somebody actually did say this.

# ¿ Aug 16, 2018 02:44

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

qkkl posted:

If I were designing a socialist economy I would set a very high minimum wage, build lots of farms and factories to make basic goods, set a generous limit on the number of groceries a citizen can buy, and give every citizen a special card to buy groceries to enforce the buying limit.

You may be confusing "socialism" with "SimCity."

# ¿ Aug 18, 2018 22:04

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Bob le Moche posted:

The state provides public funds for food importation at highly subsidized rates, of which Polar is among the top recipients. Here's a paper going into more details: https://www.aporrea.org/media/2016/10/la_cosecha._leg.pdf
I also never claimed it was owned by Pepsico from the start, wtf? As to why PSUV would subsidize this corporation, I'm pretty sure the idea is to help fund food imports as a way to address the crisis, within the limits imposed by the power of private capital.

I don't understand why you bring this up. What is your theory for why Harina PAN can be found in Sweden and not Venezuela?

A Venezuelan makes a really substantial post and this is your reply? You have no reply to the other 10/11ths of their post?

# ¿ Aug 31, 2018 22:34

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Bob le Moche posted:

I thought about responding to the obvious historical revisionism about the Caracazo (seriously, there are mass graves), and answering some of the attempts to distort what I was saying, but I fee like there's really no point with him. A lot of these points also don't really contradict anything I've said, just add more context. I'll stick to answering the actual question he asked me.

Jeez. Well, as long as we all agree that you have nothing to say.

# ¿ Aug 31, 2018 23:09

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Bob le Moche posted:

By the way, the point of food lines and price fixing is that they're humane approaches for a society dealing with a shortage of food, because the alternative is to just let suppliers inflate the price, allowing the rich who can pay more to have access to large quantities of food without having to wait in line, and letting everybody else starve. If you complain about food lines and your solution is to let the prices rise freely when most can't afford them, you're really just outing yourself as one of the people who won't have to worry about being able to afford the higher prices, and who don't care about what happens to the poors.

Yes, that's what people want, for the price to increase so that they can buy flour and the people just starve. That's exactly it. You loving idiot.

It's not like the entire point is that profound economic mismanagement has made affordable and attainable things unaffordable or unobtainable. It's purely about hatred of the poors. You loving idiot.

# ¿ Aug 31, 2018 23:35

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Bob le Moche posted:

What I don't want to do however is, as a North-American, to claim that I am in a better position that the Venezuelan working class to manage their economy or to know what's best for them or what socialism in Venezuela should look like, or to cast judgement on their attempts at dealing with the crisis.

This is such a laughably hypocritical position. You're continuously dismissing the position of actual Venezuelans. I suppose all emigres are bourgeois or class traitors to you.

# ¿ Sep 1, 2018 02:41

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Bob le Moche posted:

So the installation of a government similar to that of Pinochet, with the help of the US, would constitute a positive outcome for you?

Hey man, we have differences of opinion, but can we at least both agree that you're a worthless hypocrite? One who suspends all judgement for how socialism is being implemented in Venezuela, because those judgements belong to the people, but is totally contemptuous of any of the million emigres?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Sep 2, 2018 19:33

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

AstraSage posted:

I'd label it as a classic smokescreen towards International Outlets looking for updates on the Lack of Food Issue after the Salt Bae incident.

That said, you can also see closely in the image how (in)effective their fa�ade tactics tends to be: there's the desperation in filling all the visible shelves for a quick photo they don't care about how shameful all the empty spaces that are left behind barely one or two rows of just the same brand of Ketchup look...

Hahaha I didn't notice that.

Bob le Moche posted:

Why would a supermarket advertise its products? Smells fishy it must be part of a plot

It's fair to wonder why they're advertising the fact that they only have three products. Like, they should have at least cropped the second aisle out of the picture rather than trying to make it look full using the same sauce bottles.

# ¿ Sep 22, 2018 01:49

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# ¿ May 6, 2024 03:06

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

I see Heinz there. All Venezuela needs is lots of potatoes to fix the whole situation.

# ¿ Sep 22, 2018 06:22

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