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Majorian posted:Part of the reason why is because it's difficult to disaggregate the myriad causes for Venezuela's current awful state of affairs and say "This is all Maduro's fault" with any fairness. fnox is implying that the thousands of police-related deaths in the country can be definitively traced to some sort of systematic program deliberately set in motion by Maduro, and that just doesn't seem to be the case. Maduro doesn't seem to have that level of control over his police forces, the colectivos, or really anything outside of the military. (and even his control over the military seems to be spotty at best) Venezuela is much closer to a failed state than it is a truly authoritarian/totalitarian system. I feel bad that I edited the post after you put time in for an effort answer. Squalid posted:Also it’s hard to estimate numbers but Maduro’s terribel policies have killed huge numbers of people, probably thousands, via shortages, infrastructure collapse, and breakdown of rule of law. When cities lose power people die. Pretty much. Mao is the ultimate example of this.
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Jul 4, 2019 22:02
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I'll just stop beating around the bush. Majorian, how much do you think Maduro and the PSUV are responsible for the Venezuela's current situation, and where would you rank them in terms of tiers of lovely authoritarian regimes? It's clear you don't think Maduro is as bad as Pinochet, but who would you compare him to? punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Jul 5, 2019 |
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Jul 5, 2019 03:33
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fnox posted:He is responsible because the spike got worse with him. I will admit the political crisis comes from Chavez, and that some of the worst economic policies are actually Chavez’ ideas. So you believe that the current crisis and problems are due to Maduro and not Chavez? Like if Chavez was still around Venezuela would not be in its current state?
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Jul 5, 2019 07:55
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Majorian posted:I think Maduro and the PSUV are important contributing factors to how bad this crisis has become. There are other, comparably significant factors as well, imo, including sanctions, the oil crash, preexisting factors in the Venezuelan socioeconomic system that predate Chavez, etc etc. I don’t really see much utility in ranking him among other strongmen, other than that I think saying he’s worse than Pinochet is pretty nuts. Dude’s a pretty garden variety kleptocrat, just in a country that’s beset by a lot of other really bad problems that he’s making worse. I see. Thanks for the response. Do you think Venezuela would be experiencing as bad of a situation as it currently is if the PSUV was never in charge and instead a much more moderate or even right wing government (like Mauricio Macri in Argentina) were in charge?
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Jul 5, 2019 19:48
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Majorian posted:Probably. Right-wing and centrist governments before Chavez failed to diversify the Venezuelan economy for decades. When you've got a profit-driven system and a resource curse like massive petroleum reserves, you're probably going to end up with an under-diversified economy no matter what. I see. I feel that this is where a fundamental disagreement is between you and some other posters. Some would say that the price controls and the inefficient nationalization that have seemed to cause shortages in the country has played a massive role in things like the lack of medicine, food, and inflation. Do you not believe that these economic policies largely contributed to these things and that they would have happened if the government didn't pursue these policies?
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Jul 5, 2019 20:13
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As someone who has been posting in this thread and it's predecessor since 2010, it's been a wild loving ride. I almost feel like doing an effort post on it.
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Jul 9, 2019 23:46
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Majorian posted:No, it really isn't. Expressing support for the gains made under Chavez, and solidarity with the impoverished people that the revolution benefited, is not at all the same thing as expressing support for Maduro or his government. Again, the statement makes this clear, and you would know this if you had taken the time to read it.
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Jul 10, 2019 01:05
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Chavez didn't successfully create anything. He just had a HUGE windfall of increased cash due to heading a petrostate during a time of oil becoming highly valuable and decided to use most of that money in nationalizations and expanding social programs. Pretty much any economic model could have led Venezuela prosperity. If Venezuela didn't have oil, Chavez would have been lucky to last more than one term.
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Jul 10, 2019 03:57
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The "Chavez spent all the money on social programs" argument was always a stretch. Sure Venezuela had a robust social program system by Latin American standards, by Western standards it was so-so at best. Even at its peak Venezuela's budget into social programs was less than that of the United States.
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Jul 10, 2019 16:59
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Fnox, what are your thoughts on Chavez and the Bolivarian Revolution? What are your thoughts on "socialism" and what does that word mean to you?
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Jul 10, 2019 21:25
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zapplez posted:uhh... did you forget to log out of your alt? First post in the VZ thread eh? That isn't me, as I don't have (nor need) and alt account. That wording made me do a double take as well. Acebuckeye13 posted:Also worth considering is that Chavez's policies of expropriating/nationalizing businesses greatly contributed to making the state that much more reliant on oil revenues, as many of the businesses that got nationalized were handed over to party officials and effectively dismantled and stripped for parts. Did he really nationalize a greater share of businesses in the country than say Ecuador or Bolivia did?
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Jul 12, 2019 00:13
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420 Gank Mid posted:If that's true explain what you think was happening in 1990's Venezuela? In the 1990's oil prices were collapsing. They started surging just as Chavez was elected.
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Jul 15, 2019 00:10
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420 Gank Mid posted:It's almost like Venezuela would benefit from a massive diversification of its economy. If only there'd been a political movement that fought towards that despite the massive pushback from the privately owned industries enriching themselves. Yeah, if only.
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Jul 15, 2019 00:47
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So are the body counts from Venezuelan policy due to being political dissenters or police being criminal assholes? Like are the killings due to "we must kill the defectors of socialism" or just police being "trigger happy"? Also, how do these stats compare to say a decade ago? punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Jul 23, 2019 |
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Jul 23, 2019 18:54
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This thread really does just go in circles.
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Aug 3, 2019 17:11
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205 in just six months is very concerning. That said it's not the thousands that people have proclaimed. Though I recall that number being sourced though.
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Aug 9, 2019 16:43
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How do those numbers compare to say Colombia? Im curious to as of how extreme they are relative to Latin America.
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Aug 9, 2019 17:49
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Only includes two Latin American countries. But seeing Venezuela so much higher than El Salvador and Brazil per capita is telling.
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Aug 9, 2019 18:37
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GreyjoyBastard posted:And almost as importantly, one that future socialist governments should learn from and resolve more competently. This will never happen.
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Aug 13, 2019 22:43
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Venezuela's decline is worse than any other country not named "Syria". Greece is absolutely still a basketcase, but it's a basketcase that has settled after falling and breaking it's legs. Venezuela in contrast as been freefalling down the stairs breaking nearly every bone in its body and is still falling.
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Aug 13, 2019 23:35
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Venezuela has been having shortages of food and supplies for like ten years. Venezuelans living in Venezuela constantly posted so in this thread.
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Aug 14, 2019 05:08
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fnox, just curious, why did you choose Sweden over other countries like say Germany? Did they accept you as a refugee? punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 05:22
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fnox posted:Stuff. That's wild. Glad you got in. What do you think of Sweden? Does it bother you that it is one of the most left leaning European countries? Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Irrelevant to the effect of sanctions. A man is bleeding. You stab him fifty times. You say, "He was bleeding before I stabbed him!" Are you sane? The effects of the sanctions didn't jump Venezuela's issues as much as one thinks. Prior sanctions there was already widespread hunger. Even Maduro came out with a term for it, "The Maduro Diet." The analogy would be coming up to someone who was stabbed ten times, and stabbing them once more. However, at least you understand that Venezuela had issues with stocking food and common items before the sanctions. So that's progress.
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Aug 14, 2019 16:19
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Jose posted:Why do people defend the us sanctioning and embargoing Venezuela making starvation much worse just because it was already happening. It's absolutely bizarre that it's apparently acceptabke Where in my post did I say I was defending the sanctions?
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Aug 14, 2019 16:22
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Venezuela hosed up its economy so bad because instead of funding it's social programs, food production, infrastructure, and large scale projects via taxation from the greater economy, they instead just took money from oil revenue. Once oil prices dropped all the funding dried up, so the economy and infrastructure tanked. The crude oil price chart matches up with Venezuela's GDP history almost perfectly. 
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Aug 14, 2019 16:53
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Any amount of times greater than zero is unacceptable! "We only increased suffering by 10%, I reckon. That means I win the argument!" - That's you. So you admit that the lionshare of Venezuela's woes are due to the PSUV's policies. Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Great. The sanctions should be immediately and unconditionally lifted, then, right? Yes.
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Aug 14, 2019 17:17
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:No. I take no position on that whatsoever. It's not relevant to my objection to US Foreign Policy. Earlier you posted: Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Irrelevant to the effect of sanctions. A man is bleeding. You stab him fifty times. You say, "He was bleeding before I stabbed him!" Are you sane? "Fifty times" certainly implies the lion share of the cause.
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Aug 14, 2019 17:34
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Condiv: "The sanctions are solely responsible for Venezuela's shortages and other woes. Venezuela has great leaders who didn't mismanage anything while their economy has been destroyed solely by the USA." Me: "Actually Venezuela has been having these problems with the same intensity long before any sanctions." Far Lip: "That's dumb. Just because something was bad, doesn't excuse enacting policies that make things magnitudes of the order worse!" Me: "I didn't say I supported the sanctions, because I do not. I was merely correcting Condiv that they were not the sole or even majority reason for Venezuela's situation." Fat Lip: "That's not relevant to my point!!!" punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 17:52
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:What do you mean, the same intensity? See that sounds to me like a negation of the effect of sanctions, which you have already sought to minimize. Which I don't understand. You don't want the sanctions, but at the same time you don't think they're doing anything? If Venezuela pre-sanctions was an 8/10 in terms of fuckedupness, then Venezuela post-sanctions would be a 9/10. Still making things worse but nowhere near the cataclysmic "this is the reason why Venezuela is really messed up and the PSUV is innocent" that Condiv was implying.
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Aug 14, 2019 18:39
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:It doesn't mess things up more. It does make it impossible to fix. Like what happened when the British embargoed Ireland when the famine hit. Multiplying effect. A crisis is extended and made unresolvable through foreign pressure until the government falls to a designated proxy. Could you explain to me why the sanctions make Venezuela economic and infastructure reform impossible?
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Aug 14, 2019 19:14
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:Those kinds of reforms need resources to implement. Like the 4 billion in gold the US has blocked from returning from the bank of England, just as an example. I agree with all of this. Great post.
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Aug 14, 2019 19:43
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Fnox, what do you mean by "international pressure"? What do you want the United States and other countries to do to put pressure on the PSUV?
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Aug 14, 2019 21:50
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Uh... selling off public assets is the opposition's plan. Your brain is broken. The PSUV has been selling off public assets for a while now.
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Aug 15, 2019 16:33
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MikeStmria posted:Too many pages for me to go read all of them and I haven't been here since the start. What I can see in the last few is that if media is accurate on what is going on or not in Vz. Pretty much this.The video is old, and there are older ones similar to this. Shortages aren't primarily the result of sanctions, but rather just economic policies such as strict price controls. Aisles won't be stocked if food is sold at a loss.
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Aug 18, 2019 01:02
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:I believe the reality of scarcity. I believe the pivot toward more authoritarian rule by Maduro and the military as the situation worsens. I am skeptical of the sudden escalation of violence by the military, the claims of merciless attacks on indigenous groups and extrajudicial killings, as one poster called it, going 'full Pinochet'. I am skeptical because after the failure of Guaido and his subsequent fleeing, and given the history of the Venezuelan military, I find that kind of change in their tactics and applications of force towards their own to be unlikely, but somehow exactly when international will for intervention fizzles out over the scarcity and starvation, reports emerge to paint an escalation. There were many claims of this kind of thing in Syria, in Iraq, in many places that all turned out to be false in the aftermath of invasion. Coming from reputable sources, sources that in other situations could be relied upon but in those situation were laundering fabrications from vested parties and presenting them as fact. To be fair, he is referring to more so the scarcity, ruined economy, and growing authoritarianism in Venezuela than anything else. I've been posting in this thread and the previous one's for almost ten years now, and these issues have existed from day one. Things just gradually got worse and worse until Maduro came into power to which things went into a free fall. The overton window on people accepting scarcity, corruption, and anti-democratic policies has been twenty years in the making.
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Aug 18, 2019 19:51
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536 posted:When did Boots Riley become some kind of definite source on anything? The guy is a Tienanmen Square truther. gently caress that is disappointing. I love his movie and his speeches. I really hope this isn't true. 
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Aug 31, 2019 03:32
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Boots is a great artist but like a lot of smart successful dudes he doesn't know when it's time to put his dick away and listen. His interview on Democracy Now! Was incredible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdCPvMNKvhE Bob le Moche posted:Boots is an open and avowed communist, that's what both his music and his movie are about lol, I don't know what you were expecting. This has always been his fight and he's one of the only voices out there with a public platform opposing the US state department line on Venezuela. There are plenty of people on the far and extreme left who oppose Maduro and the PSUV. Hell, Adbusters ran a piece against the PSUV as far back as the early 2000s.
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Sep 5, 2019 22:24
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Tankies are simply fascists with a huge fetish on statism.
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Sep 6, 2019 17:41
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