Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

What is the over/under on Venezuela just descending into a full-on "Fascism with Chavista Characteristics" scenario as the petro state fails due to the price of oil staying at sub $40 a barrel, while being simultaneously diplomatically isolated due to the US re-establishing normal relations with Cuba?

e:

Umberto Eco posted:

In spite of some fuzziness regarding the difference between various historical forms of fascism, I think it is possible to outline a list of features that are typical of what I would like to call Ur-Fascism, or Eternal Fascism. These features cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it.

* * *

1. The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition.

Traditionalism is of course much older than fascism. Not only was it typical of counterrevolutionary Catholic thought after the French revolution, but is was born in the late Hellenistic era, as a reaction to classical Greek rationalism. In the Mediterranean basin, people of different religions (most of the faiths indulgently accepted by the Roman pantheon) started dreaming of a revelation received at the dawn of human history. This revelation, according to the traditionalist mystique, had remained for a long time concealed under the veil of forgotten languages -- in Egyptian hieroglyphs, in the Celtic runes, in the scrolls of the little-known religions of Asia.

This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the dictionary says, "the combination of different forms of belief or practice;" such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Each of the original messages contains a sliver of wisdom, and although they seem to say different or incompatible things, they all are nevertheless alluding, allegorically, to the same primeval truth.

As a consequence, there can be no advancement of learning. Truth already has been spelled out once and for all, and we can only keep interpreting its obscure message.

If you browse in the shelves that, in American bookstores, are labeled New Age, you can find there even Saint Augustine, who, as far as I know, was not a fascist. But combining Saint Augustine and Stonehenge -- that is a symptom of Ur-Fascism.

2. Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism.

Both Fascists and Nazis worshipped technology, while traditionalist thinkers usually reject it as a negation of traditional spiritual values. However, even though Nazism was proud of its industrial achievements, its praise of modernism was only the surface of an ideology based upon blood and earth (Blut und Boden). The rejection of the modern world was disguised as a rebuttal of the capitalistic way of life. The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.

3. Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action's sake.

Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes. Distrust of the intellectual world has always been a symptom of Ur-Fascism, from Hermann Goering's fondness for a phrase from a Hanns Johst play ("When I hear the word 'culture' I reach for my gun") to the frequent use of such expressions as "degenerate intellectuals," "eggheads," "effete snobs," and "universities are nests of reds." The official Fascist intellectuals were mainly engaged in attacking modern culture and the liberal intelligentsia for having betrayed traditional values.

4. The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism.

In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason.

5. Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity.

Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.

6. Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration.

That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups. In our time, when the old "proletarians" are becoming petty bourgeois (and the lumpen are largely excluded from the political scene), the fascism of tomorrow will find its audience in this new majority.

7. To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country.

This is the origin of nationalism. Besides, the only ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies. Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia. But the plot must also come from the inside: Jews are usually the best target because they have the advantage of being at the same time inside and outside. In the United States, a prominent instance of the plot obsession is to be found in Pat Robertson's The New World Order, but, as we have recently seen, there are many others.

8. The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies.

When I was a boy I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers of Ur-Fascism must also be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluating the force of the enemy.

9. For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.

Thus pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. It is bad because life is permanent warfare. This, however, brings about an Armageddon complex. Since enemies have to be defeated, there must be a final battle, after which the movement will have control of the world. But such "final solutions" implies a further era of peace, a Golden Age, which contradicts the principle of permanent war. No fascist leader has ever succeeded in solving this predicament.

10. Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic elitism cruelly implies contempt for the weak.

Ur-Fascism can only advocate a popular elitism. Every citizen belongs to the best people in the world, the members or the party are the best among the citizens, every citizen can (or ought to) become a member of the party. But there cannot be patricians without plebeians. In fact, the Leader, knowing that his power was not delegated to him democratically but was conquered by force, also knows that his force is based upon the weakness of the masses; they are so weak as to need and deserve a ruler.

11. In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero.

In every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist ideology heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death. It is not by chance that a motto of the Spanish Falangists was Viva la Muerte ("Long Live Death!"). In nonfascist societies, the lay public is told that death is unpleasant but must be faced with dignity; believers are told that it is the painful way to reach a supernatural happiness. By contrast, the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death.

12. Since both permanent war and heroism are difficult games to play, the Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters.

This is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality). Since even sex is a difficult game to play, the Ur-Fascist hero tends to play with weapons -- doing so becomes an ersatz phallic exercise.

13. Ur-Fascism is based upon a selective populism, a qualitative populism, one might say.

In a democracy, the citizens have individual rights, but the citizens in their entirety have a political impact only from a quantitative point of view -- one follows the decisions of the majority. For Ur-Fascism, however, individuals as individuals have no rights, and the People is conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the Common Will. Since no large quantity of human beings can have a common will, the Leader pretends to be their interpreter. Having lost their power of delegation, citizens do not act; they are only called on to play the role of the People. Thus the People is only a theatrical fiction. There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.

Because of its qualitative populism, Ur-Fascism must be against "rotten" parliamentary governments. Wherever a politician casts doubt on the legitimacy of a parliament because it no longer represents the Voice of the People, we can smell Ur-Fascism.

14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak.

Newspeak was invented by Orwell, in Nineteen Eighty-Four, as the official language of what he called Ingsoc, English Socialism. But elements of Ur-Fascism are common to different forms of dictatorship. All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning. But we must be ready to identify other kinds of Newspeak, even if they take the apparently innocent form of a popular talk show.

* * *

Ur-Fascism is still around us, sometimes in plainclothes. It would be so much easier for us if there appeared on the world scene somebody saying, "I want to reopen Auschwitz, I want the Blackshirts to parade again in the Italian squares." Life is not that simple. Ur-Fascism can come back under the most innocent of disguises. Our duty is to uncover it and to point our finger at any of its new instances � every day, in every part of the world. Franklin Roosevelt's words of November 4, 1938, are worth recalling: "If American democracy ceases to move forward as a living force, seeking day and night by peaceful means to better the lot of our citizens, fascism will grow in strength in our land." Freedom and liberation are an unending task.

Looks like Maduro's government is 14 for 14 to my eye.

Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Aug 25, 2015

# ¿ Aug 25, 2015 22:17

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# ¿ May 3, 2024 16:37

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Regarde Aduck posted:

This is all western governments. While it's true it's also very broad. The overton window of the globe moved right with the 2008 economic crash. Consider what major Western nation isn't a hotbed of traditionalism? And the great migrant crisis of 2015 means most of Europe is now ready to kill every brown person that looks at them funny.

This is not a thread about all western governments, the overton window, the 2008 economic crash, or the 'great migrant crisis of 2015'.

This is a thread about Venezuela, which is currently creating a massive humanitarian crisis by mass deportations of a minority population. Venezuela's current government seems intent upon abandoning concepts of justice, the rule of law, democracy, and even its stated leftist principles of equality and fairness - unless you consider a country-wide race to the bottom as being equal and fair.

I am glad to take your argument at face value though; certainly, all government, and western governments, contain many elements of fascism. We can play semantic games all we want, but Venezuela is currently controlled by a government and party that is xenophobic, authoritarian, and nationalistic - with a thin veneer of Chavismo used primarily as an excuse for all of those traits.

# ¿ Aug 26, 2015 19:10

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

nah guys you see in all Western Governments, the voting is just bought by special interest groups and super PACs, having the ruling party in government use outright voter intimidation is exactly the same everywhere else and therefor perfectly fine, also que viva Chavez

# ¿ Aug 31, 2015 18:17

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Peel posted:

We also have calls for assassination and armed revolution ITT, it's just how anglophone venezuelachat goes.

And sadly those calls for, of all things, armed death squads and civil war, are probably entirely serious.

# ¿ Sep 12, 2015 23:40

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Don't forget all of the Jacobin coverage of Venezuela. People like George Ciccariello-Maher (a white assistant poli-sci professor at Drexel University in Philadelphia) are 100% real after all.

Even looks vaguely familiar!

e: Re: Monsieur Jimmie d'Borneo, if anything he is a useful strawman that makes the internet leftist reactionaries who rush to the defense of Maduro look far worse then they really are. After all, there are no mealy-mouthed half-concessions with plenty of pearl clenching and soul searching, its just the flat out fog-horn blare of the PSUV propaganda machine. Its easy to identify, its easy to criticize.

Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Oct 19, 2015

# ¿ Oct 19, 2015 15:58

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Ardennes posted:

That said,

Do you want to take a deep breath and re-write that post dude? It hurts to try and read it in a single sitting. I think I understand your general argument - that certain things could be adjusted and fixed, and it isn't really a left-right issue except that the PSUV has chosen to frame those things as one.

My view is that people are welcome to their decades of finger pointing; they are going to do it anyway, so why not. It does not change the fact that the PSUV has been in uncontested control of the country for 8 years, and own its current situation.

Chavez's legacy is successfully raising the living standards of many of the very poorest in the country. However, that rise has come at many real costs to the fabric of Venezuelan society - crime, corruption, cronyism, the destruction of industry and enterprise, etc. These are both inseparable parts of the history of the PSUV.

What no one talks about is that many of those early gains that Chavez achieved were affordable to the country due to the high price of oil. Now, with the rise of shale oil and gas, the entire world economy has changed and will continue to change. If people want finger pointing, they can point at that - its probably the largest contributor to the current instability in Venezuela, the fact that the state cannot simply use petrol dollars to pay for everything. The PSUV wants to live in a style it can no longer afford. Sure, it could win the next election through cheating, and it can sabotage any new government through rigging the courts, but all it is going to do is kick the can down the road.

Things are going to get worse before they get better.

# ¿ Oct 19, 2015 16:35

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Chavez made a habit of using state funds to buy American celebrities. Danny Glover got $18M USD to make a film (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/may/21/film.venezuela).

quote:

ABC points out that the sums deposited in the suspect accounts tend to average about 10-15% the total value of contracts awarded to Chinese firms for infrastructure projects in Venezuela.

lol

# ¿ Nov 6, 2015 16:59

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

With oil prices crashing due to OPEC production Venezuela's current accounts are in deep poo poo. With the price of oil so low, it makes removing the fuel subsidy more palatable, but it also makes keeping it in place more affordable.

The real issue is going to be when they audit the books. If the courts get made into real agents of justice, I think a lot of PSUV leadership is going to jail for fraud and embezzlement - or at least tried for it, and possibly then have the cases dropped for the cause of national unity.

Either way, the crisis is not over, not at USD $43 a barrel oil.

# ¿ Dec 7, 2015 21:55

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Illuminati Repto-hominid Egyptofascists HATE this one weird trick to starting a Bolivian Revolution!

# ¿ Dec 21, 2015 17:45

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

My Imaginary GF posted:

Would you rather live under an illegitimate PSUV government which has seized power through bureaucratic coup, or under a Peronesque right-wing strongman?

Ghost of Mussolini posted:

.

I like this combo.

# ¿ Dec 24, 2015 19:35

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Labradoodle posted:

Today's session just kicked off and the government predictably went a step further and used the regulatory body for media to ban live transmissions. I'm watching via Periscope (https://www.periscope.tv/w/1MnxnVNQPboxO) and the last 3 deputies were just sworn in. Chavismo replied by saying that due to that action, all decisions by the assembly will be considered null and void.

Now, the legal issue here is: the ruling by the Supreme Court used an illegal recording as evidence and furthermore, they have no authority to declare the elections void since the electoral council already proclaimed those 3 deputies as the winners. Once that occurred, parliamentary immunity kicked in and they could only be stripped of their power by a majority of the new assembly, which chavismo does not have.

The PSUV assembly members just left the building again and now the MUD is moving onto the second order of the day: the illegitimacy of the Supreme Court itself. The constitutional crisis just started, folks.

I think the MUD is taking the correct response by refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of the Supreme Court. This is provoking a constitutional crisis, and its the natural outcome of the destruction of impartial institutions by Chavez and his supporters. The system is rigged to be a Chavismo system; it has to be dismantled and turned back into a legitimate democracy, which is going to be a painful process as %% of the country wants to continue the previous status-quo.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2016 21:33

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

If Venezuela starts to have power generation issues like you noted, food insecurity is going to get even worse due to spoilage from lack of refrigeration.

What is a realistic way out of the current hyperinflation trap?

# ¿ Feb 10, 2016 22:11

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Do we think the recall election will happen?

# ¿ May 11, 2016 16:11

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Labradoodle posted:

Yes, but the key issue here is when it happens. The PSUV will throw every wrench it can in its way, but I believe the must understand that at least getting rid of Maduro would ease tensions and buy them more time. The problem is that if it happens after January 10, 2017 the vice president gets to remain in charge for the rest of Maduro's period. Whereas if it's held earlier, new presidential elections must be called.

That's why we've seen to many PSUV spokespersons lately saying that there just isn't any time to hold the referendum during this year and why they're inventing artificial roadblocks to slow it down.

Thank you both, that explains a lot to me.

# ¿ May 11, 2016 17:03

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

My (goony, huge) lunch for today, 2 Philly arepas, $8 USD ea, $16 USD total, or a mere 159.20 Bol�var! Right-Wing Fascist Thugs say it is 17753.92 Bs

Don't worry, the left in the US feels your pain and understands the depth of the crisis

Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 17:47 on May 19, 2016

# ¿ May 19, 2016 17:44

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Hugoon Chavez posted:

Oh my sweet god is that actual Venezuelan white Llanero cheese? Because I can't find that poo poo in Spain and I miss it so loving much.

its like $10/lb here but you can get it

http://www.sazonphilly.com/reviews.htm

this place is pretty good if you want to try some home cuisine if you are ever here

# ¿ May 19, 2016 18:11

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Chuck Boone posted:

Here are some links on yesterday's announcement and a press conference Padrino Lopez gave earlier for anyone interested:

http://www.lapatilla.com/site/2016/07/12/militares-coordinan-desde-este-martes-la-distribucion-y-resguardo-de-alimentos-y-medicinas/

http://www.vtv.gob.ve/articulos/2016/07/11/pdte.-maduro-lanza-la-gran-mision-de-abastecimiento-soberano-y-seguro-2375.html

http://www.noticierodigital.com/2016/07/maduro-lanza-gran-mision-para-el-abastecimiento-soberano-y-seguro/

http://www.el-nacional.com/politica/Padrino-Lopez-militarizar-poner-disciplina_0_883111759.html

http://www.eluniversal.com/noticias/economia/intervencion-fan-economia-normalizara-abastecimiento_319025

This is part of what Padrino Lopez said during a press conference earlier today:

Thanks, one of my Venezuelan ex-pat friends was saying "Well, at least someone else is now at the helm of this sinking ship".

# ¿ Jul 12, 2016 21:08

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

El Hefe posted:

Banks aren't paying checks worth more than $10 lol it has begun and the bank superintendency ordered banks not to pay or allow anyone to withdraw more than $5 daily starting next month.

You know I read this and was like "Oh man that is terrible, like India is going to destroy the poor and those in a cash based system" and then I was like "Oh wait there is already no god drat food or medicine in the whole country that isn't being seized by the crooks in power."

poo poo just goes from bad to worse and the MUD is the most useless opposition I have ever seen.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2016 18:54

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Ofaloaf posted:

Is there another source for that story other that Drudge Report?

the drudge report is linking to the WaPo story, headline and all, friend - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...m=.9cd51ebf8175

gj on reflexively shooting from the hip at the first messenger you saw tho

AmericanBarbarian posted:

It's kinda sad to see a lot of academics on twitter engage in a defense of George Ciccariello for being a shitposting edge-lord who fellates Maduro's govt.

Suddenly, it is very important among Marxist circles that you don't use shame/group pressure tactics against people for exercising their freedom of speech online[1]

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2016/12/not-here-to-make-friends-a-statement-of-support-for-george-ciccariello-maher

because Solidarity, you see, means a Movement is judged by how it treats the most edgelordeist of its members

[1] unless they say something that is the same as 'violence', then its OK to report them to the police/call their school/call their church/doxx the gently caress out of them, but of course the twitter mob will judge fairly against the miscreants[2]
[2] miscreants are ppl w/ Bad political views[3]
[3] speaking of bad views looking forward to Ciccariello's defense of forced sterilizations, after he first denounces it as a CIA lie, but then Maduro goes on TV a few days later and is like "Yes, this is new national policy, for the good of the country'.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2016 16:15

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Chuck Boone posted:

No problem. Thank you for taking an interest in this!

I want to say thanks too. Your insights are extremely valuable.

# ¿ Apr 19, 2017 19:00

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

So where do things go from here? Will the government capitulate, or is there going to be more blood on the streets?

# ¿ Apr 21, 2017 17:28

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Thank you for the NTN24 link, Chuck

# ¿ May 1, 2017 19:30

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

tempted to make a poopootov GBS thread and become a superstar

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...m=.4d6c840c6df7

quote:

The security forces, my colleagues report, �appear increasingly determined to choke the protest movement with brute force, including the use of copious amounts of tear gas. Several protesters have been killed or severely injured by gas canisters fired into crowds or allegedly dropped from government helicopters. Last week, a young man was injured when he was run over by an armored police vehicle that plowed through a melee.�

In response, protesters have adopted some unusual tactics. Many sport armor and helmets retrofitted from household goods. And, after being confronted by countless rounds of tear gas, some came to the streets Wednesday with a nasty new weapon: fecal matter. According to a Reuters report, some protesters were making �poopootov cocktails� � plastic or glass jars filled with a mix of water and human excrement.

(Image is direct from the article, and its not particularly gross, but spoilered to be safe)

�The kids go out with just stones. That's their weapon. Now they have another weapon: excrement,� a 51-year-old dentist said to Reuters while preparing containers of feces in her home.

This revolting state of affairs is in part the consequence of a rolling economic crisis and recession. Since Maduro took office in 2013, Venezuela's economy has cratered, inflation has soared and Venezuelans have endured food shortages and blackouts that shuttered hospitals. As we wrote earlier, whole swaths of the population are reporting acute weight loss and a cutback in their daily meals. This week, the Venezuelan government published shocking new data: The country's infant mortality rose 30 percent last year, maternal mortality shot up 65 percent and cases of malaria jumped 76 percent.

As Maduro extends the crackdown and even hauls civilians before military tribunals, there's a growing sense that external pressure is needed to ease the crisis. All eyes are on a meeting of the Organization of American States, or OAS, expected this month, where Venezuela will be at the forefront of the agenda. Maduro has threatened to pull out of the regional alliance, which is headquartered in Washington. If he follows through, it would make Venezuela only the second country after Cuba not to belong to the hemispheric bloc.

the "revolting state of affairs" joke was bolded in the original article. perfect. :discourse:

Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 07:26 on May 11, 2017

# ¿ May 11, 2017 07:20

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Homeroom Fingering posted:

It's all bullshit of course, but do Venezuelans really care if something was made in Israel or did he take the How To Become A Dictator guide from Turkey and forget to change all the fields?

Yeah this one baffled me too, was it 'The attackers used an Israeli made TN-9X gas grenade.' or is it "The Jews Did This(tm)"?

# ¿ Jun 28, 2017 13:38

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Bob le Moche posted:

The other thing that you folks need to understand about all these evil "crazy" brown/oriental dictators that your media keeps warning you about, is that they only get to be where they are in the first place, and to be able to maintain a strong enough base of popular support for their "authoritarian" policies, because they are seen as the only line of defense against foreign imperialism and the brutal pressures of international capitalism. If you want the "strongmen" to go away, you should work towards making your own government stop systematically harassing/threatening/attacking every country that ever questions its hegemony, and allow the people of the world to have some self-determination without policing the outcome.

I completely applaud this brave post, and brave poster. We need to step back, and let Venezuelans living in the country have some self-determination without policing the outcome.

Like, for example, if they don't like the current government and are staging massive protests, we need to say "This is what they choose, they are trying to remove a government they don't like" rather than saying they're all CIA stooges and its a yanqui plot to overthrow an idiot and his gang of thieves.

I am glad you have finally come around.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2017 16:46

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

You aren't even reading this thread are you?

I think there have been... two? posters who said "we need an armed rebellion/civil war" and the immediate response was "gently caress no, and a double gently caress no to any foreign intervention".

Everyone agrees that Venezuelans need to decide their own future. They're trying to do that right now. To then say 'Nah, they don't actually have any agency, they're all just CIA pawns." is so loving mindblowingly tankie stupid, and racist. not everything is about the loving USA. Venezuela has a really bad case of Dutch Disease and Maduro and his cronies are only concerned with holding unto the wealth and power that the oil brings them, and not on trying to continue a socialist government. why are you so devoted to carrying water for Maduro, he's terrible, and he is taking the whole apparatus of the PSUV down with him.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2017 16:56

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Maduro is going to literally bring in the army and tanks to plow through the opposition barricades and even then the various tankies here will just all start applauding at his heroic struggle against the Imperialist Yanqui CIA

I'd like to point out that you've also conjured this myth out of thin air of 'burning black venezuelans alive' that you keep repeating like it will make it true; it is literally Soviet ""А у вас негров линчуют!" tu quoque bullshit, with the added effect of also not being remotely true.

You all seriously need to get the gently caress off lefty twitter, the echo chamber of bullshit regarding venezuela is rotting your brains and you are backing a kleptocrat and his thieves.

Oil prices dropping below $70/barrel is not a CIA conspiracy. Maduro and his cronies stealing everything not nailed down, Yeltsin style, has nothing to do with socialism.

Lastly, the CIA is currently busy training Jihadis and ISIS fighters in Syria to try and drag us into a war with Iran / more ForeverWar in the middle east. The CIA went all-in on pushing the Russian Hacking narrative and getting the current round of sanctions passed; I'm sorry to say but the agency is actually pretty loving incompetent and out in the open about poo poo. They're not actively trying to arrange a coup in venezuela at all - think about all of the leaks coming out of every orifice of the white house, and how its been total radio silence on Venezuela - Obama didn't care, Trump doesn't care, all of the focus and attention is on N. Korea, Syria, and Iran.

Like, don't know how to put this in any sane way: Yes the CIA exists. Yes it interferes in other countries. Yes it has interfered in south america extensively. No, it is not the driving force behind the unrest in Venezuela - low oil prices and Maduro being an incompetent thief leading a gang of thieves is the reason why things are bad in Venezuela. Its not even a referendum on socialism; people are literally starving to death because the current Maduro government has criminally mismanaged everything they've touched while enriching themselves. If you can't understand that, and keep looking for shadow players and engaging in crazy, tankie explanations deflections like CIA coup or "burning black venezuelans alive" or trying to paint the opposition as this dangerous right-winger Nazi-party-in-waiting, you're just going to look more and more deranged.

Let the Venezuelan people sort this mess out; don't carry water for Maduro and his thieves.

# ¿ Jul 31, 2017 16:41

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Bob le Moche posted:

I don't care to insist too much about there being right-wing elements in the opposition because it's not really that relevant to my own position. But random far-right nuts on twitter were also dismissed as inoffensive until they got the current US president elected. So again I think it's understandable why some people might be worried, because these accounts are the first people to appear in your mentions if you express any doubts about the opposition.

its because you are on left-wing twitter and the anti-communists like that Cuban guy fnox just referred to are following your convos to jump in and engage in rhetorical battle with you. again, get off of lefty-twitter, its rotting your brain

# ¿ Jul 31, 2017 16:48

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

brian posted:

I don't know, should probably just quote the bits where they do that because it's self explanatory if it's such an obviously terrible stance to take, because the moment you use loaded words like tankie I'm going to assume you're intentionally twisting what they're saying to suit your outrage. If you can argue your point without using any term that pigeon holes the person you're arguing with it means people who are tired of dogwhistle nonsense and so on will listen to you, because regardless of how justified you may be it just reminds a lot of tired internet reading people of everything from the whole fox news huffington post style of righteous indignation as a form of never debating your own value system stuff

You can just read what they have been posting for the past few days, instead of getting upset that such a loaded word like [[Tankie]] was used to describe their positions. What type of bullshit civility do you want in response to people making the bad faith argument 'sure, sebin abducted political opposition in the middle of the night, but have you considered that it is in fact cool and also good? they were no angels.'

If you cannot judge the facts and come to your own conclusion without getting into a huff over the (incredibly accurate) use of the term tankie then I don't know, perhaps you should read the thread.

# ¿ Aug 1, 2017 15:50

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Glad to see some hard evidence for "Maduro and his gang of thieves have been looting the country", we all knew it was 100% true because we're not brain dead, but this can shut up concern troll style critics.

I went past the arepas food truck yesterday and generally just felt terrible about the situation Venezuela finds itself in. Right now, I have zero hope for the situation. I think things are going to get worse, and worse, and worse.

# ¿ Aug 24, 2017 21:46

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

People can contain multitudes. You can be lovely on one issue and good on another and vice versa. But in general talking about Venezuela abroad has always been a story of foreigners playing political football with both sides kicking the issues, triumphs, and problems around to score domestic points.

The reality of �things have gotten really lovely� is accepted by all, and there is very little I can do about it for my Venezuelan and Columbian friends except to try and help them send some $$ to relatives still in the country.

On the bright side, Maduro has been a really strong force for equality in Venezuela - now no one has access to water, electricity, or medicine ! Finally equal.

# ¿ May 4, 2018 13:58

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Labradoodle posted:

It's also worth noting Banesco is the easiest bank to send remittances through. All the 'underground' money exchange services use Banesco because it was generally the most reliable bank to send large quantities of money through. I'm a bit concerned about how this is going to shake out because it might make sending money home much more difficult. I'm sure there'll be workarounds, but my guess is the government finally took notice how much money is flowing in from remittances and they decided they should be the ones handling all that cash.

Wow great, this is going to gently caress over a lot of people I know. Maduro manages to keep making things worse and worse. Literally find out about this the same day I posted about helping my friends relatives by sending remittances... everything about Venezuela continues to be the darkest of comedy.

# ¿ May 4, 2018 19:58

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

https://twitter.com/snakenovoa/status/1043197991975309312

# ¿ Sep 21, 2018 22:28

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

did you miss the part where he proclaimed someone being democratically elected having challenged Maduro from the left would be Doubling Down On The Maduro Government, and therefore Bad

it was really funny

Okay so you'd support, say, a party admitted into the Socialist International, that supports combining state economic planning that guides the efforts and expectations of capital, labor and consumption with Ordoliberal social markets, and that rejects neoliberal policies and believe that economic growth must benefit the people more equally?

Because that would be Un Nuevo Tiempo (UNT), which is a member of the Mesa de la Unidad Democr�tica (unidad) electoral coalition, which took control of the national assembly in opposition to the PSUV. The UNT is the 2nd largest party in Unidad.

UNT is who is contesting Maduro right now, you realize? There WAS a democratically elected challenge from the left, Maduro and his cronies dissolved the National Assembly rather than acknowledge them and then packed the courts with appointed, not elected, supreme court judges.

It was tried already, and Maduro just solidified his support among the military by giving out more looted money to the top brass; authoritarian dictatorship 101 poo poo here. To keep the money and benefits flowing, it had to come from somewhere else, hence all of the drug trafficking and massive debt-trap loans from China and Russia.

Again, you people keep talking about Yanqui Imperialism and Coups, but Maduro is the one who launched a coup backed by the military and his self-appointed judiciary to seize power by refusing to seat MUD national assembly members and then declaring the entire body illegitimate.

This was 2 years ago. People have continued to starve and things have continued to get worse, while Maduro has gotten literally fatter in a gross analogy to how his cronies are busy looting everything from the country and storing their ill-gotten wealth overseas as fast as possible.

That said, the US should not intervene militarily in any way (armed forces or providing arms), but putting diplomatic pressure on the regime by refusing to endorse its legitimacy is a good idea. I am also worried that this is a smoke-screen for Bolton to try his Iraq War playbook again, and I don't want the horrors from that, but please stop pretending that democratic means to remove Maduro were not attempted; they tried and failed due to authoritarian actions.

Currently, the PSUV is not a socialist organization; its a kleptocratic party that is looting everything for dollars (capital) and then offshoring the wealth. The only thing uniting the Maduro regime is the control of the armed forces and police, which is being paid for by further looting and by loans promising Venezuelan land, oil, and other resources to the foreign regimes of Russia and China. An intentional move by those countries attempting to gain an Imperialist foothold in the global south, its the EXACT playbook China has been following in Africa. This is just the IMF and Imperialism with Russo-Chinese Characteristics.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2019 18:41

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Labradoodle posted:

Quick correction, Guaido is a member of Voluntad Popular, not Un Nuevo Tiempo. However, the characterization of the party remains spot on.

I know, but VP was also part of Unidad, though 1 seat less than UNT, and the basic point is that the MUD didn't want 'economic reforms' or neolib speak for radical changes to the Venezuelan system, they wanted Maduro and his cronies to stop stealing everything they could get their hands on and stop arresting and murdering people with impunity.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2019 18:49

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

elgatofilo posted:

I have never argued against US intervention, so I'm glad we agree that this is an intervention. If anything, what I'm happy about is that there is at least a path to doing this without a land invasion.

If you look back at my posts in this thread, as a Venezuelan-American I've consistently advocated for American intervention going back at least 2 years. I understand this makes me a "bad brown person" that needs American history and culture whitesplained to me so that I understand what's actually good for me; but I'm generally pretty deeply unconcerned with the optics in this situation.

Whereas I and others think any US intervention should be examined critically and those in power in the USA should not rush into Next Steps, because of the hard lesson of US intervention in the middle east; Syria started out as "We must stop Assad from gassing his own people, Assad Must Go" and was quickly turned into a "The US must occupy a position in Syria forever to counterbalance a Damascus-Moscow-Tehran axis of power" in most of the "respectable" foreign coverage.

Making a diplomatic statement is one thing, freezing overseas assets of individuals is one thing, a blockade is an entirely different beast and an easy opportunity to spark an armed conflict.

Military intervention, in any form, by the USA would be extremely bad for everyone involved, the USA included, so as a Venezuelan-American I'd hope you'd wish the best for both countries and to avoid that situation.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2019 20:14

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

https://twitter.com/AmericoDeGrazia/status/1098951797190864896

NSFW / content warning because of blood and injuries.

the regime is shooting people now, eager to hear the justifications from the various Maduro supporters here how this is both Necessary and Good.

https://twitter.com/AmericoDeGrazia/status/1098972790122860544

Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Feb 22, 2019

# ¿ Feb 22, 2019 19:14

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

kidkissinger posted:

Is there any context beyond this tweet for this video?

https://twitter.com/AmericoDeGrazia/status/1098972790122860544

edit:

They didn't try to arrest these people, they loving shot them in cold blood and two are now dead. Welcome to a taste of more to come.

It was Pemon tribespeople, indigenous people to Venezeula, who were trying to keep the border open to receive supplies. The regime answered them with bullets and death.

Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Feb 22, 2019

# ¿ Feb 22, 2019 19:17

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

the people saying that "regardless of bringing in Elliot Abrams to facilitate the opposition's transition to power, we should still support the opposition," OP.

what about the people saying "regardless of one of Maduro's generals ordering his troop to open fire on indigenous tribespeople trying to receive aid, killing 2 and wounding 14, we should still support the regime"

Just go on the record here saying you support the regime's murder of indigenous people, since thats the standard you are trying to apply to everyone else regarding support of Elliot Abrams.

# ¿ Feb 22, 2019 19:33

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# ¿ May 3, 2024 16:37

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

Presenting Nipples posted:

All these posters talking about "incredible" sources are using Elliot Abrams and Donald Trump talking points without a hint of irony about who they are sourcing there information from.

Like where do you think all these western outlets are getting their reporting from? They don't have journalists anymore. They are just repeating talking points given to them by the state department.

https://twitter.com/ClavelRangel/status/1099011013448474626

Jorge P�rez, councilman in Gran Sabana (district where the town his located), in his own words describing the soldiers opening fire. How is that for a source? Or he is repeating talking points from the US state department?

# ¿ Feb 22, 2019 19:50

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

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