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Canine Blues Arooo posted:That is obviously a huge topic, but I really want an honest discussion without a purely humanitarian viewpoint, because while we should help our fellow man, it simply isn't that simple and saying, 'Well, it IS that simple' is pretty dishonest. What viewpoints other than the humanitarian should we be using to look at this problem?
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Sep 4, 2015 03:39
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| # ¿ May 15, 2024 18:40 |
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McDowell posted:How are you going to bring the war in Syria/Iraq to an immediate end?
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Sep 4, 2015 03:49
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Kaal posted:Because generally that terminology is largely semantic. Is an African immigrant leaving the country because his family ticked off the local dictator and he can no longer find work, or is he leaving the country because he can't find work (because the only jobs available are reserved for friends of the local dictator). The former might be classified as a refugee, whereas the latter would be a migrant. So you disagree with Amnesty Intl. on this topic, and think they're wrong? https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2014/12/7-things-you-probably-didn-t-know-about-migrants/ quote:5. How is a migrant different from a refugee or an asylum-seeker?
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Sep 4, 2015 06:48
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Kaal posted:Rather that you simply don't appreciate how those distinctions work in practice. So I mean do you think there's a difference, or is there not? And is there any question in your mind as to which camp people fleeing Syria are in? Because if not, what's your point?
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Sep 4, 2015 06:54
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Kaal posted:On a Wikipedia list comparing all the countries of the world, or a Facebook info graphic? No there's practically no difference at all. In the real world, most people straddle the line and desperately hope for whatever status can grant them the longest stay (which isn't necessarily refugee status). The vast, vast majority of the folks fleeing Syria will be classified as asylum-seekers, and perhaps eventually as refugees, and they'll spend the next few years bouncing around European aid organizations before their visa expires and they are returned to Syria. Sorry but your thing about "a wikipedia list or facebook info graphic" is confusing me. Are you referring to the graphic EMarx posted? And what exactly are you trying to say about it, that's it''s misleading because it doesn't take into account migrant laborers entering the US? And it seems that you're saying that yes, people fleeing Syria are refugees? Or maybe you aren't and that they "straddle the line" and so the migrant/refugee distinction is meaningless? Sorry but honestly I'm not sure what you're saying. Just to be clear, my position is that people fleeing Syria are refugees and invoking migrant laborers when comparing numbers is disingenuous, as I agree with Amnesty when they make distinctions between the two groups.
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Sep 4, 2015 07:10
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Kaal posted:Well none of the people fleeing Syria are refugees since that's a specifically designated status bestowed by the UNHCR, which they haven't had time to be assigned. Which I suppose is rather the point. If you are casually comparing numbers without context or appreciation for what those numbers mean, then quibbling over details that you're going to ignore anyway doesn't make much of a difference. What I'm saying is actually look at the issue. If you did, you'd see that these sorts of numbers change quite a bit year to year, as refugee populations are quickly converted from asylum seekers, into refugees, then into residents/citizens or returned to the origin country. So a Somali that the US took in as a refugee, then gained a permanent residency, would no longer be represented as an American refugee despite continuing to live in the United States. Since you don't seem that concerned about the specific details of the status, nor comparing the overall yearly trend or immigrant population rather than a per capita, there's really no point in making hay over the specifics of the designations since you're ignoring them. Well first of all you're not bothering to answer simple questions like "are you referring to this graph," or "is Amnesty Intl. right or wrong," that would help me make sense of what you're trying to say. But I'd like to focus on this statement: Kaal posted:Well none of the people fleeing Syria are refugees since that's a specifically designated status bestowed by the UNHCR, which they haven't had time to be assigned. which is just wrong. You're trying to make some technically-correct point, but even the UNHCR doesn't support it, as they list over 3 million refugees from Syria: http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49e486a76.html quote:It also includes persons in a refugee-like situation for whom refugee status has, for practical or other reasons, not been ascertained. In the absence of Government figures, UNHCR has estimated the refugee population in many industrialized countries based on 10 years of individual asylum-seeker recognition. So even if their refugee status hasn't been ascertained and they don't have all the right stamps in their file, it would be ridiculous to pretend like they're not, in the real world, refugees, regardless of their status on paper. Which is something that you, for whatever reason, seem to insist on doing, even bringing in the UNHCR to support that argument, even though they in fact disagree with you and feel it's totally good to go ahead and put these people in the "refugees" box on their graph. It's like you're saying "The right boxes haven't been checked, they're not refugees! They're just people moving around in some quantum state until years after the fact and their paperwork has been sorted," while the UNHCR is like "Nah those people fleeing ISIS and Assad are totally refugees."
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Sep 4, 2015 07:47
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Who cares if some dude who just wants a better life gets saved as long as it means people fleeing hell on earth also get saved?
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Sep 4, 2015 20:02
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