The Refugee Crisis - a crisis of conscience - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Refugee Crisis - a crisis of conscience

Mandy Thompson: Dec 26, 2014; by zen death robot

The media has this weird habit of using the term "migrant" instead of "refugee" which is what the overwhelming majority of these folks are.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/09/03/437206335/hungarys-premier-defends-handling-of-migrant-crisis

quote:

'Hungarian Public Opinion Is In Shock' Regarding Migrant Crisis

ROBERT SIEGEL, HOST:

Today at the main train station in Budapest in Hungary, service was cut off for hundreds of migrants trying to get to Germany. The angry crowds erupted into protest, at times chanting the name of German Chancellor Angela Merkel. Her country's expected to receive 800,000 refugees this year. This was another snapshot of the migrant crisis in Europe and the burden many EU countries are facing over how to deal with the influx. For more on this, we reached Gyorgy Schopflin by phone in Brussels. He's a member of the European Parliament from Hungary. And I started by asking him about the best way to handle the surge of migrants into Hungary. He said, shutting down rail service was a temporary fix.

GYORGY SCHOPFLIN: As I understand it, it's basically that Austria has said they're not receiving people at this time, so please don't send any more. These people don't want to stay in Hungary. They want to move on to Germany.

SIEGEL: And just to be clear, you said that the Austrians have asked the Hungarians to stop rail service. Are you talking about a confidential communication or has that been a public request made?

SCHOPFLIN: As I understand it, it's fairly public. And they haven't stopped the trains, but only people with an EU passport are allowed to board.

SIEGEL: They want to be going to Germany, but at some point, isn't the European Union obliged to have a union-wide strategy as to how many refugees are going to which countries?

http://news.yahoo.com/eastern-germany-hotspot-attacks-against-refugees-064300104.html

quote:

IEastern Germany a hotspot for attacks against refugees

Small towns such as Heidenau and Freital have earned nationwide notoriety as neo-Nazis and angry residents have hurled abuse at people fleeing war and misery -- and rocks at police sent to protect those seeking a safe haven.

Arson attacks against refugee shelters, and swastikas scrawled on their walls, have brought back dark memories of xenophobic violence that flared at the time of Germany's reunification a quarter-century ago.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/09/03/image-of-drowned-syrian-toddler-aylan-kurdi-jolts-world-leaders/

quote:

Death of drowned Syrian toddler Aylan Kurdi jolts world leaders
Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban, whose country has become one of the focal points of the migrant influx, warned Thursday that settling the throngs of Muslim refugees had "explosive consequences for the whole of Europe" and endangered the continent's supposedly Christian identity.

It is truly appalling to me how some people are acting towards our fellow human beings. These are our neighbors, they are mothers, and fathers, and familes. The last comment I quoted really gets to me. What endangers christian identity is failing to act christian towards our neighbors in need.

Every single person on this planet is one bad day away from being a refugee, a migrant, an inmate, a homeless person. The volcano at yellow stone could go off, there could be a pandemic, whatever. It appalls me that we have failed to recognize or fellow person as people. Will it hurt the economy? Maybe, but we need to do it because of the kind of people we are meant to be. The kind of world we want to be a part of. Also the United States and Russia should certainly take some responsibility here as they are both fueling the conflict with money and equipment to advance appallingly selfish interests. They are not migrants and even if they were, nothing justifies this treatment.

# ¿ Sep 4, 2015 01:08

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 07:17

Mandy Thompson: Dec 26, 2014; by zen death robot

Speaking of Christianity, Matthew tells us that the Lord himself was a refugee. Also Hebrews 13:1-2 says ��show hospitality to strangers, for by doing that some have entertained angels�� and there are numerous instances of good people, prophets even, inspired by God who have gone through being a refugee. That boy on that beach is a child of God. And while he is in a better place, it is on our conscience, our responsibility to bear some of the burden of those less fortunate than us. If he wants Europe to stay Christian, he should act in a Christ like way.

# ¿ Sep 4, 2015 01:48

Mandy Thompson: Dec 26, 2014; by zen death robot

Canine Blues Arooo posted:

Letting people die, starve and rot in countries that are wartorn or fall victim to a disaster isn't cool at all, but I think it's worth acknowledging that it's not as easy as 'just letting refugees in'. By virtue of existing, everyone takes a toll on the land, the infrastructure, and the resources a given land has. Finding the room and resources for almost a million more people who are unfamiliar with your culture, your rules, your expectations -- this is hard to do, and expensive to do. If the last half a decade is any indicator, people seem to be less concerned about the economic impact and much more concerned about the cultural impact.

That is obviously a huge topic, but I really want an honest discussion without a purely humanitarian viewpoint, because while we should help our fellow man, it simply isn't that simple and saying, 'Well, it IS that simple' is pretty dishonest.

I really don't think cultural impact is a valid objection. Here in the US we have greatly benefited from the diversity immigrants have brought and extremists raising a fuss that the population is becoming more Hispanic are rightly dismissed as racist, when they are dismissed, sadly they aren't dismissed often enough. Cultures evolve and change all the time and the best way to defend a culture is to embody its best parts. Leave the nationalism in the dustbin of history. If the west truly embodies freedom, then let people be free. Trappings of Western culture are ubiquitous around the world from Kentucky Fried Chicken's in East Asia to movies with international audiences.

# ¿ Sep 4, 2015 04:19

Mandy Thompson: Dec 26, 2014; by zen death robot

Canine Blues Arooo posted:

Yes, the logistics of moving literally hundreds of thousands of people across the world is 'that simple'. Pack it up boys, we've solved it here!

Its going to be painful and inconvenient but far more painful is the pain these refugees experience. I would rather live in a world where we make sacrifices for our fellow human beings. Nations are an illusion, we are one people, one race, all children of the divine.

# ¿ Sep 4, 2015 04:24

Mandy Thompson: Dec 26, 2014; by zen death robot

Baron FU posted:

Shut the hell up. These things happen, especially in low income areas where extremism thrives. You are in no position to question how a working class/poor ethnic Swede feels or their experiences regarding islamic immigrants.

I'm tired of rich and intolerant people on this forum hating on the poor and working class.

I'm not hating on the working class, I am hating on Nazism and the narrative that refugees are any different from us

# ¿ Sep 6, 2015 03:33

Mandy Thompson: Dec 26, 2014; by zen death robot

lmaoboy1998 posted:

American foreign policy helped create the refugee crisis. Remind me why you shouldn't play a part in solving it?

Of course I've heard your answer, the ocean means you can't possibly take an interest in this particular Middle Eastern issue for 'logistical reasons'. Lmao.

I absolutely agree that both the US and Russia should be playing a huge role, taking on most of the refugees, helping them get to the united states or russia

# ¿ Sep 6, 2015 15:10

Mandy Thompson: Dec 26, 2014; by zen death robot

The best thing to do is to change the culture. Make it socially unacceptable to be an rear end to immigrants, don't force people to feel as though they are only safe in ethnic enclaves. Organize meet and greets, cross cultural events, celebrations of diversity, have culture festivals inviting people of those groups to show off their art, religion, and food. Work them in and be sure include them in your own traditions. Recognize that every society has a lot to learn from others and message that fact. Take opportunities to remind society that we are citizens of the world before we were citizens of this country.

# ¿ Sep 6, 2015 20:23

Mandy Thompson: Dec 26, 2014; by zen death robot

Arglebargle III posted:

OTOH not only are these solutions expensive, but there will be violence and crime associated with the refugee communities. There would be violence and crime in any area full of displaced people whatever their race, and to be frank Levant Arab culture is notorious for its toxic ideas of masculinity, rampant misogyny, and a weak sense of rule of law. Not lumping it in with Pashto or Gulf Arab culture which is inarguably worse in many respects but it's a reality. Acting like bending over backwards to be welcoming, lavishing money on model communities, and scrupulous political correctness will eliminate those problems is a mistake is the only salient point these blood-and-fatherland people make. Even with good policy, this is a humanitarian crisis that is going to leave everybody materially worse off than they were at least in the short term, because it is a disaster and requires resources to manage. Except for the people in states that close their borders.

So these arguments that "we can just do X Y and very-expensive Z and it will be better" are all very nice but this is best looked at as a disaster-response situation. There are going to be costs, and everybody's going to be worse off for it in the short term. Those costs whether they are first-order resource-distribution or second-order law order and assimilation costs are real and won't simply disappear in a blinding flash of liberal policy.

It is a fair point, I don't doubt that there will be some crime coming out of traumatized marginalized people. It will require patience, not allowing the entire group to be tarred with the same brush if a few knuckleheads start poo poo, and continued efforts to include people from those communities in societies while allowing them to also express their uniqueness. It shouldn't be that big a deal if their culture influences another. That is the sensation of ignorance fading away.

# ¿ Sep 6, 2015 21:43

Mandy Thompson: Dec 26, 2014; by zen death robot

Arglebargle III posted:

Huh?

Actually, I've always thought that if the goal is reducing human suffering, surely swift death is the most efficacious policy?

If something happened to your government or your society collapsed, would you feel it was fair for another government to kill you for the sake of not inconveniencing nationalistic jerks with authoritarian personalities?

# ¿ Sep 6, 2015 21:46

Mandy Thompson: Dec 26, 2014; by zen death robot

Unknown Dyne posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c4Rvz5stHE

This is basically neonazi propaganda meant to demonize people of color as savage rioters

Guess they have never seen white college kids after their team loses.

If you want barbarism, you need look no further than European and American actions in the middle east. These people are knocking over some cars. Europeans and Americans blow up cities, destroy entire economies, act as economic hitmen so that they can loot the resources of less powerful or less organized states. Western capitalism loves dictatorships because they are easy to work with and are good at imposing repugnant working conditions on people, and violent tactics against unions that western workers will no longer tolerate. Europe is the real predator.

Mandy Thompson fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Sep 7, 2015

# ¿ Sep 7, 2015 00:22

Mandy Thompson: Dec 26, 2014; by zen death robot

Arglebargle III posted:

It's a little bit amazing that some people on the left will leap to defend rape as long as it's committed by the right people.

huh? Where?

# ¿ Sep 7, 2015 04:30

Mandy Thompson: Dec 26, 2014; by zen death robot

I have heard it said that Islam needs to go through an enlightenment like Europe did. The truth is, that one is in progress but it is violent just like Europe's enlightenment was violent, sometimes imposed by dictators and sometimes imposed by mobs. Remember the French Revolution? Remember all the other wars? Liberal Muslims absolutely exist. LGBT Muslims and allies exist. And it greater numbers than you might realize. They abhor this violence. The abhor groups like ISIS that seem to be getting colossal amounts of money from somewhere. Early on it was from the US funding Syrian rebels, now its from human trafficking, oil, artifacts, and gems. Its not other terrorists buying those things. Its not always other Muslims manufacturing and selling them guns. There have got to be quite a few rich fucks out there who have enslaved domestic workers dusting their looted Roman vases, and they are either Western or do a lot of business with the west to get so rich.

What I do not like to see is Western powers sticking their dicks in the situation and "helping" for completely selfish reasons. It means that those liberal Muslims get painted as agents of America. And stop giving shady people money and being surprised when they do appalling things.

# ¿ Sep 7, 2015 12:12

Mandy Thompson: Dec 26, 2014; by zen death robot

OwlFancier posted:

Nige blames the problems with our healthcare service on HIV infected foreigners coming here on holiday and getting free operations while giving people AIDS.

I don't think there is anyone less tasteful than Nigel.

Entirely true but people will jump on the minority incidents and use them as fuel for the pre-existing conclusion that foreigners are evil.

As if Americans and Europeans never took things from Africa and the middle east that they weren't entitled to or gave indigenous populations diseases on purpose.

# ¿ Sep 9, 2015 05:05

Mandy Thompson: Dec 26, 2014; by zen death robot

amuayse posted:

We should fix those countries the refugees keep coming from instead of bringing them in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

We've been "fixing" them, that is the problem

# ¿ Sep 10, 2015 03:52

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 07:17

Mandy Thompson: Dec 26, 2014; by zen death robot

The Belgian posted:

A Belgian tv channel went to people who posted bad facebook comments about the refugees and bradcast their faces nationally along with their facebook messsages.

http://www.vier.be/karenendecoster/videos/het-allemaal-stront-elke-bootvluchteling-mag-verzuipen/1238119

Interesting that they holding people accountable for their words, still, what did they say? Is there a subtitled version

# ¿ Sep 19, 2015 20:53

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Refugee Crisis - a crisis of conscience