The Zoglin thread for Zoglin to come back to PLEASE

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > VEGETA > The Zoglin thread for Zoglin to come back to PLEASE

Twiddy: May 17, 2008; To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Paracelsus posted:

Either you don't have to register your decklist at this tournament and can effectively pre-sideboard, or that guy has a really broad toolbox and a lot of search.

Considering how they were describing his list, I'm guessing it's this, and so having her decklist was super helpful.

It's kind of funny that this comes up though because this has become a big thing (at least in Magic Pro Tour Tournaments). Pro players tend to operate in teams, and their teammates who either didn't qualify or finished their matches early go around and takes notes of the cards in other players decklists and generally submit it to a google doc for their team. Because of this, at least at the PT level, it's generally assumed that people know your decklist by round 2.

# ¿ Sep 18, 2015 04:22

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 10:25

Twiddy: May 17, 2008; To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Xelkelvos posted:

Zoglin should put these on a site like batoto where everyone can see them and enjoy Zoglin's wonderful work, rather than just hoarding it to ourselves.

Allow me to retort; gently caress other people, VEGETA supremacy.

# ¿ Sep 21, 2015 03:35

Twiddy: May 17, 2008; To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Man she is playing the permissionest permission to ever permission.

Gyra_Solune posted:

i like the core of the story that is following a nice person having to be a relentless jerk because of circumstances. she hates it, everyone hates it, except her boyfriend who is now fantasizing about her brutally stepping on his face, but she has to do it because her dad is thousands of dollars in debt

I'm also not sure how I feel about how this point because it's definitely how the game is being presented but from the perspective of someone who plays these games somewhat seriously, she's not actually doing anything assholish at all. She's playing a game, and using a deck and a strategy to play that game. Her deck and strategy is slow as all hell, but that doesn't make anything she's doing actually malicious. It's a very scrub tier mentality from everyone around her that her strategy and way of playing is nasty and bad, which makes sense because they're all bad scrubs who are bad at the game.

Basically (if my memory is serving me right of this very short comic), notice the difference in perspective that the peanut gallery has to her playing and her actual opponents.

# ¿ Oct 20, 2015 20:31

Twiddy: May 17, 2008; To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Lemon Curdistan posted:

No, she's playing assholish decks that are designed to win by making GBS threads all over her opponent's ability to do anything (which is not in any way fun to be on the receiving end of), and on top of that she's just stone-faced and looks miserable throughout the entire game.

Oh no she's using her deck designed to shut down opponents as it's meant to be used, she's being a lovely person.

I'm honestly not gonna dignify this any further, this is just a hilarious mentality. I play both Netrunner and MtG, it's not a problem that's a difference between mindsets of both communities, it's bad players applying moral ethics to legitimate play styles because they're bad.

# ¿ Oct 20, 2015 22:07

Twiddy: May 17, 2008; To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Like if we want to get into discussions about lovely, scummy behavior that exists in card games (that I will admit that I see a lot more of in MtG than in Netrunner) we can talk about misleading the other player like the infamous, "I use Profane Command to give fear to all my legal targets" implying that the player gave Chameleon Colossus fear so that the other player would misplay. THAT'S scummy and is manipulating information around the actual gameplay in order to obfuscate the game state and create a bad feeling (also technically within the rules of the game, because I guess WotC doesn't want to go down the road of enforcing moral behavior, or even trying to set that standard of morality around it).

Choosing to play a permission deck, playing it well, and being somewhat stone-faced about it is nothing like that.

# ¿ Oct 20, 2015 22:14

Twiddy: May 17, 2008; To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Yasser Arafatwa posted:

Yeah I don't think her deck itself is scummy or her attitude or w/e in our world where it's literally just a childrens game but it makes more sense in the context of the established world

She's p much playing a heels deck and would be the antagonist in the typical sports genre

Actually the best current analogue I can think of for this deck might be Modern Grixis Control before that became a major player in the meta or Modern Lantern Control, which would make her the people's hero.

Player psychology can be really weird sometimes.

# ¿ Oct 20, 2015 22:52

Twiddy: May 17, 2008; To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Pavlov posted:

People like MTG style games because it lets them use a bunch of cool monsters and spells. Permission/Control is the strategy of not not letting people use their monsters and spells. It's not too hard to see why a lot of people don't like it. I don't care too much for MTG, but when I played, I tried to play like protagonist girl, because if I'm not going to have fun, no one is.

Oh yeah players in real life also get mad at control strategies all the time. That doesn't make their gripes legitimate. Again, it's fairly notable that it's the peanut gallery that are the ones going "ugh what a nasty strategy what a nasty person" and the successful players are going "I didn't think that deck was good in this meta, odd choice."

It's a difference in mentality that ends up making the difference between a successful and unsuccessful player. With that let's go back and look at the original post I quoted:

Gyra_Solune posted:

i like the core of the story that is following a nice person having to be a relentless jerk because of circumstances. she hates it, everyone hates it, except her boyfriend who is now fantasizing about her brutally stepping on his face, but she has to do it because her dad is thousands of dollars in debt

She isn't being a relentless jerk, that is the general perception of the unwashed masses upon her play style, which she agonizes over because she plays a lot of new/low level players (kids, bad classmates) and she has complex issues relating to the strategy because of her mom. Her feelings toward herself are not indicative of what she should be feeling at all, especially when she's playing against professionals.

EDIT: That said I guess calling out that point as wrong isn't fair, since she does do some things that are quite cold (taking all her crush' pro point things is kinda low out of context).

Twiddy fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Oct 21, 2015

# ¿ Oct 21, 2015 00:11

Twiddy: May 17, 2008; To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Xelkelvos posted:

The best way is Midrange. Enough firepower to make creatures unignorable, enough removal to deny them a board.

The only thing more infuriating than Permission control is Permission control with Land destruction.

But if you're playing midrange then you're playing whatever broken creature is in the format (Tarmogoyf, Thragtusk, Siege Rhino) and you're just a pay2win player.

Basically the only consistent line between all the most hated decks throughout history is that they were the best deck.

# ¿ Oct 21, 2015 04:41

Twiddy: May 17, 2008; To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Yes_Cantaloupe posted:

The main thing is that she feels like she's being a relentless jerk. That's what matters for the story's purpose.

I mean, yes and no. It's what's central to her character and how she feels about herself, but ignoring the professional viewpoint isn't gonna help people understand the story. That obviously depends on where the story goes, but I doubt it's gonna be about her descent into evil via playing control or about her becoming saved from her assholish control playing nature. One thing she's probably going to come to grips with in the story (in one form or another) is that there's nothing wrong with playing well and playing permission, and that's because there's nothing wrong with it in the real world either.

Basically, the post I quoted framed it as a story where a good girl is doing bad things because of necessity, which while partially true (again, all of a sudden stealing all her not-boyfriends pro points out of nowhere), but the permission playing interacts with that in an interesting way because it has a certain perception of being bad, but is really just another way to play the game.

# ¿ Oct 21, 2015 05:17

Twiddy: May 17, 2008; To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Gyra_Solune posted:

you're going to love the next opponent in wizard's soul then

i fear for the flood of cat puns to come

Ruh roh. I look forward to how many words I'm gonna have to eat as the comic goes on.

# ¿ Oct 21, 2015 05:33

Twiddy: May 17, 2008; To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

OneDeadman posted:

Really the thing bothering me is that Manaka is living the dream where a Transformative sideboard isn't a terrible gimmick.

So you haven't been around for the last year or three where Twin decks tend to sideboard from a combo deck to a control shell?

Transformative sideboards tend to be common for a certain definition of what "transformative" means, especially when doing a minor step like going from permission to a different type of control. Not sure what she's pulling to go to a mill deck though.

# ¿ Oct 22, 2015 06:56

Twiddy: May 17, 2008; To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Know what hasn't been updated at all for months and months? Wizard's Soul. I want some more cardboard crack sometime.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2016 05:57

Twiddy: May 17, 2008; To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Honestly I'm fine with Zoglin just giving us the most accurate F/SN manga adaptation.

# ¿ Apr 28, 2016 20:58

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 10:25

Twiddy: May 17, 2008; To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

It's worth noting that if they're following Magic style rules, the name of the card is its identity. All cards with the same name are treated as the same card in official rules. That said, the text of a card can change due to a reprint and difference in how text is worded or because of errata. In tournaments, you'll frequently find people using older versions of the same card that has slightly different wording than the most recent copy.

All that said, this is probably just a slight retcon or error.

# ¿ Apr 30, 2016 05:34

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > VEGETA > The Zoglin thread for Zoglin to come back to PLEASE