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blowfish posted:Identity politics advocates have an unfortunate tendency to emphasise style over substance. In addition, incessant shouting about ~my own/favourite identity category~'s issues instead of a more general demand to stop making a big deal out of peoples' identity is short sighted and smacks of narcissism. Otoh "incessant shouting about ~my own/favourite identity category~'s issues" is responsible for pretty much every advancement of minority rights in history and general demands to stop making a big deal of identity have accomplished gently caress all. Although, to be fair, the latter tactic is mostly used by people fighting against minority rights
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Sep 19, 2015 15:51
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SedanChair posted:Does anyone want to see a square expanse of my flesh, would that be helpful Nah, your hands would be fine.
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Sep 19, 2015 16:05
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It's the internet, if it's not a dick pic it doesn't count.computer parts posted:"Class revolution" was conceptualized in an environment of white exclusivity, if not outright white supremacy. As such, it was blind to biases that only revealed themselves as more diverse people entered the movement.
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Sep 19, 2015 16:05
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Whining about identity politics is a sideshow Everyone has known Some rear end in a top hat with their Pet Cause, it turns out being An rear end in a top hat With A Pet Cause is the real issue making GBS threads up the day regardless of if that issue is queer rights, saving the whales or PS4 vs. XBone
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Sep 19, 2015 16:07
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Main Paineframe posted:Read it more carefully. The article says that that argument was used, but pointed to supposed equality between white and black workers in unions in order to disprove the argument, mostly because the article thinks history started in 1961. The article is pretty specifically referring to the history of the concept of privilege, not the history of class struggle. You are bad at reading.
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Sep 19, 2015 16:07
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computer parts posted:"Class revolution" was conceptualized in an environment of white exclusivity, if not outright white supremacy. As such, it was blind to biases that only revealed themselves as more diverse people entered the movement. So Marx and the Russians were white? Jews and Slavs are white? Wtf?
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Sep 19, 2015 22:59
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Well the Russians were white and red but yes kinda 
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Sep 19, 2015 23:10
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PerpetualSelf posted:So Marx and the Russians were white? Whiteness isn't some absolute. Compared to the rest of the world, Slavs and Ashenkazim/Sephardim are white (and Germans have always been white). Within whiteness, they're generally relegated to being semiwhite. What, did you expect racism to make sense?
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Sep 19, 2015 23:19
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PerpetualSelf posted:So Marx and the Russians were white? You talk about the insanities of racism like someone who has never actually experienced it.
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Sep 19, 2015 23:29
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Bolsjewism
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Sep 19, 2015 23:35
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You're white so long as you are on the side which isn't getting lynched for being black. Least that's broadly how it works I think?
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Sep 19, 2015 23:59
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OwlFancier posted:You're white so long as you are on the side which isn't getting lynched for being black. Who is the new troublemaker when all the blacks have been lynched?
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Sep 20, 2015 00:09
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McDowell posted:Who is the new troublemaker when all the blacks have been lynched? I think at that point you start subdividing the whites more.
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Sep 20, 2015 00:13
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PerpetualSelf posted:It lays out a very convincing argument that the development of these concepts were created as a means to split radical americans and discourage the possibility of radical revolution throughout the world. These concepts were created hundreds of years ago by people who were also generally anarchists and socialists. Since then all sorts of people have found them relevant, but many have a leftist pedigree. Such people as Emma Goldstone, Shulamith Firestone, Martin Luther King, Paul Robeson, and Mark Ashton (founder of Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners) did not have to choose between economic radicalism and "identity politics", and neither do we. There are plenty of liberals that also support equality, but we can feel free to listen to any good ideas they have and disregard the rest. Just as we would when reading an old Marxist who thinks homosexuality is bourgeois decadence. quote:With the election of Jeremy Corbyn, possibly the first proper leftist leader of the 21st century in the developed world, we have seen him constantly attacked using identity politics He was attacked by liberals using any methods available to them. His platform is exceedingly amenable to people with an interest in resolving issues for minorities, women and LGBT people. I am more than satisfied with what he has to offer on that front, as are the rest of the people in the UKMT who are super interested in those matters. quote:I'm starting to believe that this article is 100% true. And racial and gender and LGBT policies should be sidelined in favor of full on revolutionary class strife politics. OK, let's put aside all our problems in return for supporting a movement that is unfashionable for reasons having nothing to do with "identity politics". Or we could just continue to support politicians like Corbyn, who don't force us to make that sacrifice, and grassroots groups who find the causes inextricable. Your argument is decades old and has been debunked time and again. As an aside, I hate this sneering phrase "identity politics", which seems to suggest if people stop identifying as women or black then all their problems will go away. I personally don't even identify as a woman and that hasn't stopped me experiencing domestic violence, sexual harassment, and many other indignities that the assailants verbally confirmed were being carried out due to my biology.
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Sep 20, 2015 00:47
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SlipUp posted:The article is pretty specifically referring to the history of the concept of privilege, not the history of class struggle. You are bad at reading. It's talking about the history of privilege theory, as conceptualized and argued by socialist groups beginning in the 60s. Privilege itself is something it barely talks about, except to claim that privilege theory was a ridiculous idea because black workers had full equality by the 60s and therefore the only reason the theory survived was because capitalists co-opted it.
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Sep 20, 2015 02:21
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rudatron posted:The people conceptualizing class revolution were keenly aware of the nature of race and its use to create an artificial hierarchy, to claim they were blind is just ignorance on your part. "Class Revolution" is being used as a shorthand for leftist activities. If you can prove the average group trooper was keenly aware and rejected racism, I'd be happy to see it. PerpetualSelf posted:So Marx and the Russians were white? Today they absolutely are. Even back then they were still better than being Black (or whatever).
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Sep 20, 2015 02:26
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if you are a "socialist" who opposes identity politics openly in the name of marxism/anarchism you need to focus on organizing towards winning a fair wage from the CIA and COINTELPRO because you're basically doing all their work for them
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Sep 20, 2015 03:33
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Augustus posted:Everyone has known Some rear end in a top hat with their Pet Cause, it turns out being An rear end in a top hat With A Pet Cause is the real issue making GBS threads up the day regardless of if that issue is queer rights, saving the whales or PS4 vs. XBone computer parts posted:"Class Revolution" is being used as a shorthand for leftist activities. If you can prove the average group trooper was keenly aware and rejected racism, I'd be happy to see it. The radicals had a better track record than the reformers, so don't throw out trash about it being 'blind'. That's pure ignorance. rudatron fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Sep 20, 2015 |
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Sep 20, 2015 03:49
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OwlFancier posted:You're white so long as you are on the side which isn't getting lynched for being black. Yeah, basically. It's an "in-group" sort of based on ethnicity that's expanded its definition to bolster its numbers. Irish people used to not be "white". Italians and Eastern Europeans used to not be "white". All inasmuch as they weren't allowed in the in-group and exploited by such. C'mon man if you're gonna talk about identity politics you should at least know the basics before you start. Orange Fluffy Sheep fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Sep 20, 2015 |
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Sep 20, 2015 03:59
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rudatron posted:You claimed that 'class revolution' was conceptualized in an environment of white supremacy Actually, I said white exclusivity. The difference being you can be "not racist" (and I don't mean those as scare quotes) but still blind to actual minority concerns.
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Sep 20, 2015 04:00
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Jagchosis posted:There's no war but class war ayy lmao Agreed.
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Sep 20, 2015 04:32
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I don't totally agree with OP, but I have had similar thoughts myself. If you consider that A) White Privilege gives the average white person greater access to societal resources. and B)Those resources are broadly finite (there are only so many desirable homes, only so many jobs, etc) I don't see any way how "dismantling white supremacy" won't make the average white persons life tangibly worse. Most openly, virulently racist white people tend to be poorer in my experience. The common explanation for this is usually that when your life sucks you hang on to anything that can give you self-worth, which I think is probably true. But I also think that it's because when you have almost nothing, the matieral advantages of whiteness matter much more to you. They have much more to lose if White Privilege goes away. Given that whites still constitute the majority of the US, as well as the largest number of people in poverty in absolute numbers, I don't think dismantling white supremacy is really possible under the current economic conditions, as it would require most of the population to become aware of how white privilege benefits them, and to then act against their own economic self interest by attempting to demolish it. I'm usually pretty moderate by D&D standards, but I really don't see any way to meaningfully challenge that kind of system in a permanent way under capitalism.
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Sep 20, 2015 04:58
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Sep 20, 2015 05:02
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computer parts posted:Actually, I said white exclusivity. The difference being you can be "not racist" (and I don't mean those as scare quotes) but still blind to actual minority concerns. Yeah this is an important point. Just a general "stop making a big deal about identities" message isn't going to be effective when people are quietly noticing identities and e.g. paying some identities less for the same job, and most people aren't aware that it's happening. Just socialism on its own isn't a solution to this. Unless you reach the mythical post-communist era and the state has withered away completely, there are still going to be hierarchies and people are still going to be quietly excluded from them if everyone is discouraged from talking about issues that affect people of their identity.
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Sep 20, 2015 05:05
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Effectronica posted:Whiteness isn't some absolute. Compared to the rest of the world, Slavs and Ashenkazim/Sephardim are white (and Germans have always been white). Within whiteness, they're generally relegated to being semiwhite. What, did you expect racism to make sense?
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Sep 20, 2015 06:02
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Racialization is necessary to suppress labor, it continues so long as that need to suppress labor exists. The only way it ends is through the victory of the workers, rendering that necessity void. Ideology does not spring from the ground full formed, it is created and guided in execution by actual economic reality. This is the view of the conceptualizers of 'class revolution'. They were not blind to minority concerns, they in fact had a rigorous view of the origins and perpetuation of racism. Something that is mysteriously missing from contemporary anti-racism, replaced by endless searching, like a treasure hunter, for the secret racist cachets of the most pointless poo poo (ie- focus on taxonomic knowledge for prestige purposes). The limits of anti-racism posted:Antiracism is a favorite concept on the American left these days. Of course, all good sorts want to be against racism, but what does the word mean exactly? rudatron fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Sep 20, 2015 |
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Sep 20, 2015 06:43
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A Buttery Pastry posted:If we go by the writings of eminent Anglo-Saxons such as Benjamin Franklin, Germans weren't always white. The Saxons of Hannover were at that point, but not Germans as a whole. Neither were the Swedes for that matter, they too being "swarthy". On the other hand, this never reached the level of racialization for other "white ethnics". Anti-Catholicism quickly supplanted those racial sentiments and Protestants quickly became integrated.
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Sep 20, 2015 14:24
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Effectronica posted:On the other hand, this never reached the level of racialization for other "white ethnics". Anti-Catholicism quickly supplanted those racial sentiments and Protestants quickly became integrated.
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Sep 20, 2015 15:38
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Not more integrated than WWI being able to turn German Americans (and other non-British Northern Europeans) into a potential fifth column that had better assimilate to prove its loyalty. That's really the key difference - they were given the option to assimilate. Mexican Americans tried the same thing around the same time period and were rejected.
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Sep 20, 2015 16:09
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computer parts posted:That's really the key difference - they were given the option to assimilate. Mexican Americans tried the same thing around the same time period and were rejected. And deported en masse over decades, citizens and aliens alike.
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Sep 20, 2015 16:32
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computer parts posted:That's really the key difference - they were given the option to assimilate. Mexican Americans tried the same thing around the same time period and were rejected.
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Sep 20, 2015 16:39
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A Buttery Pastry posted:"Given the option to assimilate" in this case meaning "their ethnicity was deemed unwanted, and suppressed until it ceased to be". I suppose it is technically a step up in terms of being recognized as white, but it certainly wasn't on equal footing with Anglo-Americans. It is most definitely a step up since as mentioned above they weren't deported en masse for being German. And Germans weren't the only European turned "white" ancestry. Italians and Greeks are another example and those guys have retained their ethnicity. Actually the Irish have too for a large part of them so really it's being German that's the historical oddity among assimilation in the US.
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Sep 20, 2015 17:07
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computer parts posted:It is most definitely a step up since as mentioned above they weren't deported en masse for being German.
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Sep 20, 2015 17:19
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Germans and other Northern Europeans. Not sure I would use the term "historical oddity" to describe forced assimilation though. There's a pretty strong Scandinavian connection around the Western Great Lakes- Dakotas region iirc.
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Sep 20, 2015 17:30
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Not more integrated than WWI being able to turn German Americans (and other non-British Northern Europeans) into a potential fifth column that had better assimilate to prove its loyalty. However, that was on national-ethnic, not racialized grounds. German-Americans who had immigrated to the USA decades prior did not receive this suspicion, and the very option of assimilation proves that "German" wasn't a racial identity in the 1910s. Contrasting this, assimilation was never an option for Chinese and Indian immigrants, and Japanese-Americans were interned regardless of whether they were immigrants or not.
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Sep 20, 2015 18:35
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Weldon Pemberton posted:OK, let's put aside all our problems in return for supporting a movement that is unfashionable for reasons having nothing to do with "identity politics". Or we could just continue to support politicians like Corbyn, who don't force us to make that sacrifice, and grassroots groups who find the causes inextricable. Your argument is decades old and has been debunked time and again. I give zero motherfucking gently caress fucks about whether or not it is fashionable. The major issue with the left is they are too reasonable. Too afraid to get outraged about the things they should be outraged about : workers rights. Too afraid to look crazy. That makes them fail. They aren't taken seriously. They look like a bunch of latte sipping liberals. Not the people that are going to forment working class revolution. We need strong figureheads that remind people of dictators. They must make clear what they really think and not water it down. And they must not mince words. They must call the corporate whores corporate whores. They should say the world would be better off if the bankers were all dead. They should literally call for the heads of certain people. They should be passionate and over the top. They should scare the establishment to it's very core. They should make the pasty faced lilly white cowardly inhuman banker scum piss and poo poo in their pants. Every single banker, rich white gently caress, and capitalist should be wearing depends. They must set up workers communes in the inner cities and our own police, they must then use these communes to cause incursions in to the white gated communities and banks and forcibly take from them everything they own. We need out and out civil war between the classes. We need courts by the people to bring up every rich person and banish them from society forcing them to walk out onto a frozen lake in the middle of winter. I don't want to win a election. Democracy never has worked and it is overrated. What we need is a Dictatorship by the working class . We need to stop Capitalism in it's home. In it's biggest safe space. We stomp on the ruling illuminati class and it will tumble everywhere. This is the only really way that socialism can rise. Going to some poo poo poor country and implementing it will never loving work. The same thing that has happened for millions of years will continue. It must happen here for it to happen everywhere.
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Sep 20, 2015 19:07
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Don't cut yourself on all that edgy. 
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Sep 20, 2015 19:12
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TomViolence posted:Don't cut yourself on all that edgy. I'll cut you you loving capitalist worshipping swine shitlord. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 20, 2015 19:16
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PerpetualSelf posted:I give zero motherfucking gently caress fucks about whether or not it is fashionable. This Post Turned Me Neoliberal
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Sep 20, 2015 19:18
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TomViolence posted:Don't cut yourself on all that edgy. He's a troll, get the Ax.
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Sep 20, 2015 19:18
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