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PT6A posted:This has always been my understanding too, but I'm curious if there are any groups that require more than that (such as saying the shahada in front of the community or an imam... theoretically, that shouldn't be an issue. One specific issue that I've always been curious about is: for immigration purposes, and for visiting Mecca and Medina, how does Saudi Arabia judge one's muslimness? Is it just a matter of declaring that you're a Muslim, or do they want a reference from an imam or something like that?  https://saudiembassy.net/services/hajj_requirements.aspx Edit: A NOTARIZED letter from the necessary male relative. For fucks sake. Tendai fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Sep 27, 2015 |
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Sep 27, 2015 07:30
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Tendai posted:I'm honestly not sure of that. I can't think of any that just out and out require it but there may be some. As for the "Are You Muslim Enough, Bro?" game, this is what the Saudi embassy says: "If the applicant has converted to Islam, an Islamic certificate must be presented; this needs to be notarized by an Islamic Center." I'm not sure how they know that, I know there's an application but I haven't checked it out, it may ask for history. Or they might just go by country. And then if you're a woman under 45 you can't go without a male guardian and even if you are over 45 you can only go in a group and with permission from the necessary male relative because if we just let the women go willy-nilly on religious pilgrimages alone they'll start having sex all over the place In your opinion, do you feel like "Saudi Arabia is loving crazy" is a sufficient excuse to not do the Hajj? Obviously it's a matter of personal conscience, but given the disasters that have happened this year, and in other years, and the fact that Saudi Arabia observes a particularly hard-line version of Islam as compared to many of the Muslims in the rest of the world, I think I'd still have reservations about going there even if I were an observant Muslim. On a similar note, the wording of the regulation you quoted seems to imply that someone born Muslim (I suppose born to at least one Muslim parent) would automatically be considered Muslim. Religiously speaking, is it considered that a child born to a Muslim parent is Muslim, regardless of whether they have confessed the shahadah upon becoming old/mature enough to understand what it means? In general, how is the Qu'ranic statement that there should be no compulsion in religion reconciled with the extremely dim view many Muslims, and many Muslim nations, take on the subject of apostasy?
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Sep 27, 2015 07:42
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PT6A posted:In your opinion, do you feel like "Saudi Arabia is loving crazy" is a sufficient excuse to not do the Hajj? Obviously it's a matter of personal conscience, but given the disasters that have happened this year, and in other years, and the fact that Saudi Arabia observes a particularly hard-line version of Islam as compared to many of the Muslims in the rest of the world, I think I'd still have reservations about going there even if I were an observant Muslim. I actually am not sure if there's any kind of automatic lineage. Like I believe in Judaism anyone born of a Jewish mother is automatically considered a Jew by most groups? The general consensus that I'm seeing online seems to be "either you say the Shahada or you're raised in it in which case you'll have said the Shahada multiple times anyhow." It reconciles for me in the way that it says; there should be no compulsion. If someone comes to Islam it should be of their own free will, and people who try to ignore that make me a mix of angry and sad, I don't think there's a good one-word way to describe it. As much as I get angry about what groups like ISIS and ultra-conservatives do, I'm sad in the same amount because what they do colors all of us and takes something that I consider to be an integral part of my life and shits on it. Tendai fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Sep 27, 2015 |
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Sep 27, 2015 07:52
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Related to the Hajj, as I understand it wahhabism doesn't consider Shias to be True Muslims. Why then are they allowed into Mecca?
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Sep 27, 2015 17:22
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Per posted:Related to the Hajj, as I understand it wahhabism doesn't consider Shias to be True Muslims. Why then are they allowed into Mecca?
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Sep 27, 2015 17:41
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Let's talk about Rumi, since in the course of going through some books today I stumbled across some of the translations I have and remembered why he drew me into studying Sufism in the first place. Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi (Also translated as Jellaludin and about fifty other ways, the Rumi is the important part) was a 13th century Islamic scholar/poet/mystic/jurist/Sufi. He's known primarily for two things: Being the founder of the Mevlevi Sufi order (the whirling dervishes) and writing poetry. He started out as a scholar/jurist but when he met the dervish Shams-e Tabrizi, he embraced a more ascetic, mystical search. Shams was killed four or five years after they met, possibly by Rumi's own son, and Rumi grieved intensely. From that came the Diwan-e Shams-e Tabrizi, one of if not the most famous books of Islamic poetry. Rumi himself died about thirty years after, give or take five years. His poetry and writings have influenced not just Mevlevi but Sufi thought as a whole in parts, particularly his works that touch on the concept of tawhid. --- A brief explanation break: Tawhid is hard to explain but it's kind of monotheism+++ and the single nature of Allah. Similar to the Jewish concept of Yahweh and Christian Unitarianism. But it implies sort of more than that in a way; Allah is an absolute in everything that exists or doesn't exist. In Sufism tawhid encompasses the search for purification and unity, it ties into what I mentioned previously about ihsan and batin/zaher. --- Rumi's poetry is overwhelmingly about his attempt to reconnect with Allah on a deep level and they are often, simply, love poetry. As are his poems focused on Shams. The following are translated by Coleman Barks: quote:Don't go anywhere without me. quote:A moment of happiness, And finally, a line that is particularly pointed: quote:If you're not building rooms where wisdom can be freely spoken, you're building a prison. Tendai fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Sep 27, 2015 |
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Sep 27, 2015 18:35
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Have you ever watched the documentary Mystic Iran? I used it for a few years when I was teaching a Mythology/Religion class and my students (high school) really enjoyed it. Even now I like to put it on because of the great soundtrack and the narrator's voice (Aryana Farshad). She weaves in a lot of Rumi and it's beautiful. One of my favorites: “If you could get rid of yourself just once, The secret of secrets would open to you. The face of the unknown, Hidden beyond the universe Would appear on the Mirror of your perception.” A few of my Muslim students wanted to make it clear to everyone that what was in the film was not true Islam, and that always sparked up a new conversation.
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Sep 27, 2015 23:25
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I haven't seen that but now I'm going to track it down so thank you!
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Sep 28, 2015 04:58
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Tendai posted:I honestly have no idea. Possibly because of political outcry if they didn't from other Muslims, or something like that? I'm really not sure. My buddy who has been on Hajj twice says the whole experience is heavily ritualized, so doctrinal differences don't really matter. It's more of a beautiful coming together of Muslims from all over the world. Plus, walking through the desert is loving brutal and it takes a particular kind of rear end in a top hat to start a fight when they are that exhausted.
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Sep 28, 2015 08:31
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This is a great thread, thanks for all the answers! How much is actually known about Mohammed and his personal views? If he was alive today, what would he think about the modern state of Islam in the world? What was early Islam like? Were there any major changes, as it grew in size and influence? (like Christianity turning from an apolitical religion for women, slaves and the poor to an opulent state religion)
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Sep 28, 2015 09:41
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Shbobdb posted:My buddy who has been on Hajj twice says the whole experience is heavily ritualized, so doctrinal differences don't really matter. It's more of a beautiful coming together of Muslims from all over the world. Plus, walking through the desert is loving brutal and it takes a particular kind of rear end in a top hat to start a fight when they are that exhausted. I get that part, I'm just wondering why the Saudi state lets them into Mecca/Medina in the first place. I mean, typically they don't want non-Muslims there, and if the Wahhabi clerics say Shias aren't muslims...
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Sep 28, 2015 14:12
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Per posted:I get that part, I'm just wondering why the Saudi state lets them into Mecca/Medina in the first place. I mean, typically they don't want non-Muslims there, and if the Wahhabi clerics say Shias aren't muslims... Shia Muslims make up about 40% of the population. You don't tell a group that size that they can't obey a pivotal fard without generating inconvenient amounts of instability. I don't pretend to understand the interplay between the Wahabis and the House of Saud, but I imagine the royal family has enough pull to stop the clerics from making their lives difficult by doing something so drastic.
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Sep 28, 2015 14:42
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Per posted:I get that part, I'm just wondering why the Saudi state lets them into Mecca/Medina in the first place. I mean, typically they don't want non-Muslims there, and if the Wahhabi clerics say Shias aren't muslims... Shbobdb posted:It's more of a beautiful coming together of Muslims from all over the world. Plus, walking through the desert is loving brutal and it takes a particular kind of rear end in a top hat to start a fight when they are that exhausted. waitwhatno posted:This is a great thread, thanks for all the answers! Well, "how much is known" depends on who you listen to. Historically-speaking there are some basics that Muslim and non-Muslim historians tend to agree on, like the details of his life and things like that. As for his personal views, that's where the hadith and sunna come in. And there are enough of both of them that if you look at them as a whole, they'll contradict each other and you can kind of pick and choose. The earliest biography of him was written around 800 CE, and the general feeling that I'm seeing among historians is that books like it are generally pretty decent for historical detail but when it gets religious... depends on who's writing it. He's only mentioned four or so times in the Qur'an but it is not a narrative history in nearly the same way that the Bible is so... So the answer is no one really knows, but most sects and schools of thought think they know and what they think depends on which hadith they view as legitimate. I can't even really say what I personally think of him because my religion does not in any way cancel out my history background so I'm not going to base that poo poo on stories that often have a VERY clear motive in presenting what they think is The Right Kind of Islam. Religiously I've always seen him as someone exceedingly human; there is nothing divine about Muhammad. In the hadith, even if I don't pay much mind to them, it's clear that he's a person and not a super-being -- he laughs with his wives, he gets mad at them, he gets irritated at his followers, he loves his cat. One of my favorite examples of this is when he is first receiving revelations and he runs to his first wife, Khadija, who was older than him and more or less supporting him (she is the example of an independent, strong Muslim woman) freaking the gently caress out like I imagine anyone would. She covers him with a blanket and basically tells him "hey, it's gonna be okay" and is generally an incredibly strong, supportive figure. It just, to me, illustrates the humanity of Muhammad. He was loving terrified so he ran to his wife. It's the most basically human thing to me. Khadija is actually an interesting figure in a lot of ways. She ran her own trading company and was a successful woman in her own right, and when they got married it was her who proposed and not him. Muhammad didn't marry any other wives until after Khadija died, they had been married for about 25 years. She was really the lynchpin of early Islam; she ransomed early Muslims from other groups, fed the community and was all-around a pretty incredible woman. So when extremists scream about women needing to be in the home... yeah. The first Muslim woman was an independent, intelligent businesswoman who Muhammad respected deeply so shut the gently caress up. The last question you have is a pretty big topic so I'll probably just cover the basics. The history of early Islam is really pretty fascinating even to someone like me, whose historical studies background is in Russia and North Korea. Muhammad's revelations came in the last 20 years or so of his life so this wasn't a birth-to-death thing. Early Muslims did not have an easy time, you might have seen the Hijra mentioned. That's the journey Muhammad and the early Muslims made to get away from Mecca (which was not Muslim-controlled) where they were in mortal danger. They traveled to Medina, which is another holy site in Islam for that reason. Medina is kind of where Islam uhhh... formalized. Things got set down. Probably because they had a moment to relax because no one was trying to kill them. Again, here is another way where the extremists gently caress it up (in my opinion). The first multi-religious Islamic state was set up in Medina and had a constitution that explicitly included them all in foreign policy and other government. Copying from Wikipedia, these are the specific rights it guarantees non-Muslims: quote:The security of God is equal for all groups. In terms of other reforms, I know it made some changes in slavery (made it less harsh and also made it more difficult for a non-slave to become a slave), and a lot of them for women (how much is debated, but I haven't found a historian who simply denies it yet), and children. Women really benefited in inheritance law and children, it's interesting, benefited from the rejection of what early Muslims saw as the Judeo-Christian idea that they're the property of their father. When it was founded, Islam was a remarkably progressive philosophy, kind of like how early Christianity was with its acceptance of "dirty" people like prostitutes and slaves. Christianity has been rather better, as a whole, at adapting to the modern world however, which is probably as much political and historical as anything else. I don't think you can ever study religion without studying actual, un-biased history or you're just getting half the story. I don't know if I've answered enough or if I've touched on what you're interested in -- early Islam and reforms are a pretty huge topic and I am not in any way a scholar of Muslim history. If there's something you wanted to know about that I missed just let me know! EDIT flakeloaf posted:Shia Muslims make up about 40% of the population. You don't tell a group that size that they can't obey a pivotal fard without generating inconvenient amounts of instability. I don't pretend to understand the interplay between the Wahabis and the House of Saud, but I imagine the royal family has enough pull to stop the clerics from making their lives difficult by doing something so drastic. Tendai fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 15:04
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Tendai posted:In terms of other reforms, I know it made some changes in slavery (made it less harsh and also made it more difficult for a non-slave to become a slave), and a lot of them for women (how much is debated, but I haven't found a historian who simply denies it yet), and children. Women really benefited in inheritance law and children, it's interesting, benefited from the rejection of what early Muslims saw as the Judeo-Christian idea that they're the property of their father. When it was founded, Islam was a remarkably progressive philosophy, kind of like how early Christianity was with its acceptance of "dirty" people like prostitutes and slaves. Christianity has been rather better, as a whole, at adapting to the modern world however, which is probably as much political and historical as anything else. I don't think you can ever study religion without studying actual, un-biased history or you're just getting half the story. They've also had a bit of a longer run-up. When it was Islam's age, Christianity could be kind of a dick. It's also easier to be progressive when you're wealthy; a lot of impoverished people take their faith very seriously because it's all they have. That's not strictly a Muslim phenomenon of course, but at this particular point in history that's where a lot of the noise is coming from. flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 15:37
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That is true. Add that to the history of the Middle East and you do get a fairly explosive (ha) result.
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Sep 28, 2015 15:44
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What's your opinion on the "72 virgins" thing? Do you think it's an accurate translation, or do you hold the view that it's supposed to be read as "72 pure people" or "72 of a particular kind of grape" as some scholars believe?* *hooray for foreign language homophones and figures of speech 
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Sep 28, 2015 22:33
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Flagrant Abuse posted:What's your opinion on the "72 virgins" thing? Do you think it's an accurate translation, or do you hold the view that it's supposed to be read as "72 pure people" or "72 of a particular kind of grape" as some scholars believe?* My personal take on it is that it's an effort to put the idea of Paradise into a way people of that time could understand. Not just one woman to gently caress (or grape to eat or pure person to hang out with) but a fuckton of them, right? I don't imagine it's anywhere near what the reality of what happens after death is (whatever that might be), but it's hard to introduce a new way to people by saying "Hey, you know death? Well... after that, it's pretty fuckin' cool. I can't really describe it to you or anything because you can't understand it. But it's pretty fuckin' cool." That is not going to win out against constant boning.
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Sep 28, 2015 23:01
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Given how dating/romance usually work over in the West, is it difficult to date given the stipulations about unwed girls being alone with males who aren't relatives? I inquired in a previous thread about Islam and what I heard was that the modus operandi for Muslims is usually to have potential wives/husbands arranged by family and chaperoned. What do you do as someone whose family is not Muslim?
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Sep 29, 2015 00:11
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How do you feel about the Nation of Islam and deification of Wallie Fard? I've always thought the history of NoI to be very interesting, especially with their disappearing leader and his subsequent ascension to Allah status, which i'm sure can't sit well with other Muslims.
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Sep 29, 2015 00:21
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Immortan posted:I'm phone posting right now but sure later tonight when I'm near a computer.
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Sep 29, 2015 00:24
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Lassitude posted:Given how dating/romance usually work over in the West, is it difficult to date given the stipulations about unwed girls being alone with males who aren't relatives? I inquired in a previous thread about Islam and what I heard was that the modus operandi for Muslims is usually to have potential wives/husbands arranged by family and chaperoned. What do you do as someone whose family is not Muslim?  Seriously though! I haven't ever bothered much with that. The prohibition on that is more or less hadith-based. The Qur'an demands modesty and that sort of thing but the prohibitions on women being alone with men who aren't in the "you can't marry these dudes" category is pretty soundly based in the hadith unless I'm forgetting a verse somewhere. This is the closest I can really get to the idea that I remember offhand and even looking up topics in a couple areas, in terms of the Qur'an: "...and when you ask women for an article, ask for it from behind a curtain; this is a purer way for your hearts and theirs." (33:53) Fairly ambiguous, at least in the English translations I've read. In actuality it hasn't been an issue for a couple reasons, one of which it's pretty hard to date as a dwarf in a society that doesn't find cripples sexy (not that I know of any that do, but you get what I mean). I've had some relationships but none of them have lasted, a few due to my poor self-esteem at the time, a few due to normal "it just didn't work out" reasons, and the last one due to his having seven cats and no ambition. I trust myself not to get all stir-crazy and start fuckin' any dude who hands me anything. I'm of the mind that self-control is better than prohibition and that things like that are directed more towards people who can't manage it, same as I feel about alcohol and drugs. TheHoosier posted:How do you feel about the Nation of Islam and deification of Wallie Fard? I've always thought the history of NoI to be very interesting, especially with their disappearing leader and his subsequent ascension to Allah status, which i'm sure can't sit well with other Muslims.
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Sep 29, 2015 00:39
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 The cat's asleep! It's time for a post! Let’s talk a little bit more about tawhid (and by extension Islamic/Sufi metaphysics) since it’s possibly the most important defining concept in Islam and deserves more of the brief definition and mention I made of it. At its most basic meaning, tawhid refers to the absolute monotheism of Islam. La ilaha illa-llahu, there is no God but God, is the first part of the Shahadah, the declaration that makes a person a Muslim. It is the spiritual foundation of the entire faith. There is no divine or semi-divine figure like Christ, there is no one who shares the attributes of Allah. I can’t think of any Islamic school or sect that specifically doesn’t believe in that but otherwise practices Islam in every other way. So on a basic level, tawhid is the concept of Islamic monotheism. Get deeper than that, however, and you start to get into questions of existence and philosophy, which is where it gets fun if you’re a big dork like me. On a larger scale it refers to the sense of Allah being absolute and uninfluenced by existence. And now we get to touch on metaphysics and philosophy. Metaphysics in Islam is concerned in a large way with the argument of essence vs. existence. Most if not all metaphysics are in some way related to this, but it’s a particular focus in Islam. If you’ve studied philosophy, the concepts are probably familiar to you because Plato and other influential philosophers dealt with them. Essence in this case refers to the properties or attributes that make a thing what it is. The example I’m about to use is hugely simple and not technically true (you could take all of them away) but I think it kind of shows what I mean in a way that’s easy to understand: A bird is a bird because it has wings, feathers and a beak. If you take those away, it is no longer a bird. Thus, the essence of a bird and what makes it “bird” is the wings, feathers and beak. Like I said, it’s not perfect but it gets the point across. Existence is somewhat simpler. It means things (there is probably a better word than “things” but I can’t think of it just now) that exist without requiring the presence of something else. Okay, maybe that’s not simpler. In the sentence “I saw a statue over there,” it’s the statue over there that’s the focus of existence. The fact that you’re looking at it is not causing it to stand there, it would be standing there if you weren’t there. Probably an imperfect example but it gets the idea across. Islamic metaphysics deals with how we perceive the existence and essence of Allah, basically. In mainstream Islam, it is generally (to my knowledge) held that Allah is separate from His creation. Essence before existence, basically. Allah is Allah and would be Allah even if what we know as existing didn’t exist. Sufi metaphysics (depending on the school) tends to view it as more a matter of essence with existence; they’re tied together and one cannot separate Allah from creation. You may remember me mentioning wadat al-wujud and wadat ash-shuhud in an earlier post. These concepts tie directly into the Sufi (again, to what amount depends on the school and other variations, this will go without saying from here on) concept of tawhid. There are two major lines of thought. Wadat al-wujud is most poetically translated as “unity of being.” Depending on who you ask, either Ibn Arabi or Ibn Sabin was the father of the idea of wahdat al-wujud. From what I remember, Ibn Sabin tends to be viewed as the creator by those looking at history/proof, while Ibn Arabi gets mentioned in Islamic texts. The idea of wadat al-wujud is that everything that is, is a part of the divine reality. Allah is everywhere, simply. The creator cannot be distinguished from the creation because they are one thing, and anything else does not exist. The concept is based in Qur’anic verses like this one: quote:And to Allah belongs the east and the west. So wherever you turn, there is the Face of Allah. Indeed, Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing. (2:115) Does this sound suspiciously…. liberal?  Plenty of other Islamic scholars think so. That’s where wadat ash-shuhud comes in. Ahmed Sirhindi was probably the most influential scholar in terms of defining the concept. It basically states that perceived unity between Allah and His creation is false, something that appears to be true only in the mind of the person who believes it. To followers of this concept, the concept of wadat al-wujud comes perilously close to sounding like pantheism. Allah is one, but not one with creation. On a simpler level, it can also be put like this: Wadat al-wujud holds that all existence derives from Allah, who is the only thing that possesses the state of Being, and thus everything in existence is in some small way part of the divine reality. Wadat ash-shuhud holds that Allah is not an actual part of what we consider existence, but a separate thing entirely. I wandered off a bit but I imagine you can see the connection to tawhid and how within Islam the concept differs between the various sects and schools. To be honest, I didn't end up where I intended to at the start but if I write much more it's gonna get ridiculous. At least I gave an idea of some of the complexities behind what is the fundamental idea behind Islamic divinity, I hope.
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Sep 29, 2015 16:31
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Why are women placed at the back of mosques? If genders need to be separate during prayers, why not but men on the right and women on the left of a dividing screen or something? I get that Islam doesn't allow paintings, but what about music? Or other types or art. Is there such a thing as Islamic art to show the glory of Allah?
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Sep 29, 2015 16:57
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BattyKiara posted:I get that Islam doesn't allow paintings, but what about music? Or other types or art. Is there such a thing as Islamic art to show the glory of Allah?
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Sep 29, 2015 17:08
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BattyKiara posted:Why are women placed at the back of mosques? If genders need to be separate during prayers, why not but men on the right and women on the left of a dividing screen or something? BattyKiara posted:I get that Islam doesn't allow paintings, but what about music? Or other types or art. Is there such a thing as Islamic art to show the glory of Allah? Islamic art goes back to the start of Islam. The kind of art people in the west are probably most familiar with is calligraphy and architectural work, particularly in formerly-Muslim parts of Spain. Calligraphy in particular is also used as a sort of spiritual exercise as well; a bit like how Russian ikon painters were/are believed to be merely the hand through which God works to make a holy image. Doing beautiful art of the 99 names of Allah, for example, is a pretty common theme. It's meant to show both devotion and to beautify the names of Allah. Other Islamic art includes painting, weaving, ceramics, glass, metalwork -- just about every medium available. There is a traditional prohibition among many people against depicting animate beings. I think a similar one exists in some forms of Judaism as well; it's basically seen as being a possibility for idol-worship so it's safest not to. This view is not unanimous. It tends to be the view of the more conservative groups. But there is also a pretty rich history of depicting humans in Islamic art and painting, especially from the Ottomans and Persians. The Persians particularly loved huge books of illustrated poetry. Here's one example from around 1500:  Even better, that big dude in the middle is Muhammad. ...  So the people who scream about people drawing Muhammad are ignoring the artistic history of their own religion, aside from just being assholes for hurting people for drawing something. Music is another area that's kind of like this. Conservatives say no, others say yes. The Qur'an talks about Allah giving the Psalms to David, and they're songs. My agreement has always come down firmly on the side of "music is good." I don't listen to it when I pray but that, like being totally sober during prayer, is more a matter of focus and respect. EDIT tl;dr: HEY GAL posted:it's difficult to overstate how much these guys love calligraphy
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Sep 29, 2015 17:27
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BattyKiara posted:I get that Islam doesn't allow paintings, but what about music? Or other types or art. Is there such a thing as Islamic art to show the glory of Allah? I thought the prohibition on art was a Salafi thing. Newsweek ran a pretty good article (depicts Mohamed) about that stuff. quote:In regard to image making, the earliest and most synthetic source is the medieval law book of Ibn Qudama (died 1223), a towering Sunni theologian of the medieval period. In his handbook, Ibn Qudama discusses the various possible “abominations” that can occur at wedding ceremonies, including the playing of music and backgammon, the consumption of liquor, and the presence of images. As for the legality of images, he notes that the question is complicated because it depends on what the images depict and where they are situated. He thus concludes that images are not prohibited per se; rather, their legality depends on content and context.
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Sep 29, 2015 17:29
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I'm ashamed to admit that I thought the prohibition was more wide-spread than it is, based on that article. Probably because no one's out there doing extreme poo poo to, I don't know, force people to draw Muhammad or whatever the opposite of assholes blowing them up for doing so is. Like I said, I'm not a member of any local community, but generally the Sufi are a bit more tolerant of that kind of thing. Music is actually used as a devotional tool in more than one sect. One of my go-to albums for writing is Thunder of Swords by Muhammed Celalettin Yüksel. Sufi trance, basically, with inspiration from Rumi and the like. It may not be to everyone's taste but check it out if you're interested, pretty cheap on Amazon mp3.
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Sep 29, 2015 17:43
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Tendai posted:The answer is, I do not know. I'm actually not even totally sure why so many places separate them as in places like Mecca, say, everyone worships together during the Hajj. From what I've always read it seems to be more a hadith/sunna deal than the Qur'an, I can't think of any verses that are unambiguously geared towards that. Again I have to say that I've always been fairly solitary just due to where I've lived, so I'm not totally in tune with public worship and why it is how it is unless it's something I've studied in relation to something else. Its because of Male gaze, women prostating and whatnot will reveal features and distract, etc thats what i was taught, not sure where it comes from. If a woman leads a public prayer she needs to have a curtain between her and the people who pray. BattyKiara posted:Why are women placed at the back of mosques? If genders need to be separate during prayers, why not but men on the right and women on the left of a dividing screen or something? Outside of calligraphy and geometric art mosques aren't as rich as middle eastern church murals for example, the simple affair though is also probably based on not being distracted while praying  Music is another form, this is in hadith though, and in general stringed and fluted instruments are to be avoided if its a religious occassion, the usage of drums or some sort of instrument with a dulled tone is alright afaik. There is middle eastern art thats inspired by islam, but you don't mix secular with religious most of the time, secular middle eastern music doesn't have that limitation, also arabs being a bit more stringent than other cultures do have some artwork depicting humans and animals in a palace so its not really completely out of the question to have secular art.
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Sep 29, 2015 21:36
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I was reading a paper about Hui (Chinese Muslim) ceremonies, and it mentioned a ceremony where they recite the entire Qur'an- by having 30 people each read a different chapter simultaneously and getting it done in half an hour. Is that commonly done in other parts of the world? Sounds pretty chill.
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Sep 29, 2015 21:39
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Thank you for interesting replies. But I was thinking more of if there is an Islamic version of things like psalms, plain song, or gregorian chant. You do not have to be a believer to admire the incredible art produced through church history. I can understand the idea of "OK, prayer time, let's make it easier to consentrate on God and not look at the pretty girl by separating the genders". I do not agree with it, but I can understand it. Still think some kind of side by side separation would be better than back to front. More equal? I have yet another question, but that is sort of personal. Feel free to disregard if you want to. You have mentioned being disabled. Does that make it harder to do the kneeling and prostrating? If you are completely unable to do the correct movement, because you are in a wheelchair or something, does this mean you can't pray at all? Obviously facing Mecca is important, but if you were somewhere without a compass, would you have to skip a prayer, or is it more a case of doing your best, God will understand?
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Sep 29, 2015 22:08
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P-Mack posted:I was reading a paper about Hui (Chinese Muslim) ceremonies, and it mentioned a ceremony where they recite the entire Qur'an- by having 30 people each read a different chapter simultaneously and getting it done in half an hour. Is that commonly done in other parts of the world? Sounds pretty chill. BattyKiara posted:Thank you for interesting replies. But I was thinking more of if there is an Islamic version of things like psalms, plain song, or gregorian chant. You do not have to be a believer to admire the incredible art produced through church history. I've done a thread called ask me about being a dwarf and I'm relatively sure I answered questions about pooping so there is no such thing as too personal in A/T. And yes! The way my knees and hips all go together makes it impossible for me to kneel without pitching forward unless I hold onto something, much less do the proscribed prostration etc etc etc. This, amusingly enough, actually kept me from doing my conversion for about six months. I really kind of worried that if I couldn't do that it wouldn't count (I was sixteen, we're all dumb at sixteen). The thing that changed my mind was a picture in a news magazine or a book made by one of them (Time Life or somesuch) of what I think was a Hamas member praying. Maybe PLO. It's been 15+ years since I saw it. Something like that in any case. And he had been injured and couldn't kneel and they talked about him praying in a squatting position and that's when it drove into my head that duh, it's the intent and not the form. It's not like Allah doesn't know I'm a dwarf, and I'm fairly sure that hurling forward to concuss myself against the floor is less ideal than sitting or squatting to pray. You wouldn't skip a prayer in that case, you'd just guess and go with it. It's fairly easy to tell at least a general direction based on the sun if you don't know it already, isn't it? I don't have one of the special compasses or anything (I've even seen a gaudy, loving god-awful gold one aimed at people with more money than taste) so I approximate because I know where I am and where Mecca is, globally speaking. Tendai fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 00:13
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Tendai posted:I haven't heard about anything like that in other areas, but I also hadn't heard of it at all till you just mentioned it. That's kind of cool, I wonder if there are videos of it to see what it sounds like. Hey thanks alot for this thread by the way, and yeah sorry about not finding out earlier that the intent is what counts, in general though "ina aldeen yusr wa lais usr" which can be translated as "religion is to be taken with ease and not difficulty" i think is the rule, if you face difficulty in practicing it then you're just creating unnecessary hardship on yourself when it should be taken with ease, although conservatives tend to translate this, or some people twist it into "oh hey if i bust my bones the rewards are better" which is wrong BattyKiara posted:Thank you for interesting replies. But I was thinking more of if there is an Islamic version of things like psalms, plain song, or gregorian chant. You do not have to be a believer to admire the incredible art produced through church history. You might want to google nasheed, they're sorta like acapella chants? i dunno, i'm not very familiar with this genre of music but some people don't listen to music due to the hadiths and this sort of popped up as an alternative. With regards to gender prayers, whats best if mosques were partitioned equally, it happens where i live but its not always equal. The women to the back thing is usually when there isn't a partition. There was a public prayer were women prayed in front of men during the protests in egypt in 2011 so i'm not really sure if a rule or just something cultural.
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Sep 30, 2015 02:06
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Fizzil posted:Hey thanks alot for this thread by the way, and yeah sorry about not finding out earlier that the intent is what counts, in general though "ina aldeen yusr wa lais usr" which can be translated as "religion is to be taken with ease and not difficulty" i think is the rule, if you face difficulty in practicing it then you're just creating unnecessary hardship on yourself when it should be taken with ease, although conservatives tend to translate this, or some people twist it into "oh hey if i bust my bones the rewards are better" which is wrong Fizzil posted:With regards to gender prayers, whats best if mosques were partitioned equally, it happens where i live but its not always equal. The women to the back thing is usually when there isn't a partition. There was a public prayer were women prayed in front of men during the protests in egypt in 2011 so i'm not really sure if a rule or just something cultural. As far as I can tell it's all pretty much based on interpretations of the hadith and sunna, and maybe a very liberal interpretation of 33:53. Very, very liberal. EDIT: If people are interested in more specifically Islamic music, there are a number of Sufi varieties. Qawwali, ayin (from the Mevlevi) and gazals are the ones that spring to mind, but I know there are more. Gazals are just Sufi as gently caress (to put it in a less than classy manner) because they deal with loss and love and beauty and connection. Tendai fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 03:15
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Being unemployed means my mornings have started to consist of getting up, feeding the cat, staring blankly at a screen for fifteen minutes and then writing a post about Islam because I have nothing but time and my brain is desperate for stimulation. So here we go again! Today we will be talking about... The two parts of faith This will be short and probably not as exciting as other bits if you're the kind of nerd like me who considers reading things like that exciting in the first place. Anyhow. There are two parts to the concept of faith in Muslim theology, sabr and shukr. Faith in Islam is not, at the deeper theological levels, simply a matter of believing. There's the implication of also being a good Muslim, for lack of a better term. I don't like that one because it has implications and arguments attached but it'll work. Islam is really focused on action and how one interacts with the world, not unlike the Christian concept that some denominations hold about man not being saved through faith alone but also works. Faith is an attribute not only about belief, but qualities a person possesses. Sabr I think I mentioned sabr earlier in this thread as I talked about translations. Yes, I did: Sabr can be translated as "patience." Or "endurance." But really it's more like "continuing to try even when the odds look slim. It's like an active form of patience." Obviously this is a quality that other people cultivate, too, not just Muslims. But it's a side of Islam that doesn't get a lot of press, possibly because people trying to be patient and tranquil is boring or more likely because people blowing poo poo up makes more of an impression. Anyhow, various Muslim scholars over the years have listed various aspects of sabr. Some of them apply them to Islam only and some apply them to interactions with the world as a whole. Here's a couple: quote:Khwajah abd Allah al-Ansari: "Sabr means restraining the self from complaint about hidden anguish." As with many sort of hard-to-define concepts like this in Islam, sabr plays a huge part in Sufi thought. One of the best write-ups I've found of how explicitely important it is to the Sufi mindset is from the same site I got the above quotes: quote:As long as a person feels inner anguish over the misfortunes and hardships of life, his ma'rifah (gnosis) of God remains deficient. When a person achieves contentment (rida) and satisfaction at the misfortunes and adverse conditions, his soul reaches a higher station of nearness to God. Sufi thought holds that sabr is an integral part of reaching the state of rida, it ties in to what I mentioned before about ihsan and that kind of thing. All of the attitudes encompassed within the idea (patience, resilience, endurance, resolve) are qualities that every muhsin attains and perfects. In the wider sense of Islam, it's used to refer to things like avoiding temptation, keeping up with the rules of Islam and that kind of thing. One of the hadith that I think is a good example of using them as a parable of sorts is the one where Muhammad says "Strange is the affair of the the believer, verily all his affairs are good for him. If something pleasing befalls him he thanks Allah and it becomes better for him. And if something harmful befalls him he is patient (sabr) and it becomes better for him." Every crisis is an opportunity, essentially. The next part of faith in Islam that I'll talk about is... Shukr If sabr is best translated in one word as "patience," shukr is best translated in one word as "gratitude." But again, here we find the whole thing about how a one-word translation for a concept this complex isn't going to cut it. But it's a good start. Obviously, gratitude to Allah is the most standard definition here, as shown through prayer and other forms of worship. But interestingly it can also be applied to Allah. My understanding of that is a little hazy but when used in that sense it seems to be referring to the response of Allah to creation? I'm not sure. This is a deeper area of Sufi/Muslim thought than I'd gotten into and one that I'll now be trying to find more about. On a wider level, particularly in Sufi thought, shukr is applied to the way one lives and interacts with the world around them. A "good Muslim" (agh that term) is somebody who not only thanks Allah for what's around them, but also the people through whom it's been introduced to them. It's more than just saying "thank you" though, it's about living your life in a state of gratitude through the trials that afflict everyone, whether they do or don't follow Islam. Like ibn Ishaq said, "There is no one that is not tested with health and prosperity to measure how thankful (shukr) he is." That quote illustrates how it ties in with sabr, how in Islamic thought gratitude and patience are closely tied together. The focus on this is one of the reasons that Muslims seem to say things like "Glory to God" and such so often in comparison to the average, say, Christian that one meets in the west. But scholars and religious sources are extremely clear that people who apply the theory only to Allah and not to everything are not doing it right. There's a really common proverb that says "he who does not thank his fellow man shows ingratitude towards Allah." If you've been reading what I've been writing in this thread, the connection to Sufi thought is probably painfully loving obvious by now. A muhsin, the person who has reached that state of what could be called Islamic buddhahood, is somebody who is constantly grateful. Not in a slavish sort of way, though. I think the best way I can put it is kind of being filled with wonder and delight at the whole of existence and thankful that you get to be a part of it and thankful to Allah for making you a part of it. There's an implied happiness in it in the schools of Sufi thought I'm familiar with that's really lovely. I remember reading a Bloom County comic way back in the day that discussed a someone who commented that the very fact of our existence should leave us in a state of perpetual awe. Considering my faulty memory and the passage of time, I might be remembering that entirely incorrectly, but the message remains the same. For me, that idea is essentially what shukr is when not an active thing. ~ Anyhow, this has been today's rambling post on Islamic theology and I hope at least one person found it interesting 
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Sep 30, 2015 15:38
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I think it sounds like a better word for sabr might be perseverance?
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Sep 30, 2015 18:33
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Flagrant Abuse posted:I think it sounds like a better word for sabr might be perseverance?
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Sep 30, 2015 18:34
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Tendai posted:Yeah, I didn't quite realize that at first. I remember sitting there stressing about it in my US History class one day, weirdly enough. Going over something in the 1800s and I'm sitting there having an internal debate about Islam. Gladly, these are my experiences so its sort of anecdotal i guess, but here goes! I live in the UAE, I'm Sunni, like the majority of the people here, there is a Shia minority and a big group of expats being Ibadis (Almost all of them are Omanis who've come to work in the UAE), i'll touch on those two sects a little bit later. Its greatly stressed that prayer should be done on time and if possible do a group prayer at a mosque, this isn't very difficult, its a 2-3 minute drive from my area (i live in some sort of suburban area in the outskirts of Abu Dhabi) so when an Azan blares i could drive to a mosque and do it, but since i'm a goony goon whose an incredibly lazy shut in i don't really do it all the time. There is the "Jum'a" friday prayers where there is a sermon before the prayer, just to clarify these are all prebaked by a centralized ministry to deliver messages or public announcements, after the the jum'a prayers the imam typically gets up and blurts warnings about not scrawling graffiti in the toilets or loitering on mosque grounds. There is a basement prayer room thats used when maintenance is working on the ground floor in case thats required, Women are allocated a seperate part of the mosque it has its own entrance and isn't accessible from the male area, it has a loud speaker for when an imam (the job is held exclusively by men for various reasons) leads the prayer from the other room. Women aren't required to attend a mosque, and from what i hear from female neighbours its usually empty, except for the Imams sister and wife who pray there. Onto the other sects, The Ibadis are a sect who are almost all Omani expats, they come to work in the UAE, and they usually look for private sector jobs here, what makes them low key is that they aren't radically different from Sunnis. If they do join us in prayers they will follow the sunni method, but i don't know if you're familiar with how prayers have variations where you sort of cross your arms when reciting verses and then prostate and whatnot, ibadis don't do that. The perception that reciting and not folding your arms is an ibadi practice but sunnis and shia do it too sometimes so it can get kinda confusing. It gets interesting in an Ibadi mosque though, i think you've seen how Al fatihah at the end is usually followed by a big "Amen" hail by sunnis, this isn't the case in an Ibadi mosque, and when its said its in a very low tone. The Shia are the filthy other , its kinda sad because sunnis sort of drew a line and generally don't mix with shia congregations, for example some places have two mosques built next to each other due to that. I'm not familiar with Shia prayer practices, its not very different from the sunni one actually, a smaller group of shia (Ja'fari, Zaydi etc) are pretty easy to blend in with sunnis as they do most of the same stuff, the twelvers form the majority though and they do have some different practices than sunnis, one is an occassion called a "Husaniyah" (mourning ritual, which is a sombre moment where people shed a tear on the assassination of the prophets grandsons) and a special day called A'shoura, thats the day they beat themselves on the chest and its more about wailing loudly, self flagellation is banned though. Thats about it for the day to day things where i live and hear from others.
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Sep 30, 2015 23:22
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Oh cool, thank you! I didn't know about the differences in prayer that the Ibadis observe, or about the end of al-Fatihah. Or anything about their presence in the UAE! My knowledge of Islamic theology is probably a lot better than my knowledge of how it's practiced in places, unfortunately. I've always wondered about women in mosques, since it's not required of them anywhere that I know of I was always kind of curious how many actually did. Though I imagine it varies by place/economics/culture/etc etc like everything does. So Shi'a and Sunni are really that separated in day to day life? Wow. I think my experiences are somewhat colored by having met far more people through the internet because of where I've lived; the message boards and such I'd go to in 2000 and around then tended to have some of both and everyone was, at least, very good at pretending to be civil and not showing if they thought anyone else was a filthy heretic. Thank you again, it was really cool to get that insight.
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Oct 1, 2015 02:22
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Aisha, married her when she was six, slept with her when she was 9. Then stuff like approval of slavery or murdering of scoffers, misogyny etc.... Sure all religions have questionable aspects, but how do you, especially as you are a convert, deal with your prophets most obvious shortcomings?
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Oct 1, 2015 09:48
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You're right that no reasonable person would consider any of those things acceptable today, but you also have to look at them in the context of the time—while Islam sadly hasn't progressed quite as far as a lot of other major religions have, the fact is that none of those things were remotely unusual for the time that it was established, whether in Arabia or elsewhere. Slavery in one form or another was practiced in a huge number of societies around the world until within just the last few hundred years. Islam's relative (but not total) lack of progression makes it misogynistic by today's standards, but at the time of its founding it was more progressive than pre-Islamic Arabian society, and did things like put a limit on the number of wives that a man could have, and although that limit was more than one, it was still a limit where none had previously existed. And gross as they are, child brides weren't exactly unheard of in Europe during the same time, either. Context is important. You have to remember that in the late 500s and early 600s when Muhammad (pbuh) lived, the world in general was a hosed-up place. It doesn't remotely excuse it, but it does mean that we have to be careful in how we apply our own views to our judgments of the past.
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Oct 1, 2015 11:51
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