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PT6A posted:Do you think that people who were raised Muslim in the context of a Muslim-majority culture have more leeway with regard to straying from orthodoxy than converts do? It amazes me, for example, that historically Muslim communities in Europe and Central Asia basically allow alcohol, but it's strictly forbidden in a lot of other Muslim communities. Do you feel like you'd catch more poo poo for something like that compared to, for example, a Bosnian muslim? How would you feel about it personally? The opposite actually. But it also depends on the skin colour. White converts get the hardest time and high pressure to be 100% orthodox. A white convert can be a Muslim for 20+ years and in the eyes of no whities/no converts, they will always be n00bs who are walking in for the first time. Muslim borns are quick to lecture and "teach" converts how to do things correctly. There is a bit of "lol this silly newb" but there is also a HUGE pressure to be perfect. In Muslim born eyes, since this person has chosen to be a Muslim, that means they agreed 100%, and want to live the 100% Muslim lifestyle. For many Muslims that 100% lifestyle is the orthodox root. When a convert doesn't practice it 100% orthodox, they are looked down and often not considered "true" Muslims. White converts who don't go orthodox are often as seen as those whities who are coming in and "ruining" Islam; making it their own religion and thus not actually following the word of God. You have no idea how many stories of "Ah, but you see, you can't pray in English. You have to pray in Arabic. What do you mean your Arabic is awful? Sure, if you pray wrong your prayers aren't valid BUT I KNOW THIS ONE CONVERT who learned how to pray in Arabic perfectly in just TWO hours! He kept doing it over and over and over again! Now is his studying to be a scholar and mashAllah, he wears a Azhar Jubba, and a a kufi, and fasts every other day, and prays 10 times a day!" I hope I got the lingo right. I am rusty on my Islamic clothing words.
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Jun 3, 2016 02:02
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Tendai posted:DrNewton has pretty much hit it on the head. I get much more poo poo for being non-Orthodox than someone who isn't a convert, I don't know how much skin color plays into it but that's just through lack of observation on my part. There's the assumption that I'm just saying I'm a Muslim or trying to be cool because I don't wear a headscarf and I smoke pot. While dudes who I've known who were born into Muslim families most definitely didn't prescribe to orthodox Muslim interpretations of modesty, and drank like goddamn fishes, and didn't get blinked at. You are a convert and smoke pot? Oh my gosh, I like you. I have thought about converting since high school, but the pressure to be orthodox was too much so I never did. Kind of nice to see some non converts who went the orthodox path.
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Jun 5, 2016 05:14
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NihilismNow posted:This is not really the case. Muslims in Western europe are very conservative and hate gays as much as your average middle eastern muslim. I live 50% in Amsterdam, 50% in Canada and I kind of agree with what you saying. In Amsterdam, the Muslim population has differently came, and sort of made certain area's their's. Pretty much pretended to still be in their homeland kind of deal. They haven't ingratiated very well into the country. But a lot of those Muslims are either born in a Muslim country, or are secound generation and still hold a lot of the "homeland" values. Because of this, a lot of dutch Muslims are more open about being against homosexuality and other lifestyle views that tend to clash with western lifestyles. In The Netherlands there is very much a us vs them that both Muslims and white dutch people happily par take in. That being said, I find the younger generations are changing that. I have met many Muslims who are open minded and some are even gay themselves. There are also young Muslims who are very much ingratiating into both cultural (with some difficulty thanks to the older generation of both sides). Meanwhile, in Canada, the entire Canadian "cultural" is all about multiculturalism, and there really is no way of cutting yourself from it. Yes you can have neighborhoods who are majority of said cultural or religion, but in the end Muslims are interacting with non Muslims a lot during their day. Canadian Muslims are not openly against gays, because it is very socially pressured to not speak against other lifestyles, and to be part of this utopia of mix cultural/lifestyles and acceptance. So Canadian Muslims generally keep their mouths shut about these sort of topics. Except when Ontario tried to change the sex ed curriculum which talked about homosexuality. Funny enough though, I find Muslims in Amsterdam are more liberal with their outfits, even the ladies who wear head scarfs. I have seen track suit tom boy hijabi ladies, western stylish hijab ladies, and ladies who wore hijabs and mixed both traditional and western into their outfits. They are really into fusion modern wear with modest wear. While in my city in Canada, Muslims either don't wear the scarf, or they are full out scarf, abaya, niqabs, etc. I actually find the Muslims here in Canada more conservative in some aspects, especially in clothing. So what I am saying is, if you are gay in Amsterdam, its best not walk down the street holding hands with your partner in a muslin community, but at the same time, you won't be killed over it.
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Oct 30, 2016 18:12
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