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RabidWeasel posted:As bad as it is now to look back at the failings of history I can only imagine how poo poo it was to be someone who lived through the Russian Revolution and then got to see it quickly turn into a slightly different type of autocracy Slightly different? The autocracy of Stalin's Soviet Union was far more pervasive and oppressive than anything Tsarist Russia ever managed or could even dream of managing. Sure we are talking about dictatorships essentially in both cases, but the totalitarian states of the 20th century were entirely different beasts to virtually any oppressive regime that had come before.
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Oct 19, 2018 21:49
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RabidWeasel posted:As bad as it is now to look back at the failings of history I can only imagine how poo poo it was to be someone who lived through the Russian Revolution and then got to see it quickly turn into a slightly different type of autocracy
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Oct 19, 2018 21:55
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crusader kings 2 has a "purge jews" button though
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Oct 19, 2018 22:00
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Cease to Hope posted:crusader kings 2 has a "purge jews" button though
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Oct 19, 2018 22:03
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Cease to Hope posted:crusader kings 2 has a "purge jews" button though
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Oct 19, 2018 22:07
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Phlegmish posted:Stalin wasn't all bad, in the sense that at least most of his fellow criminals eventually got their turn and ended up in the gulags and/or mass graves themselves. I wonder if when they get to reworking the Soviet focus tree, if they will choose to go about possibly replacing Stalin with someone other than Trotsky. Now I wouldn't mind necessarily being able to invite Trotsky back for a non-Stalinist regime and maybe eventually have him end up as a leader, but the Trotskyite plot actually being real is a bit ludicrous really. Anyway, I was wondering (it's been a while since I read anything but the broadest stroke about the Soviet Union in the 1930s) if Stalin could have been deposed, who would have done it and how? What's some not-ridiculous alternatives (though I'm guessing a return of the Tsar is going to make it in, because you gotta have them monarchs)? A somewhat less terrible communist regime seems the most likely outcome, is there anyone at the time who would be likely to lead this? I'm guessing you'd have a provisional leader like maybe Kalinin or some other popular figurehead guy until you make the actual choice to have Trotsky or Khruschev (maybe, though he's possibly small fish still in 36/37) or someone like that take charge. A military coup putting Zhukov or maybe even a non-purged Tukhachevsky in command until things are figured out, might open the possibility to transition into a number of different governments and ideologies, at least non-aligned and democratic, similar to the alt-history path for Germany. A third option might also be for Yezhov* who headed the NKVD during much of the purges, and was purged himself, to move against Stalin, or maybe even Beria, though both of those guys are pretty much as bad as Stalin, if not worse in certain aspects. * Perhaps most famous today for having been erased from that photograph  Anyway, look at him, if that's not an obviously evil little poo poo, I don't know. Also a veritable manlet, seeing as Stalin was only something like 5'5" himself (and basically wore platform boots to make himself look taller). Oh, man just reading though his wiki article, the description of him by a Marxist author, Boris Nicolaevsky, is quite something Boris Nicolaevsky posted:In the whole of my long life, I have never met a more repellent personality than Yezhov's. When I look at him I am reminded irresistibly of the wicked urchins of the courts in Rasterayeva Street, whose favorite occupation was to tie a piece of paper dipped in kerosene to a cat's tail, set fire to it, and then watch with delight how the terrified animal would tear down the street, trying desperately but in vain to escape the approaching flames. I do not doubt that in his childhood Yezhov amused himself in just such a manner and that he is now continuing to do so in different forms. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 22:10
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that's a poor hair to split if you know anything at all about medieval pogroms
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Oct 19, 2018 22:11
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Randarkman posted:Slightly different? The autocracy of Stalin's Soviet Union was far more pervasive and oppressive than anything Tsarist Russia ever managed or could even dream of managing. Sure we are talking about dictatorships essentially in both cases, but the totalitarian states of the 20th century were entirely different beasts to virtually any oppressive regime that had come before. You're right, I should have said worse; I was focusing more on the dissonance between 'what you get' and 'what you expected'.
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Oct 19, 2018 22:15
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Cease to Hope posted:crusader kings 2 has a "purge jews" button though CK2: Taking a woman you captured in a raid as concubine is very much rape. The event to replace the native populace of a province with settlers from your home is either genocide or ethnic cleansing (or both). The various methods of execution can be really brutal (blood eagle anyone?). The satanists top this brutality. You can lock wholly innocent people away for the rest of their lives. Even 1 year old babies. You can literally buy women as a merchant republic to become the brides of men from your dynasty. Even "normal" marriage is problematic. After all, women aren't asked for their opinion. And from today's perspective, marrying a lesbian without asking her for consent, and then fathering a bunch of kids with her... that's rape, right? You can burn down the whole of Eurasia as nomads, reducing every city to rubble. Murder is more or less expected. Plotting to kill a vassal's children so that you can inherit their titles is a common move. You can castrate political opponents as the right culture. You can expel Jews. There's a lot of evil poo poo you can do in CK2.
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Oct 19, 2018 22:18
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see this is why i only play the USSR. the purges are entirely morally justified ingame and then you spend the rest of the game killing nazis
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Oct 19, 2018 22:20
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Raskolnikov38 posted:see this is why i only play the USSR. the purges are entirely morally justified ingame and then you spend the rest of the game killing nazis They're only morally justified if you think the Real Trotskyist Plot is worse than Stalin though. Which, hell, in hoi4 logic it might be
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Oct 19, 2018 22:26
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Torrannor posted:CK2: Taking a woman you captured in a raid as concubine is very much rape. The event to replace the native populace of a province with settlers from your home is either genocide or ethnic cleansing (or both). The various methods of execution can be really brutal (blood eagle anyone?). The satanists top this brutality. You can lock wholly innocent people away for the rest of their lives. Even 1 year old babies. You can literally buy women as a merchant republic to become the brides of men from your dynasty. Even "normal" marriage is problematic. After all, women aren't asked for their opinion. And from today's perspective, marrying a lesbian without asking her for consent, and then fathering a bunch of kids with her... that's rape, right? You can burn down the whole of Eurasia as nomads, reducing every city to rubble. Murder is more or less expected. Plotting to kill a vassal's children so that you can inherit their titles is a common move. You can castrate political opponents as the right culture. You can expel Jews. Tbh it's a little surprising that CK2 hasn't gotten more flak for the amount of (implicit) sexual violence you can perpetrate. Maybe because it's a relatively niche game and also not at all pornographic I guess
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Oct 19, 2018 22:35
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I think EU4 is probably more hosed up than CK2, it's just that CK2 usually shows you when you're actually killing people, whereas EU4 just presents it all as statistics and systems. Like once you have even a little awareness of that period of history it becomes very clear that a big chunk of the little buttons and meters and percentages you fiddle with in EU4 would, historically, have involved a lot of people being killed, beaten, or imprisoned. And you do it on a much greater scale in EU4 than you do in CK2.
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Oct 19, 2018 22:36
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VostokProgram posted:They're only morally justified if you think the Real Trotskyist Plot is worse than Stalin though. Which, hell, in hoi4 logic it might be before they buffed trotsky it absolutely was
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Oct 19, 2018 22:36
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Red Bones posted:I think EU4 is probably more hosed up than CK2, it's just that CK2 usually shows you when you're actually killing people, whereas EU4 just presents it all as statistics and systems. Like once you have even a little awareness of that period of history it becomes very clear that a big chunk of the little buttons and meters and percentages you fiddle with in EU4 would, historically, have involved a lot of people being killed, beaten, or imprisoned. And you do it on a much greater scale in EU4 than you do in CK2. Oh I'm sure that me painting the entirety of the southern New World with Spanish colonies was actually a cool and good time for the natives that lived there and furthermore
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Oct 19, 2018 22:39
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Raskolnikov38 posted:before they buffed trotsky it absolutely was I now have a fantastic mental image of Swole Gym Rat Trotsky.
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Oct 19, 2018 22:48
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Tanks are good, crushing the Hungarian uprising and ending the pogroms was one of the only good things Khrushchev did. And members of the Czech government asked for Soviet and Warsaw pact intervention. lol, how about you go gently caress yourself, you piece of poo poo
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Oct 20, 2018 23:29
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no you.
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Oct 21, 2018 11:21
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Mátyás Rákosi and Ernö Gerő did nothing wrong, and the revisionist Kruchovite Kádár-regime was illegitimate. The devil Tito got to them all!
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Oct 21, 2018 11:44
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I mean, if reddit has all the fasc and wehraboos, its unsurprising we get all the vanguardies and man of rust fans. Authoritarian bullshitters gotta get on somewhere.
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Oct 21, 2018 11:53
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Nosfereefer posted:Mátyás Rákosi and Ernö Gerő did nothing wrong, and the revisionist Kruchovite Kádár-regime was illegitimate. The devil Tito got to them all! Haha epic lulz XD StealthArcher posted:I mean, if reddit has all the fasc and wehraboos, its unsurprising we get all the vanguardies and man of rust fans. Authoritarian bullshitters gotta get on somewhere. There's a surprisingly large overlap, or maybe not so surprising.
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Oct 21, 2018 11:57
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StealthArcher posted:I mean, if reddit has all the fasc and wehraboos, its unsurprising we get all the vanguardies and man of rust fans. Authoritarian bullshitters gotta get on somewhere. It's easy to understand where left-authoritarians in general are coming from, less so tankies, unreformed Trotskyists, etc.
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Oct 21, 2018 12:23
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RabidWeasel posted:It's easy to understand where left-authoritarians in general are coming from, less so tankies, unreformed Trotskyists, etc. I mean it's very easy to understand. It was a successful socialist society and all evidence points to Khrushchev having lied through his teeth. Stalin didn't do nothing wrong, but like Deng said of Mao, he was only wrong about 30% of the time. Certainly not the monster the late USSR wanted to paint him as.
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Oct 21, 2018 12:51
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 What did I tell you.
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Oct 21, 2018 12:59
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Tankies and Maoists should also get hosed.
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Oct 21, 2018 12:59
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Phlegmish posted:
It was bought for me for saying protesting at ANZAC day shouldn't be an arrestable offence. What an example of a red-brown alliance! 
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Oct 21, 2018 13:00
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the only acceptable ideology is posadism, hth
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Oct 21, 2018 13:00
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:It was bought for me for saying protesting at ANZAC day shouldn't be an arrestable offence. What an example of a red-brown alliance! Sure, must be a coincidence. Go loving die in a gulag you piece of poo poo, unlike most of the people in there you'd have actually deserved it. That's the only good thing about Stalin, he would have known what to do with you. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 21, 2018 13:03
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Oh no, a maximum 10 year sentence with an average of 5. What an awful inhumane system.
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Oct 21, 2018 13:06
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gulags: actually not a bad thing, more like cool-ags
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Oct 21, 2018 13:22
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Not the Messiah posted:gulags: actually not a bad thing, more like cool-ags Technically it beats getting a bullet to the back of the head on the same night they came for you. To be a neo-nazi/Stalinist you basically need to have lost all capacity for human empathy. Thankfully, and despite what you might think from the Internet, they're still an extreme minority.
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Oct 21, 2018 13:28
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Jeoh posted:the only acceptable ideology is posadism, hth tito will remember this
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Oct 21, 2018 14:12
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Phlegmish posted:To be a neo-nazi/Stalinist you basically need to have lost all capacity for human empathy. Phlegmish posted:Go loving die in a gulag you piece of poo poo 
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Oct 21, 2018 14:34
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:I mean it's very easy to understand. It was a successful socialist society and all evidence points to Khrushchev having lied through his teeth. Stalin didn't do nothing wrong, but like Deng said of Mao, he was only wrong about 30% of the time. Certainly not the monster the late USSR wanted to paint him as. 
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Oct 21, 2018 14:49
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Oh no, a maximum 10 year sentence with an average of 5. What an awful inhumane system. During the anti-kulak operations you could be executed the same day a troika of secret police and communist party cadres agreed you were guilty (they didn't need evidence to pass the sentence and there was no appeal) http://home.ku.edu.tr/~mbaker/cshs522/gettymassrepressions.pdf
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Oct 21, 2018 14:53
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Enjoy posted:During the anti-kulak operations you could be executed the same day a troika of secret police and communist party cadres agreed you were guilty (they didn't need evidence to pass the sentence and there was no appeal) cool and good imo
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Oct 21, 2018 15:13
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Oct 21, 2018 15:20
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Pull up, thread! Pull up!
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Oct 21, 2018 15:21
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gas thread, gulag everyone who posted on this pgae
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Oct 21, 2018 15:28
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Yall know you're in games and not d&d right?
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Oct 21, 2018 15:50
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