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Clarste posted:There's no indication that the Gundam is super-powerful. It seems to be an obsolete piece of junk that they're barely keeping moving, worth only the power its reactors can produce. All its prowess comes from the AV system. Which, to be fair, is just another way of saying that the hero is super-special, except in a tortured way. But the machine itself doesn't seem all that great. The Gundam is explicitly super-powerful. It has two reactors compared to the one reactor every other machine has. This is stated onscreen. Everything we've seen from the Barbatos is that even functioning below its Calamity War specs, it still has extremely high output and very strong armor. This is all stuff stated onscreen by characters we can assume are correct in their comments. Like Barbatos is right now a barely held-together machine. It launched last episode with several systems malfunctioning. The fact that it is still probably the highest performing machine on the battlefield at any given time despite being hastily stitched together by people who don't know what they're doing is a testament to its base abilities. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Nov 21, 2015 |
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Nov 21, 2015 23:24
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Tekkadan doesn't have anybody on the engineering side that actually has worked with or understands tech as old as Gundams though. not that they're likely to fall into that sort of expertise, but it has at least been referenced as a reason for why Barbatos would be performing poorly, aside from Mika's inexperience.
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Nov 21, 2015 23:25
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Clarste posted:There's no indication that the Gundam is super-powerful. It seems to be an obsolete piece of junk that they're barely keeping moving, worth only the power its reactors can produce. All its prowess comes from the AV system. Which, to be fair, is just another way of saying that the hero is super-special, except in a tortured way. But the machine itself doesn't seem all that great. No, the Gundam is special. It's got twin reactors, which make it stronger and faster than any modern (humanoid) suit. We see this in its fights (apart from anything else, it's why it can swing around its stupidly huge weaponry so effortlessly), and several characters comment on it.
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Nov 21, 2015 23:26
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Also at least one person standing around going 'Oh wow, its one of the famous Gundams from the Calamity War'
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Nov 21, 2015 23:27
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They said it had two reactors, that didn't say that made it stronger, faster, or better than modern machines. Like, no one has ever said that. For all the show's implied, two reactors is a stupid design that they stopped using for good reason. The "super spec mega machine" idea could only have come from your own assumptions. The one guy commenting on it only noted the pilot's good reflexes, not the speed of the machine or anything. Edit: Famous is also not the same as superior. It's a historical relic.
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Nov 21, 2015 23:34
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Clarste posted:They said it had two reactors, that didn't say that made it stronger, faster, or better than modern machines. Like, no one has ever said that. For all the show's implied, two reactors is a stupid design that they stopped using for good reason. The "super spec mega machine" idea could only have come from your own assumptions. Crank and Ein did indeed freak out a little over its strength, and their Grazes were shown being pushed back when they blade-locked (standard shorthand for one combatant being stronger than the other). The Barbatos is consistently shown to be pretty damned powerful.
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Nov 21, 2015 23:38
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Clarste posted:They said it had two reactors, that didn't say that made it stronger, faster, or better than modern machines. Like, no one has ever said that. For all the show's implied, two reactors is a stupid design that they stopped using for good reason. The "super spec mega machine" idea could only have come from your own assumptions. The one guy commenting on it only noted the pilot's good reflexes, not the speed of the machine or anything. ... No it isn't. Like you're straight-up incorrect here. Multiple people have discussed how powerful the machine is. It is shown to be more durable and stronger than everything it faces and the only time Mika is outclassed so far is when his opponent out-tactics him and even then she's shocked when his machine survives and counter-attacks. Edit: Like seriously if nothing else the machine's reactor output determines the strength of its armor because that is how Ahab waves work. The Barbatos is more durable and has a higher output than anything else on the battlefield.
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Nov 21, 2015 23:40
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It's not weak, certainly, but their surprise seemed to mostly be that they didn't expect a mobile suit at all, not to mention it's unusual movements.
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Nov 21, 2015 23:40
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ImpAtom posted:... No it isn't. Like you're straight-up incorrect here. Multiple people have discussed how powerful the machine is. It is shown to be more durable and stronger than everything it faces and the only time Mika is outclassed so far is when his opponent out-tactics him and even then she's shocked when his machine survives and counter-attacks. She was clearly laughing at how slow his machine was. That's not being out-tacticed, that's being out-performed. Although presumably her machine was optimized for speed. Anyway, we're not gonna settle this without a quote from the show or something.
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Nov 21, 2015 23:41
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My hot take on this situation is that Gundams in Gundam shows are probably at or near the top-tier in the mobile suit power rankings. Like, in my fantasy Gundam drafts on Gunduel, I'm always taking a Gundam with my #1 pick.
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Nov 21, 2015 23:44
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Clarste posted:Anyway, we're not gonna settle this without a quote from the show or something. Yes we are. You're wrong. The model kit information says otherwise, the show says otherwise, and it makes absolutely no sense considering we know there are two more Gundam-type units coming and it's pretty unlikely they are going to be presented as weak and outdated despite being 300 years old. This isn't even up for debate.
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Nov 21, 2015 23:45
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Clarste posted:They said it had two reactors, that didn't say that made it stronger, faster, or better than modern machines. Like, no one has ever said that. For all the show's implied, two reactors is a stupid design that they stopped using for good reason. The "super spec mega machine" idea could only have come from your own assumptions. The one guy commenting on it only noted the pilot's good reflexes, not the speed of the machine or anything. When Mika was fighting against the lady in the fast suit with cannons, there were at least two points where she expected him to die. When she went in for the kill and got speared, she seemed to be fully expecting that to be the end of it, and then when she crashed him into the asteroid she flew away also expected him to be either disabled or dead. I think those were the only reasons he was able to her - when she was just holding distance and sniping him he appeared to effectively have no recourse. I assume that she knows what it takes to kill most mobile suits, and badly miscalculated what it would take to kill the Gundam. I read the series of events as something like, "It takes about twenty shots to kill a Graze, okay, that's about twenty, I'll get in close and waste him! Wait, he's not dead, what!? And he caught me!? Okay, I'll ram him into an asteroid, that'll destroy any mobile suit! He's still not dead!?" That seems to point to the Barbados being significantly more durable than most suits.
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Nov 21, 2015 23:46
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I won't deny it's keeping up with the modern ones, which is impressive enough on its own, I just don't think the show's made any attempt to portray it as a "super-machine" that is fundamentally better than the others. That actually seems contrary to what the narrative is trying to portray: which is a desperate group of kids holding on by the skin of their teeth.
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Nov 21, 2015 23:47
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ShiroIchida posted:When Mika was fighting against the lady in the fast suit with cannons, there were at least two points where she expected him to die. When she went in for the kill and got speared, she seemed to be fully expecting that to be the end of it, and then when she crashed him into the asteroid she flew away also expected him to be either disabled or dead. I think those were the only reasons he was able to her - when she was just holding distance and sniping him he appeared to effectively have no recourse. She obviously expected him to splat headfirst into the asteroid, whereas he instead stabbed his spear into it to slow his momentum. He didn't just mindlessly tank a hit. The emphasis has always been on Mika's good fighting instincts, rather than the strength of the machine.
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Nov 21, 2015 23:49
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Per the show, the Barbatos has exactly three things going for it: 1) two Ahab reactors instead of one 2) that were built and tuned specifically for it instead of being a single mass-produced reactor model 3) nanolaminate armour that is much stronger than regular MS armour, seemingly about on par with ship armour That's it. The rest is Mika being jacked in directly and having three A-V implants.
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Nov 21, 2015 23:49
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Clarste posted:I won't deny it's keeping up with the modern ones, which is impressive enough on its own, I just don't think the show's made any attempt to portray it as a "super-machine" that is fundamentally better than the others. That actually seems contrary to what the narrative is trying to portray: which is a desperate group of kids holding on by the skin of their teeth. It's just like Mikazuki - battered and untested, but with incredible potential that we've already seen previews of. Its problems are that it's not fully-repaired (hence the hype around the fourth form) and its pilot doesn't know how to get the best out of its huge power output.
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Nov 21, 2015 23:51
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Clarste posted:, I just don't think the show's made any attempt to portray it as a "super-machine" that is fundamentally better than the others. Again, the two reactors thing is explicitly and unarguably a major advantage no other suit has. The way that its armor works means that the stronger the Ahab reactor powering it the more durable it is. That is alongside the actual improved output that having two reactors instead of one has. The machine is explicitly not functioning at its Calamity War specs but when it does (which is what 4th Form is) that is going to be an upgrade, not a downgrade. Clarste posted:That actually seems contrary to what the narrative is trying to portray: which is a desperate group of kids holding on by the skin of their teeth. Having a single advantage doesn't mean you're not still holding on by the skin of your teeth. Lemon Curdistan posted:3) nanolaminate armour that is much stronger than regular MS armour, seemingly about on par with ship armour Actually it's literally the same as ship armor. Ships in the IBO setting are borderline invincible to most conventional damage because they have large-scale Ahab reactors that prevent that. That is why boarding a ship is actually a completely valid tactic because they can't defend the insides.
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Nov 21, 2015 23:51
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In what universe is two reactors always better than one? Is three reactors even better? Is a fighter jet with 8 engines the pinnacle of jet technology? I mean, presumably there's a reason they don't just do that all the time. Chocolate Man geeking out over it felt more like someone geeking out over WW2 planes than actually being impressed.
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Nov 21, 2015 23:54
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Clarste posted:In what universe is two reactors always better than one? Is three reactors even better? Is a fighter jet with 8 engines the pinnacle of jet technology? In a mecha show universe.
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Nov 21, 2015 23:55
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Well, that's why I think you're letting your assumptions bias you. The show has never implied that two reactors made it a super-machine.
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Nov 21, 2015 23:56
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Clarste posted:Well, that's why I think you're letting your assumptions bias you. The show has never implied that two reactors made it a super-machine. The show discusses the double reactors as an advantage and the model kit and out-of-show information all corroborates it. You are wrong. It also makes no sense at all from a writing perspective. "There are 72 legendary machines called Gundam but they're all actually really crappy and people discussing how machines called Gundam show up at prominent points in history are just imagining things." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Nov 22, 2015 |
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Nov 21, 2015 23:59
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Can we please not get into a slap-fight about this. Thanks.
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Nov 22, 2015 00:00
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ImpAtom posted:The show discusses the double reactors as an advantage and the model kit and out-of-show information all corroborates it. You are wrong. Showing up at prominent points in history doesn't even imply "a super awesome machine." Which is my whole point: you're applying pre-existing assumptions about what a Gundam is to something the show hasn't clarified. And even if two reactors do output more raw power, that doesn't mean the machine's overall better either.
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Nov 22, 2015 00:06
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It might not be super powerful now, but once it gets a katana it will be unstoppable and destroy enemy machines with the vacuum generated by drawing its sword.
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Nov 22, 2015 00:09
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Clarste posted:Showing up at prominent points in history doesn't even imply "a super awesome machine." It is specifically described in-show as "A mobile suit with the power to destroy the Earth." Clarste posted:And even if two reactors do output more raw power, that doesn't mean the machine's overall better either. In this setting it means the show has a greater power output potential and unarguably better armor. The Barbatos itself is not functioning at full potential right now which is its major limiting factor.
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Nov 22, 2015 00:12
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Just rewatched Episode Two. Apart from the crazy acrobatics the Barbatos pulls, which indicate its strength and speed compared to the more sedately-moving Grazes (plus the effortless way it wields that huge mace), Crank specifically says 'I'm losing by strength!' as the Barbatos shoves him back when they lock blades. Yep, those twin reactors do indeed seem to do something.
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Nov 22, 2015 00:16
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Even the good armor isn't enough to stop melee weapons though. Mostly it was a gimmick in episode 5 to prevent him from being sniped (except for the weak point). Didn't seem to help him all that much in 7, ie: he was actually taking damage. We were supposed to believe that it was possible for him lose, not that his super-armor would make him invincible. I'm only arguing that it's not a "super-machine", not that it's completely useless. 108 Gundams was enough to blow up the moon. Not just one. Edit: Crazy acrobatics are pilot skill. They're constantly freaking out about how he moves in ways they don't expect (because of the AV system). Losing by strength... okay sure.
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Nov 22, 2015 00:19
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Clarste posted:Even the good armor isn't enough to stop melee weapons though. Mostly it was a gimmick in episode 5 to prevent him from being sniped (except for the weak point). Didn't seem to help him all that much in 7, ie: he was actually taking damage. We were supposed to believe that it was possible for him lose, not that his super-armor would make him invincible. I'm only arguing that it's not a "super-machine", not that it's completely useless. OK, this is just getting silly. You're shifting your goalposts pretty hard to continue this dumb argument.
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Nov 22, 2015 00:21
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Clarste posted:Even the good armor isn't enough to stop melee weapons though. Mostly it was a gimmick in episode 5 to prevent him from being sniped (except for the weak point). Didn't seem to help him all that much in 7, ie: he was actually taking damage. We were supposed to believe that it was possible for him lose, not that his super-armor would make him invincible. I'm only arguing that it's not a "super-machine", not that it's completely useless.. The reason he is able to take as many hits as he does is because his armor is exceptionally good. That doesn't mean he is invincible but you don't have to be invincible for your suit to still be extremely goddamn good for the setting., The original Gundam has extremely powerful armor too and it could still take damage. Like even in Episode 7 he gets hit dead-on repeatedly and his opponent clearly thinks he's defeated and then the smoke clears and he's survived the attack and counterattacked. That isn't even a case of "Mika piloting well" like the asteroid thing, it's just the power of his mobile suit.
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Nov 22, 2015 00:22
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Mika is special and therefore his mobile suit is special
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Nov 22, 2015 00:23
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Didn't I already say it's impressive that it's keeping up with modern machines? What exactly is your point? My point is just that the show wants us to feel that Mika is vulnerable, and therefore isn't portraying the Gundam as a super-machine. He has armor, but it's not perfect. It would be simple to have a scene of weapons bouncing off of him (in fact, they did exactly this with long range bullets in 5), but they haven't. Episode 7 showed him as vulnerable but tenacious. Not once has anyone expressed the slightest bit of fear at being up against a "legendary Gundam". It's not something they're impressed by. I don't care what the toy kit says its specs are, all I can about is what the narrative tells. And it doesn't tell us to be impressed by this ultra high-spec machine. It tells us to be impressed by Mika's excellent reflexes and slightly terrified of the AV system that allows untrained kids to fight like that in a war machine. No one has ever said "thank goodness we stumbled on this super-weapon", they've only said "now that we've got a mobile suit we can fight back!" They don't treat the Graze they captured as a second tier machine, only its pilot as a second tier pilot. The Barbatos is primarily and almost entirely an expression of Mika's power.
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Nov 22, 2015 00:28
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Clarste posted:My point is just that the show wants us to feel that Mika is vulnerable, and therefore isn't portraying the Gundam as a super-machine. Why exactly are these two things different in your mind? A protagonist can have an extremely powerful machine and still be in danger and vulnerable. That's pretty much mecha shows in a nutshell. Even Mazinger Z is endangered and rendered vulnerable. Clarste posted:And it doesn't tell us to be impressed by this ultra high-spec machine. When the narrative pauses to have characters talk about a machine powerful enough to be a massive threat and whose name is literally legendary, yes, it is expecting you to be impressed by it. Like even if you're arguing "they mean all the Gundams together were powerful enough to destroy the Earth" that still means fewer than 100 mobile suits were capable of being a threat to the entire world. The mere fact you're going "I don't care if something says I'm wrong, I'm right" kind of underlines that you're more interested in discussing what you think the show should be, not what the show is. Here is it overpowering a Graze with ease, as mentioned above.  ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Nov 22, 2015 |
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Nov 22, 2015 00:30
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100 suits, in a setting where sending 3 to the same place is considered a conspicuous overuse of resources for an interplanetary peacekeeping organization. Chocolate Man also never said anything about the Gundams being a threat, only that they were historically interesting. Like I said, the impression I got was of someone geeking out over WW2 hardware. Anyway, maybe my scant familiarity with the Gundam franchising is affecting my perspective, but when I hear "super-machine" I think of all those Gundams that blow up dozens of fodder machines in a single salvo, and are completely untouchable except by other Gundams or equivalent. Here, three Grazes is meant to be a plausible threat that he has to struggle to survive (not even win, survive) which seems like a completely different scope. Is "super-machine" a technical term I'm not familiar with?
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Nov 22, 2015 00:39
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Clarste posted:Here, three Grazes is meant to be a plausible threat that he has to struggle to survive (not even win, survive) which seems like a completely different scope. That is completely average and normal for Gundam. There are super-Gundams for certain but by and large Gundams are defined as powerful machines for their setting whose power exists to help their novice pilots survive difficult battles while they gain experience and skill. The original Gundam was absolutely a super-power machine for its setting with characters repeatedly exclaiming in surprise at what it could do. It was also weak enough that a small handful of Zakus or even just one or two higher-spec machines like a Gouf could reasonably destroy it without backup.
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Nov 22, 2015 00:44
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Okay then, maybe I completely misunderstood the original post then. I just don't think "super-machine" has the right connotation when said super-Gundams actually exist to be compared to.
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Nov 22, 2015 00:49
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The original gundam was also outdated by the end of the show unlike most modern gundam shows.
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Nov 22, 2015 00:49
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BlitzBlast posted:I could basically say the same thing to this: You can probably find a way to disagree in the future that doesn't sound like you're talking in a mocking voice out loud when conveying your opponent's presumed thought process.
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Nov 22, 2015 00:51
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Clarste posted:Okay then, maybe I completely misunderstood the original post then. I just don't think "super-machine" has the right connotation when said super-Gundams actually exist to be compared to. It is very possible this entire argument may have been over a misunderstanding! Which is quite silly if so, sorry.
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Nov 22, 2015 00:59
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paragon1 posted:Biscuit is gonna score some sweet Jovian rear end. Well of course, he does have a delicious name after all(that line really should be the new thread title)
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Nov 22, 2015 01:28
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Jfc chill the gently caress out thread
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