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Tatum Girlparts posted:I'd love to know how indie elfgame makers have the ability to 'push' for anything heavily. Oh and this too. Even though on this forum where people have more eclectic tastes than the general RPG-playing public it would seem that everyone plays Fate and PbtA games, just by looking at the player and GM statistics of a site like Roll20 shows you that the big players in RPGs are like a hundred different flavors of D&D and also the WH40k RPGs I guess.
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Oct 31, 2015 19:30
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The longer it takes to stat out opposition in a given system, the more incentive it gives to railroad the players. IMO you can be as crunchy as you like, as long as the GM can respond quickly and incrementally to the impulses of the table.
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Oct 31, 2015 19:33
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In a lot of ways, it's an overhead problem: you can chew through a dozen lovely rules-light games in the time you can (maybe) chew through one lovely rules-heavy game. It's also colored by a sizeable PBP-focused and time-limited slant around here, where minimizing overhead is practically the name of the game. Much easier to be in a dozen games when they all creep along at the pace of two months to a session's worth, much easier to run when you only need the time to make a post without prep work. It does nothing for me, but I see the appeal.
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Oct 31, 2015 19:33
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I'm not against rules heavy games, but those rules have to have purpose and actually serve the needs of play. Raise your hand if you've used the rules for berms in Pathfinder, or the rules for surviving childbirth in Exalted 2nd edition, designed a train using GURPS Vehicles 2nd edition, or made a Housekeeping check in Rifts Ultimate Edition. A lot of games are just gummed up with useless poo poo because they try and simulate everything down to your potential wage as a dock porter even when they're just supposed to be about stabbing dragons and taking their poo poo. The thing is that a lot of rules-heavy games are just heavy because they try and do everything. Pathfinder is a great example because they expect you to care about proper flagstones vs. uneven flagstones or rubble (heavy) vs. rubble (light) and oh my gently caress who gives a loving gently caress. I love crunchy games that are well-thought out, but good game design is rare in general. For the most part, RPG game design relies on cargo cult principles, and the bigger you make a system... it may not fall harder, but it has a lot more chances to.
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Oct 31, 2015 19:34
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Yea the tabletop population as a whole is still 100% in the D&D is king mindset with splatterings of Shadow Run and Dark Heresy and all. FATE is still met with mostly 'oh right the weird dice thing that isn't the Star Wars game' in most places. Hence my confusion at the idea of the dudes who have to kickstart their games and all to get them made at all having the ability to 'push' the hobby anywhere. It's kinda like saying that dude with the hotdog stand sure is pushing the food industry to Chicago style hot dogs. He's selling them, and there may well be a lot of people going 'yea man Chicago hot dogs rule' and there are even other stands that offer those kinds of hot dogs to get some of that market, but it's not like Gordon Ramsay's going to do an all Chicago hot dog special or something any time soon.
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Oct 31, 2015 19:34
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I'm not against rules heavy games, but those rules have to have purpose and actually serve the needs of play. Raise your hand if you've used the rules for berms in Pathfinder, or the rules for surviving childbirth in Exalted 2nd edition, designed a train using GURPS Vehicles 2nd edition, or made a Housekeeping check in Rifts Ultimate Edition. A lot of games are just gummed up with useless poo poo because they try and simulate everything down to your potential wage as a dock porter even when they're just supposed to be about stabbing dragons and taking their poo poo. The thing is that a lot of rules-heavy games are just heavy because they try and do everything. Pathfinder is a great example because they expect you to care about proper flagstones vs. uneven flagstones or rubble (heavy) vs. rubble (light) and oh my gently caress who gives a loving gently caress. I love crunchy games that are well-thought out, but good game design is rare in general. For the most part, RPG game design relies on cargo cult principles, and the bigger you make a system... it may not fall harder, but it has a lot more chances to. I've used those Pathfinder rules. But I use them to create combat hazards like you would more commonly see in 4e. I use heavy versus light rubble to keep the game internally consistent, however.
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Oct 31, 2015 19:38
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I don't think there's just rules light and rules heavy games. There's games in between, games that are heavy in one area and light in another, etc.Tatum Girlparts posted:Yea the tabletop population as a whole is still 100% in the D&D is king mindset with splatterings of Shadow Run and Dark Heresy and all. FATE is still met with mostly 'oh right the weird dice thing that isn't the Star Wars game' in most places. Hence my confusion at the idea of the dudes who have to kickstart their games and all to get them made at all having the ability to 'push' the hobby anywhere. It's kinda like saying that dude with the hotdog stand sure is pushing the food industry to Chicago style hot dogs. He's selling them, and there may well be a lot of people going 'yea man Chicago hot dogs rule' and there are even other stands that offer those kinds of hot dogs to get some of that market, but it's not like Gordon Ramsay's going to do an all Chicago hot dog special or something any time soon. Now you've done it. Now people are going to get bogged down in arguing about this metaphor and how actually, the whole hobby is hot dog stands.
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Oct 31, 2015 19:41
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I'm not against rules heavy games, but those rules have to have purpose and actually serve the needs of play. Raise your hand if you've used the rules for berms in Pathfinder, or the rules for surviving childbirth in Exalted 2nd edition, designed a train using GURPS Vehicles 2nd edition, or made a Housekeeping check in Rifts Ultimate Edition. A lot of games are just gummed up with useless poo poo because they try and simulate everything down to your potential wage as a dock porter even when they're just supposed to be about stabbing dragons and taking their poo poo. The thing is that a lot of rules-heavy games are just heavy because they try and do everything. Pathfinder is a great example because they expect you to care about proper flagstones vs. uneven flagstones or rubble (heavy) vs. rubble (light) and oh my gently caress who gives a loving gently caress. I love crunchy games that are well-thought out, but good game design is rare in general. For the most part, RPG game design relies on cargo cult principles, and the bigger you make a system... it may not fall harder, but it has a lot more chances to. I think this is my stance on it too. My group does like crunch, we play fuckin Traveller for crying out loud, but fiddly stuff has to actually have a purpose to exist. Bunch of spergy rules about light speed travel and signal rotation and poo poo in a space ship game designed to emulate the whole 'it's basically age of sail ships in zero g' kind of sci fi? Sure, we're good there, this is the good kind of dense bullshit I can get into. Rules about giving birth in a game about being a near divine kung fu warrior? Obsessively tracking swim speed modifiers in a game about killing Orcs and taking shiny things? Genuinely expecting me to think it matters if my swashbuckling fantasy heroes are fighting on sturdy cobblestones or loose ones? Nah, that's just book padding at that point.
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Oct 31, 2015 19:45
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I'm not against rules heavy games, but those rules have to have purpose and actually serve the needs of play. Raise your hand if you've used the rules for berms in Pathfinder quote:A common defensive structure, a berm is a low, earthen wall that slows movement and provides a measure of cover. Put a berm on the map by drawing two adjacent rows of steep slope (described in Hills Terrain), with the edges of the berm on the downhill side. Thus, a character crossing a 2-square berm will travel uphill for 1 square, then downhill for 1 square. Two square berms provide cover as low walls for anyone standing behind them. Larger berms provide the low wall benefit for anyone standing 1 square downhill from the top of the berm.
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Oct 31, 2015 20:00
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The Crotch posted:I ran a two god drat year Pathfinder campaign (got super burned out on the system by the end) and I thought you were exaggerating for effect. But it turns out... Very few people bother with the terrain rules- Arivia posted:I've used those Pathfinder rules. But I use them to create combat hazards like you would more commonly see in 4e. I use heavy versus light rubble to keep the game internally consistent, however. - but there are exceptions!
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Oct 31, 2015 20:04
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They serve different purposes. The more crunch, the more granularity, in theory at least, which allows for a wider array and higher focus on character choices and upgrades. On the other hand, the more crunch, the more distraction you get from the core idea and higher chance of useless graft. Rules lite games are usually typecast as being more "narrative" because they, typically, cut straight to the point. To go off the Shadowrun examples, if you wanted to play it with a focus purely on the heist aspect, I'd say Leverage is right up your alley. It has a single minded goal and goes straight for it. With FATE games you rarely if ever (in my experience) see characters upgrading even though it's technically in the rules, simply because that's not really the point or draw of the game. PbtA has character upgrading but it's typically to expand character influence spheres rather then make them simply "better." Now, with bog standard Shadowrun, there's a dozen or more ways to make the same sorta beatstick character because of the heavy crunch, and having all those options is satisfying, but there's also several dozen ways to gently caress up at making a beatstick character. Character upgrading isn't just a big deal, it's at least partially the draw to the game. You can end up with characters with wildly different focuses, which again can be an upside or a downside. Different tools for different situations.
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Oct 31, 2015 21:03
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Terrible Opinions posted:So is there any particular reason people who enjoy rules lite games seem to consistently come from the position that crunch heavy games are inherently bad and lesser? In my experience its pretty much the opposite. Crunch havers consistently poo poo on peeps who dig lighter games. See also: the past couple pages of this very thread.
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Oct 31, 2015 21:45
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Error 404 posted:In my experience its pretty much the opposite. Crunch havers consistently poo poo on peeps who dig lighter games. lol
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Oct 31, 2015 21:48
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Error 404 posted:In my experience its pretty much the opposite. Crunch havers consistently poo poo on peeps who dig lighter games. A  not even a mother would love.
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Oct 31, 2015 21:54
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Error 404 posted:In my experience its pretty much the opposite. Crunch havers consistently poo poo on peeps who dig lighter games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1qXQRpF08E
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Oct 31, 2015 21:59
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Oct 31, 2015 22:06
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Oct 31, 2015 22:09
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Oct 31, 2015 22:24
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Error 404 posted:In my experience its pretty much the opposite. Crunch havers consistently poo poo on peeps who dig lighter games. You must have been reading a different thread than me. Heck on this forum most conversations about crunch heavy systems are either just a circlejerk about how terrible they are or back and forth shitposting with Effectronica.
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Oct 31, 2015 22:30
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I think my best example of the good ideas between fluff vs crunch will be Star Wars Edge of the Empire and its related games vs Star Wars D6. Both are very good games, but while EotE will say poo poo like 'look just you decide if the smuggler needs to ROLL for hiding his cargo or if he's good enough and his ship is well enough equipped for it to be fine' D6 has stats for every smuggling ship that was shown in the movies and EU (pre-prequels I think? I don't think they ever had any ability to do a prequel series, which in itself is a point for D6) and the exact bonuses what parts got you. Like, I own The Death Star Technical Manual, it's a D6 book that explains exactly how many TIEs the death star can hold, talks about the different difficulties in hacking a door in the residential area vs the command area because of course those locks would be different, and all this spergy fiddly poo poo that works extremely well for the setting because it all plays into this overall concept that, for example, the Death Star is a loving TERRIFYING thing. It has the rules there because if your party is in The Death Star they are in the heart of the Empire's power ans yea, they have exactly 10k TIEs ready to scramble to gently caress you up, which makes not only a good reference for 'you guys probably can't handle a Death Star run' but also makes for a really badass game where your party is fleeing thousands of TIEs after hacking a command console that, while not having the critical info like 'yo don't let anyone shoot down this one hole for some reason it kills us all?', was still important troop movement and thus highly protected because why wouldn't it be? In case it's not clear that's using an actual adventure my group did as inspiration. We nearly got wrecked stealing super basic troop deployment plans and it happened because the DM had ready to access poo poo like 'the Death Star holds this many storm troopers so yes you can have a platoon chasing you and still run into a platoon waiting for you' and all. Crunch isn't NEEDED for a game beyond the base materials (in my opinion, obv) but it can add a lot, as long as it's kept within the focus of the game as a whole. My party never will need to know the assorted modifiers for a Swim check beyond basic 'is the water rough and are you in armor' even if we're in Naboo loving with Gungans because why would we gently caress with that level of fiddly poo poo. We can, however, use this weird super detailed book JUST about The Death Star that includes emails sent by Tarkin before he got promoted to Grand Moff and shows the implementation of The Tarkin Doctrine because why wouldn't it, that's a cool thing that provides a story hook with real rules.
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Oct 31, 2015 22:54
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Let's spend less time getting angry about elf games and more time getting ready for what was probably the first true role playing experience of our formative years... Halloween! When I was three years old, my first character was a lion. Rawr! Now I'm going as The Glam Rock Archangel of Decadence. I'd say I leveled up quite nicely. Simian_Prime fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Oct 31, 2015 |
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Oct 31, 2015 22:55
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The lion sounds less lame tbh
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Oct 31, 2015 22:58
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Elfgames posted:The lion sounds less lame tbh
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Oct 31, 2015 22:59
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Y'all just jealous because you don't have the figure to pull off a silver spandex bodysuit.
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Oct 31, 2015 23:02
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This Halloween I'm going as a guy who's just sitting around his apartment by himself playing video games. e: Simian_Prime posted:Y'all just jealous because you don't have the figure to pull off a silver spandex bodysuit.
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Oct 31, 2015 23:03
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Simian_Prime posted:Y'all just jealous because you don't have the figure to pull off a silver spandex bodysuit. Actually I don't think you have either.
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Oct 31, 2015 23:04
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My very first D&D character when I was like 5 was Dwarf the DwarfSimian_Prime posted:Y'all just jealous because you don't have the figure to pull off a silver spandex bodysuit. Well yea
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Oct 31, 2015 23:05
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how could you burn out on a rule system? (especially something like pathfinder)
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Oct 31, 2015 23:05
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Terrible Opinions posted:You must have been reading a different thread than me. Heck on this forum most conversations about crunch heavy systems are either just a circlejerk about how terrible they are or back and forth shitposting with Effectronica. Most conversations about crunch-heavy systems exist in their own megathreads away from the white noise of the chat thread. There are threads for every era of D&D, GURPS, Shadowrun, Exalted, Warhammer 40K, BRP/Call of Cthulhu, L5R, and Palladium/Rifts all in the first four pages of this forum.
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Oct 31, 2015 23:08
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Yea I find it hard to believe 'most of the conversation' about, say, GURPS, is poo poo talking it because aside from some 'lol remember Gurps Vehicles' jokes it has its own thread and it still is regarded well in general as 'yea if you want a crunch filled game, this is a good one'. Same with D&D and others. Like, Shadowrun has its own thread where it's 99% actual Shadowrun talk, I find it hard to believe there's a more fiddly system out there that's thread is all poo poo talking and 'gently caress this game it's for assholes'.
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Oct 31, 2015 23:11
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Unrelated to the discussion on crunch heavy systems versus rules light systems (both are good, but also bad) I've been running Astraterra, a pretty cool kids' RPG, for a bunch of kids at the school I work at in after-school activities. Last Friday's session was pretty cool. One of the kids is playing a character of the Doctor class, which is the game's main science and knowledge type of character, and her character has a book about rocks and caves. She was trying to find some information on the cave the characters were exploring in her book, and against all odds failed her roll. After the game she came to me "Hey, how about instead of me not finding the information in the book, I find that the page which was supposed to have the information on that cave has been torn off?" We talked this through with the other kids and decided that, yeah, it'd be pretty cool if the page had been stolen by, say, sky pirates, because not only did that page contain information relevant to the cave the characters were exploring it also revealed the location of some awesome treasure hidden somewhere. So, yeah, that was cool. Kids are pretty great at RPGs. (Although most of our time is spent with the kids shopping for new equipment and pets after successful adventures. Almost all of the characters in the group have two pets apiece already, because who doesn't want a pet?)
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Oct 31, 2015 23:29
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This Halloween I'm going as a member of the proletariat, and I'll be wearing this costume for upwards of a week before returning to my natural NEET outfit. Booyaka!
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Oct 31, 2015 23:29
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Evil Mastermind posted:This Halloween I'm going as a guy who's just sitting around his apartment by himself playing video games.  
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Oct 31, 2015 23:33
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Ratpick posted:crunch heavy systems versus rules light systems (both are good, but also bad) This
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Oct 31, 2015 23:58
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Error 404 posted:This Do you have any original thought process?
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Nov 1, 2015 00:18
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Do you have any original thought process?
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Nov 1, 2015 00:29
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Nov 1, 2015 00:58
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And then the ghost stepped into the light, and I saw to my horror that the chains that shackled its body were made of tiny, delicately forged links made of the word "This". "Little by little I made these in life," the ghost rasped, "and now I will bear them for eternity."
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Nov 1, 2015 01:04
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moderately metal imo
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Nov 1, 2015 01:42
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Effectronica posted:And then the ghost stepped into the light, and I saw to my horror that the chains that shackled its body were made of tiny, delicately forged links made of the word "This". "Little by little I made these in life," the ghost rasped, "and now I will bear them for eternity." this
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Nov 1, 2015 01:49
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