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Let's talk ECUs and Wiring Harnesses, since having a carburetor is only sexy when you have a can of starter fluid laying in the passenger foot well. ECU BASICS: What are we talking about? Modern fuel injection is a very computerized and mathematical process, taking multiple inputs from various sensors to make decisions on the fly via fuel mapping about how your injectors will operate. ECU consists of a Microcontoller reading various digital and analog inputs that are used to drive various outputs either directly or through relays/drivers. Microcontroller - Usually a MIPS CPU of some sort or system on chip setup reading from either embedded or off chip flash for program storage. Aftermarket ECUs include - Megasquirt/Microsquirt (Most Common Standalone ECU): http://www.msextra.com/ - Arduino / Propeller / Other Various Hobbyist Microcontollers: https://www.arduino.cc/ - rusEFI: http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page - Speeduino (See: Arduino): http://speeduino.com/ (Mafoose): Looks like you're mostly talking about the less expensive stuff, so there is also: VEMS http://www.vems.us/ Haltech http://www.haltech.com/ SDS http://www.sdsefi.com/ Some Texas Redneck Holley: https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/ AEM: http://www.aemelectronics.com/?q=products/programmable-engine-management-systems Mungtor Electromotive: https://electromotive.com/product-category/tec-engine-management-systems-restricted/ (List to be updated) Drivers/Relays Naturally, Microcontrollers are generally not very capable of driving some of the various devices by themselves and must use relays/drivers to segregate themselves from higher draw devices they intend to operate like fuel injectors or fuel pumps. Generally, things like Megasquirt have built in injector drivers that allow you to drive either a batch (all at once) or individual injectors through a fuse to protect the ECU. Megasquirt currently supports up to 8 individual injectors on the more higher end boards, but can drive a larger number of injectors fired in batch. There are a couple different ways to do this, some purpose made chips that can do it, etc. You can do it via a Darlington Pair: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlington_transistor There are MOSFET Drivers made to do this: http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/MC34152-D.PDF Or purpose made drivers: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm1949.pdf The different between the relay and the transistor is, at the heart of it, response time. A transistor can flip from on/off within microseconds, while a relay, being electromechanical, requires time to switch on/off. Relays are therefore not very useful in a fuel injection system outside of triggering the fuel pump or other non-cycling items. Most of these drivers also require very little trigger voltage (5v, which is what an Arduino will provde) to drive a much higher current load (12v for the injector) A good overview: https://developer.mbed.org/users/4180_1/notebook/relays1/ Turbo/Supercharger Boost Controllers (Thread to be updated soon) Example of Megasquirt Wiring Harness for BMW  Guys, I am by NO MEANS an expert. Feel free to contribute CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Oct 12, 2015 |
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Oct 5, 2015 16:07
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(Post Reserved for Graphics and Further Updates)
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Oct 5, 2015 16:08
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mmmmmmf  that wiring diagram is getting me in the hot-n-bothereds.
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Oct 5, 2015 16:22
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scuz posted:mmmmmmf I'll post up the one I did for my Audi and my Megasquirt 1 v3.0 when I get home, its on my development laptop that I keep in the garage. We'll also cover proper wiring gauges for wiring harness build outs in here, because I've seen more than one home made harness burst into flames due to using the wrong gauge.
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Oct 5, 2015 16:24
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Super excited to mega-lurk this thread. Any ideas on some small projects for getting your feet wet?
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Oct 5, 2015 16:24
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Adiabatic posted:Super excited to mega-lurk this thread. Any ideas on some small projects for getting your feet wet? A simple Arduino powered single fuel injector for a leaf blower or weed whacker might be a good start, let you refine your control and electronics skills a bit before jumping up to 4/6/8 cylinder motors.  So, you'd be using the 5V signal from the Arduino to issue a 'Command' to the transistor there to actuate the 12v powered injector solenoid. Just a word of warning, injectors must be driven via a driver, a relay will not work. Some good things to think about with Arduino based ECUs: http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=84206.25;wap2 CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Oct 5, 2015 |
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Oct 5, 2015 16:28
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So I should mega squirt my snow blower. Down for that!
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Oct 5, 2015 16:43
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Elephanthead posted:So I should mega squirt my snow blower. Down for that! When in doubt: http://hackaday.com/2011/08/30/engine-hacks-adding-fuel-injection-to-a-riding-lawnmower/
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Oct 5, 2015 16:47
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Unngh, I love me some oscilloscope action on injectors. What is everyone's go to Fluke?
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Oct 5, 2015 16:48
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El Jebus posted:Unngh, I love me some oscilloscope action on injectors. What is everyone's go to Fluke? I actually use an old Tectronix 465 Dual Channel 20Mhz scope.  Cat powered. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Oct 5, 2015 |
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Oct 5, 2015 16:56
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So I'm basically self-taught with electronics, and I only really learned the parts that are immediately useful to me. How is a transistor different from a relay? Can I really drive an injector right off an Arduino 5V pin with a transistor? How is an injector driver different from a relay or a fet or a transistor? Seat Safety Switch fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Oct 5, 2015 |
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Oct 5, 2015 17:38
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Seat Safety Switch posted:So I'm basically self-taught with electronics, and I only really learned the parts that are immediately useful to me. There are a couple different ways to do this, some purpose made chips that can do it, etc. You can do it via a Darlington Pair: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlington_transistor There are MOSFET Drivers made to do this: http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/MC34152-D.PDF Or purpose made drivers: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm1949.pdf The different between the relay and the transistor is, at the heart of it, response time. A transistor can flip from on/off within microseconds, while a transistor, being electromechanical, requires time to switch on/off and is life limited in how many times it can do so. Most of these drivers also require very little trigger voltage (5v, which is what an Arduino will provde) to drive a much higher current load (12v for the injector) A good overview: https://developer.mbed.org/users/4180_1/notebook/relays1/ E: Added this to the OP. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Oct 5, 2015 |
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Oct 5, 2015 17:46
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I think that a single cylinder application would be a good starting point. For example, on something like my Enfield, a simple RPM/throttle map could be more efficient and tunable than the stock carburetor, and you don't have to mess with the more expensive sensors. Plus, you always have the option of going more advanced with a MAF, IACV, vacuum gauge, etc. From what I understand, the most basic megasquirt style setups have three main engine components/sensors: cam position sensor, throttle plate/intake (with TPS), and fuel injector manifold (sometimes integrated with the throttle plate for small engine/motorcycle style setups). Is this correct Queen_Combat fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Oct 5, 2015 |
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Oct 5, 2015 18:50
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Geirskogul posted:From what I understand, the most basic megasquirt style setups have three main engine components/sensors: cam position sensor, throttle plate/intake (with TPS), and fuel injector manifold (sometimes integrated with the throttle plate for small engine/motorcycle style setups). Is this correct Pretty much. Cam position can be determined by distributor on a car, you need throttle plate position information, and the fuel injector itself. Most of the other components can be bypassed or ignored.
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Oct 5, 2015 18:56
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CommieGIR posted:Aftermarket ECUs include Looks like you're mostly talking about the less expensive stuff, so there is also: VEMS http://www.vems.us/ Haltech http://www.haltech.com/ SDS http://www.sdsefi.com/ quote:Generally, things like Megasquirt have built in injector drivers that allow you to drive either a batch (all at once) or individual injectors through a fuse to protect the ECU. Megasquirt currently supports up to 8 individual injectors on the more higher end boards, but can drive a larger number of injectors fired in batch. Wording is a little funky here. MS just grounds the injectors to drive them, you can run all of your injectors through 1 fuse. The fuse is not really for MS's protection. I've seen injector drivers fail and have an injectors stick on, hydrolocking a motor, it's just good practice to avoid electrical fires. v2.2 and v3.x boards support either 6-8 high-z injectors PER driver (I know at least 6, I've done staged on a 6cyl), but it will be batch or alternating, not sequential. Microsquirt can do 4 high-z per driver (8 total). You can run low-z injectors using a PWM driver or a peak and hold add on board, but that's unnecessary since most people lack the equipment to figure out precise opening times and opening current. It's easier to just add a resistor in line with each injector, effectively making them high-z in the MS's eyes. There are expansion boards (or roll your own) for v2.2 and v3.x boards alloying 8 cylinder sequential. Tuning sequential injection is where the problem lies. Most people don't want to run (X*cylinder) o2 sensor and even (X*cylinder) egt probes. quote:The different between the relay and the transistor is, at the heart of it, response time. A transistor can flip from on/off within microseconds, while a Geirskogul posted:I think that a single cylinder application would be a good starting point. For example, on something like my Enfield, a simple RPM/throttle map could be more efficient and tunable than the stock carburetor, and you don't have to mess with the more expensive sensors. Plus, you always have the option of going more advanced with a MAF, IACV, vacuum gauge, etc. This is why you don't see many efi retrofits on motorcycles. Documentation is very sparse for how the CDI unit gets timing info. MS requires an IAT, regardless of fueling strategy (alpha-n or speed density). CLT is nice because you get warmup enrichments and cold start help. You can run pretty much anything with an RPM signal, CLT, IAT, and a vacuum line. TPS is not required if you run speed density. I usually don't run it on cars unless it has ITBs. MS2 and above let you blend accel enrichments using vacuum and a TPS, it works amazing with ITB cars. I would do a car first, just don't be like me and decide to MS your DD over Christmas break in highschool. I had to ride the bus for a week after I fried the ignition output section due to reading the wiring diagram wrong. Easiest cars to MS are usually pre-obd2 imports. CommieGIR posted:Pretty much. Cam position can be determined by distributor on a car, you need throttle plate position information, and the fuel injector itself. Most of the other components can be bypassed or ignored. Don't forget, none of these systems are for on road use 
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Oct 5, 2015 20:13
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What do you mean "fuel only setup"?
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Oct 5, 2015 20:36
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Depending on how the ignition system is triggered, you could leave it intact, and have it supply the RPM signal to your ECU, either through the negative side of the coil, or maybe some other part. That way you only have control over the fueling, not ignition timing. This was common back in the day when megasquirting old carb'd cars that didn't have a good way to get an RPM signal from.
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Oct 5, 2015 20:43
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So, you get the benefits of removing anything related to carburetion, you get to leave the (probably adequate) ignition system intact, and you get some form of tuneability in regards to fuel. That means you can do other small upgrades like head work, and instead of having to re-jet you can just mess with a fuel map. A lot of the CDI systems I have seen re: motorcycles between 1980 to 2005 or so seem to be non-modifiable black boxes, so you're still limited to the stock ignition, but on the plus side you don't have to mess with timing rings / crank pickups, right? That seems like the best of both worlds in regards to effort put in vs reliability in the result. I mean, you still have to get an injector of the appropriate volume (are there single injector/pump kits?), a pump, a new intake / throttle body (or heavily modified sacrificial carb?) and a fair bit of bodging, but if you're trying to rescue something where certain fuel parts are $NLA then I don't see why not, right? Seems like you could use the intake air temp to also bypass any type of choke bullshit and maybe end up with a bike/vehicle that starts first time every time.
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Oct 5, 2015 21:15
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mafoose posted:Looks like you're mostly talking about the less expensive stuff, so there is also: Added! mafoose posted:Wording is a little funky here. No, actually Megasquirt uses FETs as Injector drivers. They are still 'driven' the Microcontroller would be unable to handle the injectors directly. As for the distributor timing, what I meant was: You can patch the ECU into the distributor hall effect/opto sensor and use it for timing. Its not discrete usually, but it gives you rough cam timing. Per Megasquirt: quote:Q2 and Q7, the two IFRIZ34N FETs for injector banks  Thanks for the error checking Mafoose! Added your details! CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Oct 5, 2015 |
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Oct 5, 2015 21:43
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I'm hoping to learn some stuff from this thread because all this poo poo is loving wizardry to me right now. This is my biggest fear for the future LQ swap.
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Oct 5, 2015 22:33
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I really want to MS my GTI, but I'm a retard, so definitely following this.
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Oct 6, 2015 02:00
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Geirskogul posted:So, you get the benefits of removing anything related to carburetion, you get to leave the (probably adequate) ignition system intact, and you get some form of tuneability in regards to fuel. That means you can do other small upgrades like head work, and instead of having to re-jet you can just mess with a fuel map. A lot of the CDI systems I have seen re: motorcycles between 1980 to 2005 or so seem to be non-modifiable black boxes, so you're still limited to the stock ignition, but on the plus side you don't have to mess with timing rings / crank pickups, right? Yep, basically all the "chokes" and "accelerator pumps" are tunable and done in software. What sucks about leaving the ignition system intact is that sometimes it isn't good from the factory. I know that's the case with my old ninja, it likes to eat cdi modules. There are now lots of bikes to cannibalize efi parts from. Most run a combination fuel pump and regulator setup that sits inside the tank. I've heard that some atvs use external pumps which would make retrofits easy. There is also all sorts of induction setups to choose from, some Harley's use a single throttle body and injector, you could also just get a set of itbs from a bike with similar displacement per cylinder, and just use one, or even look at jet skis and snow mobiles. Another issue (that I've not dealt with first hand) is supposedly the lack of available power to run all these things. The original stator meant to charge a battery and run 4 lights might not have the amperage to run the ECU, injector(s), fuel pump, etc on top of it all. CommieGIR posted:No, actually Megasquirt uses FETs as Injector drivers. They are still 'driven' the Microcontroller would be unable to handle the injectors directly. As for the distributor timing, what I meant was: You can patch the ECU into the distributor hall effect/opto sensor and use it for timing. Its not discrete usually, but it gives you rough cam timing. Maybe I don't have the right terminology, but MS "drives" injector outputs by sinking the current. That's why injectors are on a separate fuse (usually 2-4 amps/injector), and why the ms box itself has a 2amp fuse in most diagrams. It doesn't provide the power to the injectors, just completes the circuit. This is also why they are very adamant about the injector power being on a key switched source, which is not the case for many old Nissans. What I was trying to get on with the distributor and the hall or VR sensor, most don't have that. I know your audi does, as does 4 years worth of volvos (1984-1988), but most manufacturers went to crank based trigger wheels and have dummy distributors (if they even have one). Some have a sensor in the distributor for cam sync. A notable exception is Hondas, they kept their rpm pickup in the distributor for a long time, some even have the ignitor built into the distributor.
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Oct 6, 2015 02:03
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I decided to redo all the lights in my 2001 Suzuki Bandit motorcycle with LEDs and replace all the hacked PO wiring while I was there. I ended up designing an arduino nano-based lighting controller. I (coincidentally) am using IRF9Z34 FETs for my switches. I'm driving them with ULN2003A darlington pair ICs. I also bought an actual automotive connector (JAE) to get everything outside the box. I'm using a prepackaged 12V->5V automotive converter since it was about the same price as automotive-rated DC-DC ICs and I didn't have to design the stupid thing. I started this whole thing in earnest a couple of weeks ago, and it's breadboarded and working now. I wired up four Tractor Supply LED tail light/turn signal combos and just let it run through tests all night. Works like a champ. Including everything, I think my BOM is right at $50 now. I'm taking inputs from the hi/lo headlight switch, turn signal switch (left/right/neither=cancel), front brake, rear brake, and horn. My loads are headlight hi beam, lo beam, left and right turn signals, and independent brake lights. There are also two unused inputs and outputs in case I feel like switching a couple more loads. The connector I have is only rated for 3A per pin, so even though I've got 20A per FET, I'm trying to keep loads down to 3A per so I don't have to double up on pins. LEDs help a lot with that. I have the capability to expand in the future; I may implement the ignition/timing computer. After the lights work, I plan on throwing an oscilloscope/datalogger on the TPS/sensor wheel/coil outputs to see what happens with the ignition timing. That's the only computerized bit on the bike as it's carbed. If the the timing bits go fine, I'll probably try to find some TBIs and FI the thing. babyeatingpsychopath fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Oct 6, 2015 |
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Oct 6, 2015 02:31
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iwentdoodie posted:I really want to MS my GTI, but I'm a retard, so definitely following this. This but Scirocco. I am interested in building a data logger as well, which seems like a much more achievable goal with less consequences if I gently caress up.
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Oct 6, 2015 02:38
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I'll be doing a mk2 16v gti as soon as my buddy comes up with the cash. Looks fairly straightforward.
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Oct 6, 2015 02:54
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mafoose posted:I'll be doing a mk2 16v gti as soon as my buddy comes up with the cash. Looks fairly straightforward. Setting it up is fairly straight forward from my understanding. From what I read ages ago you basically need a fuel rail, a TPS switch and redoing the intake. After that its just wiring everything up unless you want to do ignition as well. The issue I have is that unless you then start to tune it its probably no better than running CIS Lambda or CIS-E, and that's where my head starts to explode.
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Oct 6, 2015 03:02
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Hopefully once I get the intake piping, we'll have the 4k Quattro going.
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Oct 6, 2015 03:04
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Yeah the fact that most of the stuff for the scirocco seems to be unobtanium is the biggest barrier to entry for me. Can't remember but maybe you needed a crank position sensor as well which would be another major hurtle for the scirocco. What are my options for making a data logger that will take in RPM reading off a spark plug wire and exhaust gas temperature? If I could get it to store readings as a spreadsheet file of some kind that would be ideal.
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Oct 6, 2015 03:13
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1500quidporsche posted:Setting it up is fairly straight forward from my understanding. No tps needed anymore. Tuning an NA car is fairly simple. A simple timing table can be made by using information that is likely in the service manual. Base timing for idle timing, then max timing for wot at X rpms, then fill in the rest to be a nice curve. Fueling is a walk in the park with a wbo2 and a registered copy of tunerstudio. You use the TS table generator, it asks like when is torque peak, what is the Rev range, etc, and it outputs a guess. You than adjust the table til the car idles. Once the car idles, let it warmup, set the afr targets for VE analyse live (14.5:1 around idle, 15.5-16.0 for cruise, 12.0-12.5:1 for power areas), set the cell change to easy, and start driving. You can smooth the table by hand once it starts to drive ok, up the cell change resistance, and keep driving. After your table is pretty well setup, I do some more hand smoothing and off you go. A typical NA car takes me about an hour of drive time to tune for almost factory like drivability. The annoying parts are the accel enrichments and cold start settings. I usually show the person how to adjust those otherwise I'd have the car for a week. E: Can't you run a later distributor with the rpm hall sensor pickup in it?
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Oct 6, 2015 03:20
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mafoose posted:E: Can't you run a later distributor with the rpm hall sensor pickup in it? I'd have to go back and look, most my info on megasquirt has been gleaned from semi coherent posts on VWVortex. I can't see why you couldn't do that since the 16v engine is practically unchanged from the Scirocco to the Mk2 GTI. It would be a lot easier than a crank position sensor. Also the TPS sensor was like the easiest part, pretty sure you just grabbed it off an automatic Passat with the 16v. It was always redoing the fuel intake that was the pricey and hard to source part.
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Oct 6, 2015 03:28
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Apparently my SA account from eons ago is ancient history, but this seems like a good thread to create a new account for. I started writing an ECU/EFI system about 2.5 years ago with the aim of making something that's actually accessible for your average guy in a shed. It's what turned into Speeduino and much to my own surprise is actually usable. I'm not here to self promote or any rubbish like that (It's a non commercial project anyway), but happy to field any questions if anyone's interested in the internals of such a thing.
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Oct 6, 2015 04:32
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noisymime posted:Apparently my SA account from eons ago is ancient history, but this seems like a good thread to create a new account for. Dude! A member (CommieGIR) just linked to your wiki. I stayed up way too late reading the forums last night. I'm pretty sure I'm going to pick up a couple of boards to assemble. The only thing that worries me about your v.04 board is can that pin header carry enough current for the injectors? I seem to remember those traces are bigger on an MS board, and they use 2 per driver. I've been running and installing MS systems since 2004 in all sorts of cars, but drat does a sub $100 efi sound intriguing! Since the v.04 setup is made to fit in a case, have you considered making a "standardized" connector to offer end plates?
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Oct 6, 2015 04:45
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mafoose posted:Dude! Yeah, the pin header is definitely all good for high-z injectors, officially up to 2 per channel. The injector channels have 2 pins each assigned to them so the current is split between them. The next revision of v0.4 board beefs up some of the traces, but I've tested 3x 12 Ohm injectors on it with a bog standard IDE cable and it was fine (4x injectors burned the trace on the board). That pin header IS a problem for the high current PWM outputs though. I'm thinking that the next version of the board will switch to using a molex connector or something for those. mafoose posted:Since the v.04 setup is made to fit in a case, have you considered making a "standardized" connector to offer end plates?
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Oct 6, 2015 04:59
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That is dope as all hell and I would pay many dollarydoos for a board (or board kit, I'm no stranger to soldering) with a Miata PNP board. The software's the hard part, though. I bought you an avatar. Enjoy 
literally a fish fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Oct 6, 2015 |
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Oct 6, 2015 07:25
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CommieGIR posted:Aftermarket ECUs include Holley offers aftermarket EFI, ranging from a very basic ECU to full on "we're replacing everything related to the intake system". Roadkill dropped an LS7 + Holley EFI into the Crusher Camaro in one episode, and it fired up on the first try (though they did have some serious drivability issues at first due to rushing the tune). https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/ If I remember right, AEM offered one of the earlier aftermarket EFI systems, and they're still selling 3 or 4 different versions of varying complexity today. http://www.aemelectronics.com/?q=products/programmable-engine-management-systems
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Oct 6, 2015 08:10
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literally a fish posted:That is dope as all hell and I would pay many dollarydoos for a board (or board kit, I'm no stranger to soldering) with a Miata PNP board. quote:The software's the hard part, though.  quote:I bought you an avatar. Enjoy
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Oct 6, 2015 11:02
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The relevant car is a friend's 1989 NA6, 430th unit produced for the Australian market according to its VIN. It may be worth offering the kit with or without connectors as I can probably desolder them from a salvaged ECU, if they're so dang expensive.
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Oct 6, 2015 11:32
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noisymime posted:Apparently my SA account from eons ago is ancient history, but this seems like a good thread to create a new account for. I would really like to know more. I have a large cache of Arduinos and would rather go that route.
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Oct 6, 2015 14:24
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CommieGIR posted:I would really like to know more. I have a large cache of Arduinos and would rather go that route. Anything in particular? The project has targeted the Mega 2560 as it relies heavily on the use of the hardware timers in order to control the injection, ignition and custom PWM outputs. I get asked a lot if it can work with other Arduinos and the short answer is that it is possible, but would require a lot of work and would support fewer cylinders due to their being fewer hardware timers on other boards. And yes, I have considered going to an ARM version. The Due is a pain as it has no built in EEPROM and isn't 5v tolerant. The Teensy might work, but it doesn't have enough EEPROM and to be honest, doesn't really allow for anything I can't do already. I'm not yet hitting the HW limits of the 2560, so I wouldn't gain anything by moving to a different CPU anyway. Not sure if that is in anyway what you were thinking, but they tend to be questions that come up a lot.
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Oct 6, 2015 16:28
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noisymime posted:Not sure if that is in anyway what you were thinking, but they tend to be questions that come up a lot. Pretty much, I do have a Mega 2650 and the Intel Galileo. some texas redneck posted:Holley offers aftermarket EFI, ranging from a very basic ECU to full on "we're replacing everything related to the intake system". Roadkill dropped an LS7 + Holley EFI into the Crusher Camaro in one episode, and it fired up on the first try (though they did have some serious drivability issues at first due to rushing the tune). https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/ These have been added, thanks STR!
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Oct 6, 2015 19:56
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