Why Should We Care About Property Rights?

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Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Jrode, did you know that most of Ron Paul's principled no votes against the machinery of cruellest statism were carefully planned to be symbolic protests, so that he could build his brand and work the rubes? In fact, did you know that most American right-wing political groups are inescapably intertwined with scams?

If I scam you out of all of your money but you still have outstanding debts, can I legally enslave you? If I did legally enslave you, would I get the Hong Kong movies free, or your share of the revenues, or what? I mean I'm assuming slave-taking isn't off limits under libertopia, because that interferes with your property rights.

# ¿ Jan 20, 2016 00:48

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 09:58

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

jrodefeld posted:

How do you know any of that? People have accused Ron Paul of plenty of things over the years,. but being insincere is certainly not one of them. Ron Paul got into politics to speak out and educate the masses about libertarian ideas and leave a record in American political history that people can look back on. He never cared about passing legislation. Nobody of a sane mind actually thinks that Ron's political positions, whether right or wrong, were taken for any reason other than that is what he genuinely and truly believes.

I don't know why you'd think I'd care about right-wing political groups or their scams, considering libertarianism and especially individualist anarchism, are NOT a part of the American right-wing.

Oh, well, I guess your anecdote beats my anecdote because your anecdote includes an implication that I'm mentally ill. They teach you these debating tactics down at the Gulch or are you just naturally rude?

As for the latter, libertarianism is right wing as gently caress, economically. Sorry you had to find out this way.

# ¿ Jan 20, 2016 04:07

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

The South screamed bloody murder because they might have lost their majority in the Senate, as they felt entitled to the full control of the Republic. There were also what we'd probably call "slaver-backed sectarian militias" operating in "Bloody" Kansas and in other areas. When Sam Houston, a Founding Father of the recently-assimilated Republic of Texas, pled with Texas to not join the Confederacy and, if they must secede, become an independent state again, I believe he was thrown out of the legislature.

The antebellum South also made numerous (failed) attempts to plant slave agriculture throughout the Gulf of Mexico, and would have probably demanded the seizure or purchase of Cuba (as a slave state, perhaps by force) if they hadn't left when they did.

Very libertarian!

# ¿ Jan 20, 2016 07:40

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Hey Promotorium, do you know where I can get some high quality Blu-ray Hong Kong action movies? With Bruce Lee, maybe? Let me know.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2016 11:40

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

I actually think that you can trace the whole "all the joy that comes from helping someone instead of joylessly having men with guns distribute money so people are merely left not starving" comes out of a weird Protestant way of thinking, where the point of charitable giving is its benefit to the giver, on a spiritual level.

# ¿ Jan 30, 2016 08:30

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

I am told that Ron Paul supports gold, because he can forge it into armor to protect him from a fleet-footed young black man.

# ¿ Jan 31, 2016 00:04

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Karia posted:

Welp, looks like Promontorium ditched us. Surprise. Good work all y'alls, better luck next time. Maybe more yelling at him about racism? That's got a proven track record of getting libertarians to stick around.

Maybe he should take some personal responsibility for his posting

# ¿ Jan 31, 2016 22:21

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

jrodefeld posted:

Now a shorter post.

Given that we have been discussing healthcare reform, I have a simple question I�d like to pose:

In the interest of productive reform of an obviously broken US healthcare system, would you support changing the mandate of the FDA from either permitting or banning certain treatments, drugs and procedures onto the market to merely recommending or not recommending said medical products but not having the power to prevent their free sale to those who desire them?

*gives the answer u need to further your preaching, saving everyone substantial time and expense*

e: Also, please answer sudo's post, would you kindly

# ¿ Feb 2, 2016 05:08

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

jrodefeld posted:

I'd also like to have this particular question answered since it has been pretty much ignored even though I have brought it up multiple times before.

Or do you get to be exempted from such things because you're the libertarian ubermensch, bringing the light of ~~God~~ LIBERTY to us benighted statists?

# ¿ Feb 2, 2016 05:38

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

theshim posted:

t h a l i d o m i d e

Well you see, your actual factual example is meaningless, because think of the massive potential upside if we did not have this process.

Hey Jrode, what do you think of praexology? Do you enjoy the warm, safe embrace of an ideology that has declared itself immune to disproof?

# ¿ Feb 2, 2016 06:16

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

VitalSigns posted:

How does a DRO collect compensation from offenders for its clients if (unlike Lincoln's tyrannical US Government) DRO's are honor-bound to respect the Categorical Imperative and never take property without the owner's consent?

Assuming they wanted to keep up the pretense of the non-aggression principle as opposed to merely becoming warlords and kings, which is what would actually happen, I'm imagining that they would publically withdraw their protection and MYSTERIOUSLY some bandits would show up and start looting and raiding and pillaging. The bandits would always be the same bandits, and the DRO officers would stand by to negotiate unfavorable terms for protection with the foolish reprobate.

# ¿ Feb 2, 2016 06:37

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Hey hey, rodefeld j, how many questions did you ignore today

# ¿ Feb 2, 2016 06:47

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

jrodefeld posted:

What you are suggesting is that if two or more individuals come to a mutually agreeable transaction on the market that you disapprove of, you think it is justified to kidnap one or more of them and throw them in a cage.

It's like some kind of... reduction... to the point of absurdity, of his argument.

I wonder what they'd call that in Latin?

So what about all the questions you're ignoring, jrode? Have you declined to create joinder or are you only interested in preaching your faith to the heathens?

# ¿ Feb 2, 2016 08:41

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Oh my lord, I missed that in the course of mocking him. Is he seriously proposing that clinical trials are impossible because the profit motive would inevitably corrupt the findings and that therefore the only solution is to let everyone pour all the snake oil and opium tinctures possible directly into their ballsacks?

# ¿ Feb 2, 2016 08:52

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

It's starting to seem like libertopia is founded on a whole hell of a lot of tiny, fragile bones, often twisted by horrible chemicals in the process.

# ¿ Feb 2, 2016 09:48

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

If the profit motive makes knowledge impossible, perhaps it should be abolished. :ussr:

# ¿ Feb 2, 2016 09:55

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

VitalSigns posted:

It's endlessly amusing that the FDA is too vulnerable to corruption by profit-seeking companies therefore say the Libertarians, we should abolish it and let the profit-seekers pay did evaluators directly

This has to be the clumsiest attempt I've seen to win over progressives, right up there with "the rich influence the justice system so help me get rid of it so the rich can own the armies and courts directly"

It seems like there's no way libertopia does not cause gigadeaths. If you wanted to make the argument of, "Yeah, it'd kill most of humanity BUT the survivors will be way happier and I'm prepared to accept that I and my kin might not make it through the Time of Doom" at least you're being honest.

# ¿ Feb 2, 2016 10:48

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

The obvious answer to this question would be "all the employees," possibly in somewhat different degrees but for the purpose of this featureless plain, let's say equally. If Carl is an active participant in the operations of the firm then he is also partially responsible for that profit.

What would seem to be a fair distribution of the spoils would be share and share alike. If one individual is unusually essential then perhaps they could be voted a share and a half, or two shares. Perhaps as the founder Carl deserves two shares. In that case the pot would be divided into seven equal shares and Carl would get two, everyone else would get one. This system or a loose approximation seems to arise organically, with the greatest examples of course being the gentlemen of fortune upon the Spanish Main.

Now of course eventually this can develop into the joint stock corporation and modern society complete with a shareholder theory of value, but it would seem that workplace democracy could in principle control this... of course, workplace democracy can also be bribed ("you're leaving town at the end of the year? well how about we vote to change the rules, Bill, and I'll cut you a check if you back me up - won't be any skin off your nose") and people may not necessarily get along either. Perhaps the DROs could provide some kind of neutral arbitrartion with penalties for violations?

# ¿ Feb 2, 2016 11:43

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Hmmmm jrode are you trying to signal to us that

A. the profit motive is a massive distortion and source of corruption
and also that B. profits are actually information being transmitted rather than wealth of some kind which an individual might be intrinsically entitled to, "sweat of the brow" style?

Maybe you're kind of coming round the barn to some kind of fancy techno-communism with a market socialist sector for consumer goods, such as pirated HK movies.

# ¿ Feb 2, 2016 20:05

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Also I think you're going to need to start developing a replacement for the "thrown into a cage" metaphor, because that's just evoking gales of derisive laughter from the unwashed heathens at this point. Maybe you could compare it to concentration camps next? Just trying to help ya out. (If you use this analogy I expect regular royalty payments.)

# ¿ Feb 2, 2016 20:08

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

You know, it seems to me that this whole faith healer, "this will cure you, and if it doesn't, the problem is with you" thing is extremely consonant with the whole bootstraps idea; take enough Personal Responsibility, work hard enough, and you'll come out on top... and if you don't you deserved it for being lazy and inferior.

(I would separate this slightly from homeopaths and so on because there is in my mind a difference between authentic belief in an unfortunately inaccurate medical model, and "if you will but BELIEVE...')

# ¿ Feb 3, 2016 00:09

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Hey Jrod, are you trying to save our souls or what? Seriously, if you're trying to be a missionary you're doing a remarkably lovely job of it. You might look up how other religions do it - steal some of their techniques.

1000101 posted:

What good is working a job if the wage isn't suitable to sustain a minimal standard of living?

"Poor people aren't actually people and their suffering is meaningless; what matters is what they produce for real people, i.e. the business owners and so forth."

# ¿ Feb 3, 2016 04:16

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

GreyjoyBastard posted:

I'm going to defend living in a parental home as a perfectly reasonable economic decision, especially if you're A) socioeconomically impoverished (he probably ain't) or B) willing to eat the moderate but nonzero social consequences of doing so in modern America.

with a lot of caveats like it being an rear end in a top hat thing to do if the parents want to sell it and downsize / move elsewhere, but whatever

Kind of undercuts the ol' self-made man libertarian ubermensch position. Be like a Lubavitcher yelling at you to strap up and pray while he's eating a ham and cheese sandwich.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2016 04:46

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Jrode, it seems awfully like your economic theory isn't even so much "for" anything as it is "against" laborers. Why do you hate them so much by adopting such a hateful thesis? Do you feel they are lesser? Do you feel they are, perhaps, life unworthy of life?

# ¿ Feb 3, 2016 05:49

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

TLM3101 posted:

Perhaps labor is the voidable Non?

Is that it, JRode? Does Mises fill you and do you grow turgid?

Non-aggressive pre-emptive self-defense ensues. *fires plasmoid at dark-skinned people, flies into it*

# ¿ Feb 3, 2016 06:17

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Maybe Libertarians believe that everything outside of the USA is just literally the Soviet Union. Or maybe they don't believe in Europe.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2016 09:33

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Iranians are, at best, marginally white and are definitely not adherents to the one true witch cult of Christianity (even if I myself do not believe), and therefore, their property is forfeit. "Tax All Foreigners Living Abroad"

# ¿ Feb 4, 2016 01:28

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Is that really jrode? If so, I wonder why he feels this need to go back to Berchtesgaden so often... does the place have... family importance to them, perhaps?

# ¿ Feb 4, 2016 04:56

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

jrodefeld posted:

Like I said, though, I'm happy to reply to your argument if you'd kindly tell me what the hell you are talking about.

Oh, and what brought on this change of policy? Or is this, much like the freedom-loving nature of Dr. Ron Paul, a lie from the (e: mercury-free) mouth of a liar?

# ¿ Feb 5, 2016 08:37

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

jrodefeld posted:

There are literally no prominent libertarians that I am aware of who supported Apartheid.

Now out of curiosity, is the operative term here "I am aware of" - meaning that you have deliberately avoided gaining that knowledge - or is it "prominent," thus meaning that (by shifting rhetorical focus) any libertarian who spoke favorably of apartheid would by definition not be prominent?

VitalSigns posted:

Why is it that the children of the rich don't have to break into the labor market, and are just assumed to be of great value with great prospects for education and are granted free university, living expenses, the ability to take unpaid internships to get connections, etc whereas the children of the poor are expected to quit school early and work their way up the ladder starting as cotton-pickers jrod?

Well you've seen how much these people love to talk up the superior amount of liberty-loving found in aristocratic/monarchial systems.

# ¿ Feb 5, 2016 08:54

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

I'm pretty sure your boy Triple H actually advocated for the forcible destruction of socialist, democratic etc. groups and persons in order to protect the Volk.

As for the rest, why the hell do you keep pretending you give a single gently caress about workers?

quote:

People choose to exchange their labor for wages because they have a higher time preference.

More like

quote:

People choose to exchange their labor because the farcial choice presented to them in most cases is the freedom to choose between working for someone else or dying of starvation.

This is not quite the case now because there are programs for those in truly dire straits, but these programs are under attack and I believe in your vision of libertopia they would not exist, and would be replaced with... the system of private charity whose inadequacies created the state bureaucracies and redistribution programs. :ironicat:

It seems you are willing to trade massive, immense human suffering in order to gain some hypothetical, axiomatic moral virtue. What makes this any different from a Stalinist? At least a Stalinist has a positive end goal. Your end goal seems to be "everyone suffers except the very rich, however, freedom."

e: Oh, I see you're also a doctrinare fundamentalist. "It's important that we realize that it's impossible for scientific studies to disprove this poo poo I believe. Now let's talk about how important it is that this poo poo I believe be implemented in practice ASAP. This time, it HAS to work - that's axiomatically required!" I do appreciate how you do give credence to studies that happen to agree with your pre-concieved notions - those studies, of course, have value, while those that go against those notions, well... Very intellectually rigorous and fair of you, ya melonfucker.

Nessus fucked around with this message at 11:03 on Feb 5, 2016

# ¿ Feb 5, 2016 11:00

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Hey if someone could give a page reference or permalink to that Rothbard quote giving away the game on the purpose of "race science" that would be swell, googling is kind of making it fall apart for me. e: doubtless due to the effect of statism on my tender, ill-bred brainpan

# ¿ Feb 5, 2016 20:53

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

DrProsek posted:

Now hang on a hot minute there, are you claiming that the minimum wage going up didn't change the number of people needed to adequately staff the comic book store? The store didn't fire half its staff on the assumption that the higher paid workers would suddenly work 20 hour days?

Well that's just crazy talk, I praxed it out (see:hosed a watermellon), and the result I got was that a store that needs 10 employees at current minimum wage will only need 5 once the minimum wages goes up to $15!

I think the real argument is "once the minimum wage is abolished, think how much cheaper the comics will get!" Where even if the owner has soulless drones as laborers whose work is unaffected by the moral hit of finding out they just had their pay slashed, why would he not just take the difference as profit?

# ¿ Feb 5, 2016 21:56

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

GunnerJ posted:

It's interesting that Woods contrasts "settled peacefully on a state by state basis" with a Supreme Court decision. Are Supreme Court decisions not peaceful for some reason? Are state-level laws more peacefully enforced than federal-level policy? Hm, I wonder why he might say such a thing...

I think that states rights has a moral superiority to other levels of societal organization because of their connection to the protection of the truest and most honest form of free market liberty - that is, black slavery.

# ¿ Feb 5, 2016 22:02

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Twerkteam Pizza posted:

Yes, those poor 16 to 21 year old young adults will suddenly want to work when they can make less, economics told me so.

Well once we close their schools and cut their parents' food stamps, they'll have to work or die of deprivation. This will motivate them to work harder, as well as providing further downward pressure on the price of unskilled labor, because now everyone involved knows, even more clearly, that they can be instantly replaced.

This will produce more profit for the owners. Hurray!

The long term question of "how, exactly, will the business sector aimed at the poors function when they have even less money to get preyed on" is irrelevant, due to the action axiom.

The other long term question of "How do we keep the poors, who now have even less to lose, from going kama-crazy and murdering us" would also be solved, as the poors would embrace the NAP. Alternately, the cops will be unleashed.

# ¿ Feb 5, 2016 22:14

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Who What Now posted:

Less that they'll want to and more that they'll have to work to help their families eat. Sorry Johnny, but you're going to have to drop out of McDonalds and get a job unloading stock at Wal*Mart for $2.15/hr so that we have enough money to feed your younger brother and sister as well as keep the heat on.

Edit: ^^^^Fucker!^^^^

They could freely choose to perish instead, and this will be beneficial to the market, as it will remove poor (in both the financial and eugenic sense) seed from the gene pool.

# ¿ Feb 5, 2016 22:48

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Grand Theft Autobot posted:

But Johnny can take the skills he learns unloading stock to his next job, loading stock, for $2.25 an hour. Then, in a few years, if he hasn't been hurt at work and left on skid row by his supervisor, Johnny can take his talents inside and stock the shelves for $2.60 an hour. The next few decades are pretty tough on ol' Johnny. He lost a few teeth in a freak accident stocking paint cans and couldn't afford the implants, so he is afraid to interview outside the company. Luckily enough, back spasms and knee ligament injuries force him into early retirement at age 45. His ending wage was $6.45 an hour. That's a 300% increase over his career! His retirement account has $1,230.54 in it, which is an increase of literally infinity from where it started. How ashamed do you feel that your minimum wage would have prevented this from happening?

checkmate, Liberals.

"My god, life expectancy statistics are plummeting due to your reversion to early modern period treatment of laborers!"
"I think you'll find that the action axiom states that this does not matter, and may in fact not exist."

# ¿ Feb 5, 2016 22:53

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Nolanar posted:

That's the fascinating part to me. He posts this poo poo again and again, and he doesn't change it. Not even so much as quietly removing an argument we pounced on before. It's just the same exact goddamned thing, and it's baffling.

It's because he's a (lovely) missionary intending to convert us to his religion. Like most religions it is ultimately a bunch of unquestionable maxims which must be taken on faith without - or indeed, in resistance to - evidence, this religion is just more about an ineluctable cosmic force of fundamental goodness.

# ¿ Feb 5, 2016 23:48

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

VitalSigns posted:

I love it when they give away the game like this. The Supreme Court forcibly imposed individual rights on the country by judicial fiat, whereas state governmentsd criminalizing abortion and enforcing Jim Crow were

peaceful discourse

That man was clearly initiating force by being black in the presence of ~~white~~ good peaceful people

# ¿ Feb 6, 2016 03:43

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 09:58

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

VitalSigns posted:

Well he did engage the criticism of his study he asked for by deciding empirical evidence doesn't actually tell us anything after all.

No, no - empirical evidence can only confirm our pre-defined ideas. If it seems to suggest otherwise, it doesn't count.

# ¿ Feb 6, 2016 09:01

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