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tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~

Onmi posted:

In short, the story itself is trying to frame the Delaz fleet as heroic, the actions they've taken as being good, and their deaths being tragic. Despite the fact they killed a lot of people following the ideology of the literal worst Zabi.

I'd argue there's 3 pretty big differences between your examples from 0083 and the example of Marida or Zinnerman from Unicorn, the first being that while those examples from 0083 are framing the actions of the characters in the present, the examples from Unicorn like Marida's "Light of Zeon" or Zinnerman's "the Federation slaughtered my family/city" are characters framing their past and what caused them to act up to now. One is how the narrative wants you to see the characters going forward, one is how the narrative wants you to see the character's up to that point. The second leads on from that, because both Marida and Zinnerman turn against Zeon. Which is pretty important, given that both are the major insights into why people fought for Zeon and both end up working against them. Almost as if the story wants you to see their change of priorities as a good thing, given they help the protagonist.

The final point applies less to Marida, and more to ZInnerman specifically, but regardless, stands in that Zinnerman is punished for his actions within Zeon by the narrative. The actual protagonist beats him up for using his past as justification for slaughter, which can be directly carried over to Zeon as a whole. He also loses his family again because he's been so narrowly focused on revenge, and helped use his new family as a soldier in order to get revenge. This still kind of applies to Marida though, because while Banagher doesn't beat her up as direct refutation of her actions in Zeon, she's used as a tool by Full Frontal and the Sleeves generally and eventually turns on them because of it.

I'd say those are fairly important personally because your view essentially makes it impossible for characters to justify their actions within the story, on the premise that if the story ever has villains justify why they did what they did then it's intrinsically an external justification that the audience is meant to share.

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Iriscoral
Apr 9, 2023
To cut to the heart of the matter; ultimately Unicorn's revisionist tendencies don't really annoy me (speaking as a Southeast Asian guy who has all the beef to have with Japanese revisionism) because at the fundamental end of the day the OVA (which I care about, seeing that I will never be able to read a Japanese-only novel) despite its sympathic protrayals ultimately rejects it as a possible solution. Syam Vist and Minevra as stakeholders both reject Zeonism despite whatever Full Frontal sprouts because they very well understand that not only has it been discredited by the actions of the Principality and its successor movements, but its also a reactionary movement (at that period of time, for no one remembers nor cares about Zeon Zum Deikun by that point) that doesn't actually overturn the existing system of oppression that exists.

And aside from Zimmerman's and Marida's attitudes as foot soldiers for the Sleeves/Neo Zeon movements, its not unfair to understand why they would believe in such an ideology. In the real world, the key justification of the Japanese Empire's actions did indeed come from them rising to prominence in the age of imperialism, and thus insisting that amongst other reasons, they would present an alternative imperialism that would actually protect and uplift the rights of the oppressed and the colonized.

Of course, like the Principality, the Japanese Empire ultimately betrayed that promise, with their countless masscres of many different populations (particularly the Chinese) and their failure to actually do anything different from the other European powers. We don't have to forgive them for that; until the Yasukuni Shrine is toppled and the ideology is truly gone from the public conciousness there can't nor won't be a full reconciliation. However, you can't just dismiss ideology. It might be dead, but it has its grips, particularly when its believers never truly die. Just like the LDP is just the remnants of the Japanese Empire's aristocrats who the US left alone, Zeon keeps staying around because they are too useful a boogeyman for the Federation's ruling class to leave alone, and that light - however false it is - keeps drawing in the disenfranchised and the lost.

Unicorn's strength is that it actually grapples with the question before completing its rejection of the Zeonic ideology it outright, and thus this is why Zeonism ultimately fades away from the Earth Sphere and most of the timeline past that point via settling the question. Its actually a better way to write it as compared to just black-and-whiting the conflict. Where Unicorn gets silly is in how it doesn't settle the bigger question, i.e. the question of the Federation. Trusting in the possibility inside human hearts and just leaving it at that, alongside embracing the childlike naivety of reconcilatiom doesn't actually solve the material problem (or create the conditions of solving the problem) that is the Federation's grip on the Earth Sphere and the ongoing exploitation, which is why I kinda haven't watched Narrative because I think its going to be just as wishywashy in that department.

Iriscoral fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Mar 28, 2024

ninjewtsu
Oct 9, 2012

unicorn's greatest sin is that what was inside the box could have been something cool, but instead it was something stupid

Iriscoral posted:

which is why I kinda haven't watched Narrative because I think its going to be just as wishywashy in that department.

i'll be honest i watched narrative and i don't really remember what happens in it from a broader timeline view at all

there was a ghost robot

at the end, there wasn't a ghost robot anymore

...i think

Iriscoral
Apr 9, 2023

ninjewtsu posted:

unicorn's greatest sin is that what was inside the box could have been something cool, but instead it was something stupid

I agree, as much as I'm fine with it (the essence matters more than the form) the clause would have made much sense if it was about the autonomy of the colonies, or suffrage, or a more direct promise or system. Instead its just a really vague thing that may not even have some sort of actual substance.

The idea of the Newtype myth really kinda hurts UC at times.

ninjewtsu posted:

i'll be honest i watched narrative and i don't really remember what happens in it from a broader timeline view at all

there was a ghost robot

at the end, there wasn't a ghost robot anymore

...i think

...please don't tell me they didn't just make an entire movie to sell a gold plated Perfectability.

(the Narrative A-Packs are kinda cool though)

Fivemarks
Feb 21, 2015
I would also be way more down with a gundam series made by the guy who made Astartes.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



ninjewtsu posted:

unicorn's greatest sin is that what was inside the box could have been something cool, but instead it was something stupid

i'll be honest i watched narrative and i don't really remember what happens in it from a broader timeline view at all

there was a ghost robot

at the end, there wasn't a ghost robot anymore

...i think

Narrative is interesting... no. I lie. Narrative isn't interesting. But that's the remarkable thing about it, because it plays with some really neat, complicated politics, it toys with the idea of use of newtypes for cynical ends other than direct militarization, the miracle children setup... there's a ton there that should be interesting. But none of it is, both due to convoluted editing and focus on the most boring man in the Universal Century.

(Seriously, he's one of the Gundam protagonists who's made me look more and more favorably at Banagher, if only by comparison.)

Moving back to Unicorn, the box had to be something minor. That's the whole kicker of the reveal. This secret that had everyone terrified, this monstrous thing that could decide the whole future? The box that had leaked out thousands of nightmares already?

Open the box, and all that was left in it was, of course, a little sliver of hope. (And now I realize just how on-the-nose that was). Banagher and Mineva rejected the cynical realpolitik of the major players, and were rewarded by both by rejecting a fear that would have bound them all their lives, and in finding that the Federation has something good in it at the founding, not just something rotten.

Sure, we know where it goes, and it's not a nice place, but the hope is better than what they had before.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007
it wasn't hope at all, though. it was a silly historical curiosity with no power.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Iriscoral posted:

I agree, as much as I'm fine with it (the essence matters more than the form) the clause would have made much sense if it was about the autonomy of the colonies, or suffrage, or a more direct promise or system. Instead its just a really vague thing that may not even have some sort of actual substance.

The idea of the Newtype myth really kinda hurts UC at times.

...please don't tell me they didn't just make an entire movie to sell a gold plated Perfectability.

(the Narrative A-Packs are kinda cool though)

I have bad news for you.

Narrative is weird because it looks at the worldbuilding Unicorn was attempting, goes lol lmao, and instead tells a 5/10 character story with characters you're supposed to be interested in but do nothing to earn that interest and janky cuts to flashbacks at awkward moments. It's most notable achievement is probably reinforcing how terrible the Newtype Labs were, which was already well established in Zeta and ZZ. It also tries to set up some stuff for what is presumably Unicorn 2 with whatever Bakharov, Minerva, and Banana are up to but the latter lands kinda awkwardly (why the fixation on suppressing knowledge of Newtypes? The Federation not trying hard enough?) and the former is weird because it should have been something touched on in Unicorn, I think, even as a post-credits stinger or something.

The reason I mentioned SRW30 in my last post was that it adapts Narrative into its story, and does a way better job making you care about Jona and Michelle by letting them bounce off the other characters outside their stages and actually develop their characters beyond the outline of a character.

Iriscoral
Apr 9, 2023

chiasaur11 posted:

Open the box, and all that was left in it was, of course, a little sliver of hope. (And now I realize just how on-the-nose that was). Banagher and Mineva rejected the cynical realpolitik of the major players, and were rewarded by both by rejecting a fear that would have bound them all their lives, and in finding that the Federation has something good in it at the founding, not just something rotten.

Sure, we know where it goes, and it's not a nice place, but the hope is better than what they had before.

gimme the GOD drat candy posted:

it wasn't hope at all, though. it was a silly historical curiosity with no power.
I'm going to be the coward and say that both interpretations are very true and correct.

That there was indeed hope to be found, and yet that hope is ultimately useless - a silly historical curios to quote the above poster. But that's a fault less of the work itself and again, of the media apparatus and material realities that it was built upon.

As I was talking about a few weeks ago, ultimately that this is Unicorn's answer is just emblematic of the modern Japanese landscape. As much as they are aware that the future is uncertain and not looking good, that systematic changes must happen, they are unable or unwilling to address it in the moment, instead insisting on the need to adhere to false peace and hopes, or legal technicalities and concepts, and thrusting the 'future' and its responsibilities into the untrained hands of youth.

One can see this in Cardeas/Syam Vist passing their respective torches to Banagher/Minevra when you contrast with the world at large. The children are trusted with ideas and concepts of renewal hope, but aside from the barest of goodwill, there isn't the transfer of material resources or concepts of aid, just good words and a pat on the back. The kids don't even get a giant robot to try to fix the world with.

And because of that Unicorn is flawed. How can you trust in the beast of possibility when there exists no tools you can bring it to life?

Iriscoral fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Mar 28, 2024

X-Ray Pecs
May 11, 2008

New York
Ice Cream
TV
Travel
~Good Times~
The only things I remember about Narrative are 1) that guy changed a lot from Unicorn 2) I felt really stupid how long it took for me to catch Phenex = Phoenix and 3) we just had to get one more drat Even so! in there.

ninjewtsu
Oct 9, 2012

the idea that the contents of the box matter less than the fact that the federation hid the contents of the box and the blackmail opportunity that presents is fine, but the reality of what was actually being hidden is incredibly silly

Waffleman_
Jan 20, 2011


I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna!!!

https://twitter.com/DarthVeda00/status/1772973060330508700?t=BHtep7YC7OM6tLrZRLWjnw&s=19

Wife fight...

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
Suletta better beat Miorine's rear end fair and square with no assisted sabotage.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

ninjewtsu posted:

the idea that the contents of the box matter less than the fact that the federation hid the contents of the box and the blackmail opportunity that presents is fine, but the reality of what was actually being hidden is incredibly silly

The hidden clause in the secret original draft of the U.S. constitution giving senatorial seats to little green men from Mars if they appear at some point in the future will come to light one day.

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?

Kanos posted:

The hidden clause in the secret original draft of the U.S. constitution giving senatorial seats to little green men from Mars if they appear at some point in the future will come to light one day.

This is why the Stonecutters keep the Martians under wraps, you realize.

Gripweed
Nov 8, 2018

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Kanos posted:

The hidden clause in the secret original draft of the U.S. constitution giving senatorial seats to little green men from Mars if they appear at some point in the future will come to light one day.

I don't think there was any real belief in life on Mars until the mid 1800s.

It's more like, if the US Constitution had a secret article that was like, "If it is ever proven that the American Indian has the same capacity for thought and reason as the white man, the Federal Government shall give priority to involving them in the administration of the government"

X-Ray Pecs
May 11, 2008

New York
Ice Cream
TV
Travel
~Good Times~

Gripweed posted:

I don't think there was any real belief in life on Mars until the mid 1800s.

It's more like, if the US Constitution had a secret article that was like, "If it is ever proven that the American Indian has the same capacity for thought and reason as the white man, the Federal Government shall give priority to involving them in the administration of the government"

Except those indigenous tribes were around when the Constitution was written up, whereas in Unicorn, the super top double secret REAL founding document of the UC mentions something that didn’t exist yet and was a fuckin moonshot “just in case.” The Martian comparison is way more accurate.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



Iriscoral posted:

One can see this in Cardeas/Syam Vist passing their respective torches to Banagher/Minevra when you contrast with the world at large. The children are trusted with ideas and concepts of renewal hope, but aside from the barest of goodwill, there isn't the transfer of material resources or concepts of aid, just good words and a pat on the back. The kids don't even get a giant robot to try to fix the world with.
Now I understand what you're saying here and I don't think you're wrong in your general thrust, but I sat down and watched Gundam Unicorn and I believe it was fairly clear that Mr. Banana did in fact get himself a giant robot. I think it came up a couple of times in the story.

ACES CURE PLANES
Oct 21, 2010



Warmachine posted:

The reason I mentioned SRW30 in my last post was that it adapts Narrative into its story, and does a way better job making you care about Jona and Michelle by letting them bounce off the other characters outside their stages and actually develop their characters beyond the outline of a character.

I've got a lot of problems with 30 but man, the way it made Jona into one of my favorites was great.

Poor guy doesn't really have anything going for him other than drive, but he keeps getting back up and going for it.

Gripweed
Nov 8, 2018

ASK ME ABOUT MY
UNITED STATES MARINES
FUNKO POPS COLLECTION



X-Ray Pecs posted:

Except those indigenous tribes were around when the Constitution was written up, whereas in Unicorn, the super top double secret REAL founding document of the UC mentions something that didn’t exist yet and was a fuckin moonshot “just in case.” The Martian comparison is way more accurate.

The idea of humans changing due to space travel has received serious scientific thought now, when space colonization isn’t even a live possibility. I think it’s reasonable for the people planning the opening of the first space colony to have it on their mind. Which is not the case for the founding fathers and Martians. Iirc life on other celestial bodies was not a seriously discussed scientific topic at the time. And the concept of Martians wouldn’t be popularized until the “discovery” of the Martian “canals” a century later.

And, the American colonies separating from England did not increase the likelihood of contact with Martians. But I think we can all agree that space colonization does increase, however remotely, the possibility of space people.

The Native American comparison is much stronger. Y’all just don’t want to admit it because that would mean Unicorn is a little less dumb than you thought.

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
Again, the devil is in the details for Unicorn. A lot of the thematic elements work just fine but when you get to the specific writing of what is actually being said it gets silly. The ideas are sound, the execution can be good and then the script makes you blink.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



Gripweed posted:

The idea of humans changing due to space travel has received serious scientific thought now, when space colonization isn’t even a live possibility. I think it’s reasonable for the people planning the opening of the first space colony to have it on their mind. Which is not the case for the founding fathers and Martians. Iirc life on other celestial bodies was not a seriously discussed scientific topic at the time. And the concept of Martians wouldn’t be popularized until the “discovery” of the Martian “canals” a century later.

And, the American colonies separating from England did not increase the likelihood of contact with Martians. But I think we can all agree that space colonization does increase, however remotely, the possibility of space people.

The Native American comparison is much stronger. Y’all just don’t want to admit it because that would mean Unicorn is a little less dumb than you thought.
The analysis that came to me when I saw Unicorn, which seemed to get some assent from my friend group, is that it was an awkwardly and ambiguously phrased thing along the lines of "if humans start to speciate due to space colonization impacts, the Earth Federation shall strive to include the new human specieseses as well." Sort of a pre-emptive anti-racist statement, and given that this was a hypothetical to them at the time (if a plausible one to consider) it makes sense that it's kind of wishy-washy.

You could of course argue whether Newtypes are in fact a 'new type of human' in the sense that some kind of Homo sapiens spaceman subspecies adapted to life in microgravity might be, if they're just ordinary humans on the far end of a bell curve for a particular set of talents that were particularly important for piloting Mobile Suits, or if it's entirely cultural vs. genetic.

Nessus fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Mar 28, 2024

That Works
Jul 22, 2006

Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy


Woulda been better if the box contained evidence that the feds knew about newtypes and genocided them or something like that.

That would have been more damaging and made the use of newtypes by the feds 80 years later even more disgusting to people in Unicorn once revealed.

ninjewtsu
Oct 9, 2012

but imagine the historical revisionism and fascist apologia internet arguments if that were the case

ninjewtsu
Oct 9, 2012

shoulda just been a clause for space colony legislative representation that got scrubbed out

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That Works
Jul 22, 2006

Every revolution evaporates and leaves behind only the slime of a new bureaucracy


ninjewtsu posted:

but imagine the historical revisionism and fascist apologia internet arguments if that were the case

*looks around*

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