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Nitrox
Jul 5, 2002

Slur, your fighting style is extremely problematic!

I like how you think that you'll spend just $40/month on propane heating. But can't wait to see the actual numbers, hopefully other boat dwellers can give you some hard data.

As an actual carpenter who worked on boats, RVs and trailers, I've seen some crazy numbers. Nobody I know spends winters on boats/RVs, but trailers can get stupid expensive because of the poor insulation. We had something like 30 days below freezing in eastern PA last year, not a regular thing. During those months, some electric furnace trailers (that i know), were averaging $400/month. Some are buying pellet stoves/furnaces this year, safety be damned.

Also, boat engines are not car engines. Look into what some service intervals are, and what does it take to perform simple maintenance items. Some boats need to be out of the water for an oil change. Electrics may be finicky as well. Half of your stuff is AC, other half is DC. It's good that marina let's you use AC power, but you're probably paying extra.

I'm the guy who said get an RV instead. It's just as uncomfortable, but will cost much less. Hell, build your own out of a school bus. You can totally do that under 10 grand and have a kick rear end moving house.

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BaseballPCHiker
Jan 16, 2006

Small Update
Got a chance to talk to two full time live aboards yesterday and bounce some questions off of them.

My monthly boat payment costs were wildly overestimated. I was thinking $600ish a month. One was paying $300 and the other $250 a month as a boat payment. Both were on 20 year loans which is pretty typical for a house boat. They had both mentioned though that bank loans for boats are harder to come by since the last recession when you could get a loan for anything. Interest rates should be about %6-7 for my boat loan. Slip fees include your electricity so thats one bill I wont have to pay anymore once I'm on board. It'll be replaced by the sewage sucking and propane bills.

I spent most of my time with them asking about heating in the winter. Both said that getting your boat wrapped was %100 necessary. With the boat wrapped you shed any snow that could pile up and sink your boat and it helps keep your boat warm. Apparently even in the dead of winter with the sun hitting a wrapped boat it gets HOT. To the point that both of their furnaces shut off. At night the wrap doesn't do anything but block the wind so thats when your furnace will be working. They stressed having a backup source of heat as well. One person had their furnace break down last winter and thankfully had electric space heaters as a backup to keep everything from freezing. This same person has had problems with their water tank freezing and said to look at a boat with good hull insulation to keep that from happening. Because once it does you're waiting until spring to take a shower on board again.

My propane estimate was off, they said it might be as much $100 a month depending on how high I run the heat and if I have any other appliances that use propane like a refrigerator or something. They sell insulation, it kind of looks like the car window sun shields that one person puts up on the walls that helps a great deal in the winter. The other person had more of purpose built houseboat and didnt have to use them.

One person did have a steel hull boat! They said that they are great and strong but that its almost impossible to get it insured and that it took them a long time before it was. So I was encouraged to look at aluminum and steel hulls.

Both were enthusiastic about me buying a boat! They love living on the river year round. The did both stress the importance of a boat inspection and recommended sleeping onboard one night before buying. They both told me to take my time and make sure you get a boat you are happy with that isn't a full rebuild or project. This weekend I'll be going down to a marina to look at a couple of more boats and see if I can find anything worth buying.

defectivemonkey
Jun 5, 2012
It's too bad there's no more accurate way of estimating a loan payment than asking people what they pay and averaging that together.

Nail Rat
Dec 29, 2000

You maniacs! You blew it up! God damn you! God damn you all to hell!!
I'm noticing there's still no talk about maintenance costs. No talk at all. Whatever, I'll deal with it as it comes!

Veskit
Mar 2, 2005

I love capitalism!! DM me for the best investing advice!

detectivemonkey posted:

Is the 8k your boat budget or your savings?

Please answer this one so we can at least make sure you're safely making a horrible decision.

Tots
Sep 3, 2007

:frogout:

Veskit posted:

Please answer this one so we can at least make sure you're safely making a horrible decision.

8k is his down payment money IIRC

Veskit
Mar 2, 2005

I love capitalism!! DM me for the best investing advice!

Tots posted:

8k is his down payment money IIRC

She's asking if the 8k is just 8 grand in his savings account and when spent it will leave him without any liquidity so if an emergency came up he's poo poo out of luck, or if he still has a nice enough savings cushion on top of being able to afford the boat.


If you don't have any savings after the downpayment then you can't really afford it.

Orthodox Rabbit
Jun 2, 2006

This game is perfect for empty-headed dunces that don't like to think much!! Of course, I'm a genius... I wonder why I'm so good at it?!
It sounds like 20 year leases for a boat are a real thing but the idea of someone having one is really funny to me.

Elephanthead
Sep 11, 2008


Toilet Rascal
Have you considered an RV? I mean I wouldn't read an RV thread but have you?

Nail Rat
Dec 29, 2000

You maniacs! You blew it up! God damn you! God damn you all to hell!!
What about an amphibious RV?

http://www.camillc.com/terrawind.htm

Summer on the lake, migrate south for the winter. Take the highway or the river, whatever!

r0ck0
Sep 12, 2004
r0ck0s p0zt m0d3rn lyf

SarutosZero posted:

It sounds like 20 year leases for a boat are a real thing but the idea of someone having one is really funny to me.

Just 232 more payments and that wreck at the bottom of the lake is all mine.

BaseballPCHiker
Jan 16, 2006

detectivemonkey posted:

It's too bad there's no more accurate way of estimating a loan payment than asking people what they pay and averaging that together.

Agreed. It's like the banking industry doesnt want to see people boat bound.


Nail Rat posted:

I'm noticing there's still no talk about maintenance costs. No talk at all. Whatever, I'll deal with it as it comes!

Pretty much. I of course will plan some of the yearly stuff and budget for that accordingly. Stuff like taking the boat out of the water to be serviced and cleaned every couple of years.

Veskit posted:

She's asking if the 8k is just 8 grand in his savings account and when spent it will leave him without any liquidity so if an emergency came up he's poo poo out of luck, or if he still has a nice enough savings cushion on top of being able to afford the boat.


If you don't have any savings after the downpayment then you can't really afford it.

The 8 grand is just for the boat. I have a little over $3k in my savings, and about $7k in my Roth that I could get if things got dire.


Nail Rat posted:

What about an amphibious RV?

http://www.camillc.com/terrawind.htm

Summer on the lake, migrate south for the winter. Take the highway or the river, whatever!

Holy poo poo thats awesome! Maybe I could get a used one.


r0ck0 posted:

Just 232 more payments and that wreck at the bottom of the lake is all mine.

One persons boat wreck is another persons fish-habitat/refuge eco-tourist trap.

Veskit
Mar 2, 2005

I love capitalism!! DM me for the best investing advice!

BaseballPCHiker posted:

The 8 grand is just for the boat. I have a little over $3k in my savings, and about $7k in my Roth that I could get if things got dire.

Just know citing your retirement fund as a backup for if poo poo gets real is usually the beginning of every bad budget thread. Also at this point you really should have a bigger retirement account than savings. You may want to consider moving the money around a bit, buffering your savings and retirement and then consider buying a boat home in spring 2017.

Also it's irresponsible as gently caress to hit the open lakes with 3k in your pocket and pray nothing happens to your boat.

Nail Rat
Dec 29, 2000

You maniacs! You blew it up! God damn you! God damn you all to hell!!

BaseballPCHiker posted:

Pretty much. I of course will plan some of the yearly stuff and budget for that accordingly. Stuff like taking the boat out of the water to be serviced and cleaned every couple of years.

Just so you know, this is stupid as hell. This would be dumb with a house, and a house can't easily sink and kill you (in most places). You should be figuring out if you need to expect to pay $100 or $400 per month on average, or whatever, because that's a big difference over 20 years (and you won't be able to offload your boat five years into your loan without taking a huge hit).

BaseballPCHiker
Jan 16, 2006

Veskit posted:

Just know citing your retirement fund as a backup for if poo poo gets real is usually the beginning of every bad budget thread. Also at this point you really should have a bigger retirement account than savings. You may want to consider moving the money around a bit, buffering your savings and retirement and then consider buying a boat home in spring 2017.

Also it's irresponsible as gently caress to hit the open lakes with 3k in your pocket and pray nothing happens to your boat.

That's just my roth which serves as a backup savings account. I'm fully vested already in a defined benefits pension and I have a separate 401k.

Nail Rat
Dec 29, 2000

You maniacs! You blew it up! God damn you! God damn you all to hell!!
A Roth isn't a backup savings account. Do you realize if you pull money out of there, you pay a 10% penalty on it?

Veskit
Mar 2, 2005

I love capitalism!! DM me for the best investing advice!

BaseballPCHiker posted:

That's just my roth which serves as a backup savings account. I'm fully vested already in a defined benefits pension and I have a separate 401k.

And?


You shouldn't use your roth as a backup savings account that's dumb as hell. Even if you had 3 million dollars in bonds feeding you 120k a year you still shouldn't use your Roth as a backup savings account.

Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Dec 22, 2005

GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS
You don't pay a penalty if you only access direct contributions and not earnings on those contributions. I'm assuming the OP is young and most of that IRA is direct contributions.

antiga
Jan 16, 2013

Make sure to ask the seller what he spends per year in maintenance and know that's the absolute lowest possible amount. I doubt electricity is really included in the docking fee or else someone would have docked the SS Bitcoin there by now and ruined it for everyone

Lots of things to be concerned about with a seller financing deal too but that's secondary to whether you can afford to cash flow the boat in the first place.

mike-
Jul 9, 2004

Phillipians 1:21

BaseballPCHiker posted:

Agreed. It's like the banking industry doesnt want to see people boat bound.


Pretty much. I of course will plan some of the yearly stuff and budget for that accordingly. Stuff like taking the boat out of the water to be serviced and cleaned every couple of years.


The 8 grand is just for the boat. I have a little over $3k in my savings, and about $7k in my Roth that I could get if things got dire.


Holy poo poo thats awesome! Maybe I could get a used one.


One persons boat wreck is another persons fish-habitat/refuge eco-tourist trap.

Banks aren't going to want to do long loans on a houseboat because it's incredibly risky. If you walk away on your boat loan the bank is stuck with a old houseboat that is probably going to be hard as hell to sell and requires a ton of maintenance in order to not sink.

I think your idea of term and rate seems pretty dubious to me. Why would someone seller finance a boat over 20 years? I imagine that the people who own houseboats are probably older, so it seems strange that someone would be ok with waiting 20 years to get paid for a 7% note.

slothzilla
Dec 19, 2003

Apartments are not that expensive in the twin cities. I pay less than 900 (utilities included) for a pet-friendly, one bedroom apartment by Lake of the Isles.

That isn't to say that you shouldn't buy the boat. You definitely should. To make extra money, build a basement cryotherapy chamber in the winter and in the summer you could use it for raising fish.

r0ck0
Sep 12, 2004
r0ck0s p0zt m0d3rn lyf

antiga posted:

Make sure to ask the seller what he spends per year in maintenance and know that's the absolute lowest possible amount. I doubt electricity is really included in the docking fee or else someone would have docked the SS Bitcoin there by now and ruined it for everyone

Lots of things to be concerned about with a seller financing deal too but that's secondary to whether you can afford to cash flow the boat in the first place.

SS bitcoin moored on lake sealand. I think we figured out this goon's real plan. This boat investment will really pay off, use lake water to cool the mining rigs all powered by free electricity from the marina.

Doc Hawkins
Jun 15, 2010

Dashing? But I'm not even moving!


Most floating homes are constructed and placed so that sinking isn't much of a risk. The one I lived in had a concrete hull and spent 90% of the day resting on the mud. It's like worrying your "mobile home" will be damaged in a traffic collision: not at all impossible, but less likely than you might think. Of course things do fall apart a little faster in a house on/in the water, but moderately maintained ones can be kept liveable for decades without major work.

Houseboats tend to be a slightly different story. They're more like an RV: more mobile in design, sharing parking and transit spaces with their less house-y cousins, more regular maintenance, even faster depreciation...

Theres also a fair number of people who live in plain-old-boats, but they're usually sailing the world or at least cruising the Bahamas. If you're the kind of person that appeals to, the work that a boat requires doesn't feel like work, and relegating yourself to a marginal existence doesn't feel like a step down. Also you are somewhere that requires almost zero climate-control.

If a mobile lifestyle appeals to you OP, I'd check out this guy's blog; it's not updated any more but it has a lot of advice.

Tots
Sep 3, 2007

:frogout:

Doc Hawkins posted:

Most floating homes are constructed and placed so that sinking isn't much of a risk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcU4t6zRAKg

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

detectivemonkey posted:

It's too bad there's no more accurate way of estimating a loan payment than asking people what they pay and averaging that together.

Someone would probably win a Nobel prize if they could crack that nut, I think.

The floating would-be neighbors are encouraging OP to live in a hobo boat so they can plunder his belongings after he freezes to death. It is both legal and encouraged under the laws of the sea.

defectivemonkey
Jun 5, 2012
Once they hit the limit on their propane budget they need a new source of fuel and whale blubber is hard to come by these days.

BaseballPCHiker
Jan 16, 2006

**UPDATE**

Well I went and looked at a pretty awesome boat this past weekend. It was the cheapest of all of them I had been looking at, listed price is under $20K but I could talk them down I think. Structurally the hull is in great shape and aluminum, the engine looks strong as well and the rest of the boat seems mechanically sound. The cabin needs a fair amount of work as it was in the middle of a renovation. I think that is a positive though as it allowed me to see more of the boat and hull structure. I also think it gives me a good opportunity to add insulation and reframe the interior.

So that was all of the good news. Bad news is that I cant get a loan for that small through the bank for a houseboat. They want the boat to be newer and to cost more to make it more profitable for them I guess. The owner can't do financing because he needs to move the boat fast he claims. The bank did say I could get a personal line of credit loan but the interest rate on that is like %7! I'll have to look at the numbers, that may still be OK because the loan amount will be for a lot less.

Also the girlfriend really flipped her poo poo about the boat. Now HATES the idea, tells me I need to think reasonably, worried about the dog, etc, etc. Mostly because I think she had her heart set on moving to Alaska or out West after finishing school. I tried telling her that I could just flip the boat quickly or rent it out and how much money I'd be saving in the interim. Then she complained about how cold it would be and how you cant do anything on the Mississippi river with a houseboat on and on. I honestly think her mind will change once she sees some of these boats though. I think she's envisioning more a pontoon style leisure boat and not a floating cabin on the water. We'll see.

My plan for the next couple of weeks is to secure financing if possible for the boat and to keep looking for other potential bargains.

spf3million
Sep 27, 2007

hit 'em with the rhythm
This thread as the potential to be amazing. Keep up the good work!

BaseballPCHiker
Jan 16, 2006

detectivemonkey posted:

Once they hit the limit on their propane budget they need a new source of fuel and whale blubber is hard to come by these days.

Shows what you know. The whale oil burns better.

antiga
Jan 16, 2013

Have you looked into renting a boat? That loan and refurbishment cost is going to eat up whatever you'd "save" by buying.

Comedy option: buy girlfriend SA account

r0ck0
Sep 12, 2004
r0ck0s p0zt m0d3rn lyf

BaseballPCHiker posted:

**UPDATE**

Also the girlfriend really flipped her poo poo about the boat. Now HATES the idea, tells me I need to think reasonably, worried about the dog, etc, etc. Mostly because I think she had her heart set on moving to Alaska or out West after finishing school. I tried telling her that I could just flip the boat quickly or rent it out and how much money I'd be saving in the interim. Then she complained about how cold it would be and how you cant do anything on the Mississippi river with a houseboat on and on. I honestly think her mind will change once she sees some of these boats though. I think she's envisioning more a pontoon style leisure boat and not a floating cabin on the water. We'll see.


Sever

Sundae
Dec 1, 2005

r0ck0 posted:

Sever the line and go floating off to adventure!

Fixed.


Please go buy a boat. The BFC collective demands entertainment (at your expense, quite literally). :munch:

Orthodox Rabbit
Jun 2, 2006

This game is perfect for empty-headed dunces that don't like to think much!! Of course, I'm a genius... I wonder why I'm so good at it?!
Why doesn't your girlfriend support your decision? Doesn't she understand that you've already thought through everything

Veskit
Mar 2, 2005

I love capitalism!! DM me for the best investing advice!
Come on girl


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfBwsG8ubFw

the holy poopacy
May 16, 2009

hey! check this out
Fun Shoe
What do banks and girlfriends know, anyhow? It's not like it's the loan officer's job to determine if a boat is a sound investment--what is he, the good use of money police?

BaseballPCHiker
Jan 16, 2006

Gabriel Pope posted:

What do banks and girlfriends know, anyhow? It's not like it's the loan officer's job to determine if a boat is a sound investment--what is he, the good use of money police?

The girlfriend will come around once she see's how cool the boat will be, that I'm not worried about. The bank is a bigger issue since I need some sort of financing to get this boat and start sleeping onboard the SS Savings. I guess I could take out a personal loan even at %7 and then just use my yearly bonus and tax return to pay that down more come this March. I'm in the process of contacting boat oriented loan companies, hopefully something good will come up through them.

r0ck0
Sep 12, 2004
r0ck0s p0zt m0d3rn lyf
Just get a canoe and a sleeping bag, If it starts to rain pull it up on the river bank and sleep under the canoe.

Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Dec 22, 2005

GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS
Why do you need a boat? Humans float you know. Just learn to sleep while floating on your back.

Veskit
Mar 2, 2005

I love capitalism!! DM me for the best investing advice!
What kind of permits do you need to live on a boat?

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defectivemonkey
Jun 5, 2012

Veskit posted:

What kind of permits do you need to live on a boat?

None. If anyone questions you then you can just take them on your cool boat and they'll come around.

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