Star Citizen: Big MoMA's House

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Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

Leaked Email from David Jensen regarding Star Citizen Development posted:

Edit: source: http://www.dereksmart.org/2015/09/star-citizen-the-long-con/

Why I�m Leaving CIG
Based on the quality bar that has been set for this project, a Star Citizen character takes me anywhere from 3-6 weeks to get in game. I have been working at CIG for 17 months. In that time I have completed exactly 5 characters. That�s 24 weeks at most.
So why is this?

Ingredients for Success

There are three main ingredients that are needed to produce quality characters for a project. These are concept, budget, and time.

To say it simply, a character is usually only as good as its concept, since it is the concept that defines the parameters of the execution of the character. There can certainly be bad models created from good concepts, but rarely do bad concepts produce good models. Since the concept is the biggest influence of the model, then it is of utmost importance that the concept doesn�t change once the model has been started. Rob and Megan are two very talented artists that have produced great concepts for us since I have been here. It�s when either these concepts are changed during model creation, or after model completion, that causes problems. This is when direction wants changes to the design of the character rather than the implementation of the concept.

There is an important distinction to be made about asset feedback. Different stages in the process require different types of feedback. If a concept gets approved, then the only feedback for the completed model should be about how well the concept was realized and the quality of the model (sculpt, textures). When the feedback on the model is about the design (�I don�t like the leg straps�) then the problem is with the concept, not the model. I have been doing this long enough to know that sometimes problems don�t come to the surface until after the model is created, sometimes things just don�t translate to 3D the way you expected. But this should be the exception, not the rule. This was a perpetual problem in my time here, a concept gets approved, and then unapproved after the model is created- concept level feedback on models.

In looking over the models of the FPS Marines and Pirates, it should be clear that some are better than others. The difference in quality? Concept. The Heavy Marine and Heavy Pirate had completed concepts that did not change through the building of the model. They are a balanced and polished piece of art as intended by the concept artist. The others? Their concepts changed repeatedly during the model building. They crawled to the finish line as Frankenstein assets, cobbled together by different artists. The next important factor is budget. Anyone who has worked in game art knows that quality is not measured in a vacuum. Quality only exists relative to the available budget- tris and pixels. You plan and build your character based on the budget you expect to have. When I started here, I was astounded to learn that no one was able to tell me the budget for character assets. People seemed to be operating under the mantra �It�s CryEngine, the budget is irrelevant� This attitude for game art production is suicide in a bottle. This apparently is still a difficult question to answer. In the absence of budget, Roberts judges all game assets against his own imagination or an asset in another game. Time is the last ingredient. When an artist is moved off and on an asset, the asset suffers. Staying in the �zone� on a character keeps the motivation high, the excitement stays constant and keeps the momentum constant for moving through the difficulties encountered. Your energy tends not to stall when you can go at an asset full bore through the life of the process. Very rarely did anything I worked on enjoy unbroken attention from me. I know there are always times when the project demands you to hop on something, put out a fire, but this has been a chronic problem during my time here. The Sataball Suit, the last asset we made, was met with satisfaction and praise. What was different? We started with a clear, approved concept, a clear budget, and were given the time to build the model. The methods for creating this model were completely traditional, no new pipeline. The pipeline was never the problem. The problem was not getting the three required ingredients. When we get what we need, we can shine.

Completion and Unapproval

The simple feeling of completing a task is something that we all take for granted. Whether it�s graduating with a degree or emptying the sink of dirty dishes, the feeling that you have actually done something (especially if it is difficult) gives your day, your week, or your life a sense of progression. You are moving forward and hopefully bettering your situation. We all thrive on the satisfaction of completing a task.

This is why redoing a task over and over again is so draining to the psyche. Now, to be clear- I expect to have to redo things at times. Sometimes the circumstances change, the asset becomes problematic, or the bar has been greatly raised by adjacent assets within the context of the game. Redoing something more than once? Repeatedly? Every asset? Repeatedly? It is clearly not about the asset or the artist. Several times since I have been here, I have had an asset approved by CR only to learn weeks or months later that he had decided that it wasn�t good enough. One production phenomenon that has become familiar to anyone working under Roberts is �Unapproval.� That is, when something that was previously approved becomes unacceptable later on in production for reasons known to Roberts only. It is usually based on whim or a nebulous quality bar that has shifted. When you get approval only to have it revoked later on, repeatedly, approval becomes meaningless. It is no longer a metric of progression. It does not energize or motivate you. It is met with apathy or cynicism. Redoing the same asset over and over again kills the spirit, and I suspect this was largely the reason the UK character team collapsed.

Ownership

It is essential that artists take ownership of their assets. It is what drives an artist, draws forth the best of their abilities, and makes them stick through the difficult points in the process of creation. There is nothing more satisfying for an artist than to look at a completed work and saying �I made that�. Ownership also makes it easy to know who is accountable for problems with the asset and forces artists to work in a clean and efficient manner that minimizes future problems because they know that they alone will be held responsible if their asset breaks something or looks bad. When assets are perpetually passed from artist to artist, especially if they are �ducktaping� work done by other artists, there is zero sense of ownership. You are the clean-up crew instead of the creator and this very quickly saps your motivation to do your best. Why? Well because you can�t really claim ownership. It wasn�t your asset. Authority and Responsibility When someone is hired for a position there is a direct ratio of the authority that they can expect to have, and the amount of responsibility that they will be expected to have. A junior level artist doesn�t expect to be able to make any real decisions on how things are done, but no one would hold them responsible if the pipeline or character art as a whole is sub-par. Conversely, a Lead should expect to have most of the control on pipeline and asset review, and for that privilege and trust they trade accountability for the pipeline efficiency and asset quality as a whole. Because they make larger scale decisions on the system, they a held accountable for what that system produces. It became clear within a matter of weeks of working at CIG, that all the decisions for the character pipeline and approach had been made- by Roberts. It became clear that this was a company-wide pattern- CR dictates all. Instead of articulating the standard for approval and allowing the team to develop the best methods to meet this bar, Roberts dictates what the method is, usually with a fraction of the knowledge that the employee has over their particular field. Then, when the plan or method fails to produce the results CR wants, the employee inevitable takes the blame, after all they are responsible for their corner of the game.

The Bus

When you have someone at the top who wants to make every decision but is accountable for no decisions he makes and is keen on publicly blaming those beneath him for those bad decisions, it creates an environment of people desperate to avoid that blame. Since no one can hold CR accountable, and they certainly don�t want to be made out at fault, they point fingers at anyone else. This breeds distrust and resentment among coworkers. I have been a victim of undue blame at times and am sure that I have thrown others under the bus as well.
Forrest Stephan (Remark: CG Supervisour at CIG, was before a Lead Technical Artist)

Forrest became involved in the character pipeline when it was decided to redo the FPS characters. I like Forrest on a personal level. I think he is a good guy at heart and is doing the best job he can with the experience and personality he has. His mandate from CR was to improve the look of the characters. So what is the problem? Experience and attitude. Forrest came into the character pipeline full force. He had already decided what was lacking for characters. Namely- the ship art pipeline and techniques. He was not concerned with budget and memory. He was not concerned with time. He wanted what CR wanted- great looking screenshots. He dismissed my concerns about the time it will take to do characters like ships, tri count, and memory. He told me that I didn�t know how to model characters (after eight years of doing this). Forrest is very green, but more importantly it is obvious that he does not know how to deal with conflict or even disagreement. Putting someone with so little experience in games and no experience with characters in charge of the character team was frankly insulting. Billy and I spent a month undoing many of the ship techniques that Forrest had insisted on- mostly multiple materials and how the UVs were laid out. I wouldn�t expect someone at Forrest�s experience level to know what is common sense to anyone who has shipped a title. That is-plan for the game, not for screenshots and know that you will have less memory than you think. Forrest made every rookie mistake in the book in his charge, but what was worse is that he mowed down anyone who challenged his naive assumptions with insults and dismissal. With CR at his back, he stomped around like a child wearing his Father�s boots. Convincing Forrest that he might be wrong about something is a campaign in itself. Forrest might have value from his contributions to other areas of the art, but his involvement with characters was wasteful in time and effort, and absolutely corrosive to moral. He is simply the wrong man for the job and is one of my biggest reasons for leaving.

The Elephant in the room

Visions are cheap. Ideas are cheap. A good leader is not simply someone with a vision or a great idea. A good leader not only has the vision, but they can communicate that visionto the team, and more importantly they inspire and energize the team members with that vision. Chris Roberts might have a vision but he can�t communicate it. And therefore, no one on the team knows what it is. This is known to every team member, certainly of the art team. Roberts is not an artist and it is clear he is not a visual communicator. The basic understanding of macro vs micro, what is essential to the piece and what is not, completely escapes him. Everything is of equal importance- the laces on the boot are just as important as the overall value pallet and silhouette, in many cases more. This is indicative of Robert�s extreme lack of understanding of the most basic of artistic principals. That level of ignorance and lack of visual depth for an artist would be problematic, but for someone at a director level, it is absolutely crippling to a project.

Robert�s deficit wouldn�t be much of a problem if he trusted the vision of the art directors, people who are actually artist and have directed other artists. But he doesn�t, insisting that he is the only one who can direct the artists. I suspect this is an issue of ego, a man intent on appearing like a visionary. But regardless, the results so far have been disastrous, rife with perpetual rework, wasted time, and mass frustration. No one can buy into CR�s artistic vision because no one, including CR, seems to know what it is.

So the one thing that no one discusses is the biggest problem. Roberts is someone who on a company- wide level is always feared, but never respected. His direction is met with nervous compliance to his face, and rolled-eyed resentment behind his back. When his orders are articulated later to the rest of the team, and basic questions of logic and practicality are inevitable asked, they are met not with an explanation of why CR�s idea is a good one, but the importance of his happiness. The explanation is always the same- �I know it makes no sense, but that�s what CR wants�. This team is filled with people who have experience publishing other titles. Lots. We all know how it is �supposed� to be done. But everyone is faced with the same repeated dilemma, a choice- make CR happy or do what works for the game? Short term survival vs long term wins. And unfortunately it�s the survival option that wins out, mainly because turning away from a directive of CR is a recipe for unemployment.

I am only speaking from one corner of this project, but I know that the micro managerial frustration experience is an epidemic at CIG. Everyone seems to be unhappy for the exact same reason. I don�t foresee anything changing at CIG if Roberts doesn�t change himself. And this is a shame because the company has all the ingredients to do something truly great, if only they would be allowed to do it.

This letter pretty much explains all the problems with Star Citizen.

Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Oct 26, 2015

# ¿ Oct 26, 2015 02:01

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# ¿ May 4, 2024 03:30

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

TheLastRoboKy posted:

Usually when a game with so much attention starts to trainwreck you see everyone get really excited and a lot of people get really invested in the eventual crash. What usually ends up happening is things slow down, interesting information comes at a trickle, and it all ends with a whimper.

Star Citizen is such goddamn rollicking high-speed clusterfuck I'm not even sure I'm still riding on the same train I got on at when I decided to see how this game was progressing about a month or so ago. Every time it seems like things are going to slow down the train just slips onto another track and starts picking up pace again with a life of its own. A lot of people poke their heads in and want to know why the gently caress everyone is so interested in this game that will never be, and honestly there's no way to sum it all up without missing lots of stuff and people just piling on the things like "Oh and the HR/Marketing person (who is the wife of the CEO) was sending someone who was vocally critical of the game's slow progress screencaps of his SA forum posts."

Don't forget the ten year ban for dissenting on a completely different forum. Or the hilarious connection to the failed Gizmondo which was a money laundering scam.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2015 02:09

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

Im_drunk posted:

I truly feel bad for anyone who has to work in a place like that. I'm assuming their future employers are going to look at Star Citizen and roll their eyes. If it is this bad, these devs are hosed whether they walk or stay - and I doubt CIG has fostered any kind of long term employment goals for its employees.

Some of the people who left got jobs at places like Blizzard and such, so if they get out now they might be good. Some just need a job, unfortunately. I can't imagine it is a pleasant place in any capacity.

peter gabriel posted:

Or the poo poo game that's poo poo

It would be, if there was a game

# ¿ Oct 26, 2015 02:16

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

chaosbreather posted:

It truly is evergreen. It's the most magical thing.

It really is. Also, make sure you use different forum names if you are a Star Citizen backer (lol, loving why) and post dissent otherwise they will ban you for a billion million years like Scientology contracts.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2015 02:19

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

Sushi in Yiddish posted:

Star Citizen is a cornucopia of poo poo and it's harvest time baby

I never thought this non-game would be as good as any game

drat Dirty Ape posted:

This thread is full of suppressive people imo.

I know. I myself have gotten two people (one indirectly) to remove their money from this poo poo.

chaosbreather posted:

So you're saying, hypothetically, one could just register forum accounts with the names of Star Citizen backers, post post post and the backers would get banned?

Fascinating.

It is quite the possibility, yes. They are actively reading and archiving these threads.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2015 02:30

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

Potato Salad posted:

Derek Smart

Derek Smart

DEREK SMART

What happened that gave Derek Smart the keys to the kingdom?

He basically brought the whole thing into the public sphere that were simmering the whole time. Derek Smart wrote a thing on his blog, newsites went 'lol look at this Derek Smart says poo poo', Escapist then went and published something with their own sources which went 'hey, this might be true'. Then, Chris Roberts sent a long, rambling public rant about Derek Smart and The Escapist, threatening to sue. Basically what CR did was prove the project was in trouble, because a healthy company doesn't let its CEO do that. Also they are never going to sue because their financials would be part of discovery and that is the last thing they want.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2015 03:51

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

Lastgirl posted:

I've had a long cynical history with mmo development starting with something obscure called Face Of Mankind. It was supposed to be basically Deus Ex the MMO but its a long and complicated story but the essential "over-ambitious" developer bit off more than he could chew and fired half his staff bringing what was once a potential goldmine to a completely obscure game nobody will ever hear of, deservedly so.

When I first heard of Star Citizen in 2012 after the wake of the FoM revival that was basically a server hosting scam run by NeXeon, which is another long complicated story, I saw Chris Roberts being basically the next Marko Dieckmann of Face of Mankind. I just knew this was an a very ambitious project and I was never going to back it. In fact I've never backed any kickstarter for the very reason that it could just be another server hosting scam with vaporware, which is what any game can essentially be during this kickstarter era.

When you get to a neurotic wishy-washy level of ambition, it's never gonna go anywhere lol and that's how I view Chris Roberts, despite how very little I know about him or read up on him. All the signs are right there.

I'm just chiming in here because of the potential litigation, even though I don't really care much for Derek Smart or his bad games, At least someone will fight when someone should have fought for Face of Mankind being turned into a flat out scam. I'm just at the point where I'm fascinated to see this clusterfuck of a car pile up with trains colliding and planes falling out of the sky into the same spot ontop of a giant Armageddon tier meteorite breaking through the ozone on this sweet spot. Everything's pretty much aligned with the stars and I just wonder what's gonna happen to the kickstarter era once Star Citizen incurs such a heavy mass from all the millions it piled up. Will it become an inverse blackhole and tear itself apart? Only time will tell friend.

Here's what you need to know about Chris Roberts. He made a very successful franchise of video games (Wing Commander) which ended in 1996, Roberts always wanted to make movies and prodcued and wrote the horrific 'Wing Commander' movie which was directed by Roberts himself. It was such trash its not even a fun bad movie (well, except maybe the scene where someone gets pushed off a spaceship by a space bulldozer and the Robert's 'Thumbs up!'. That's about it). It was also nepotism in that he founded a studio called Digital Anvil, which did the effects for it. They released one game (Starlancer) in 2000 which was pretty good.

Here is where modern Roberts begins. He announced Freelancer in 1999 and said it would be available by 2000. Due to feature creep, general mismanagement (the project overshot development projections by a year and a half) it was thought of to be vaporware (Sound familiar?). Microsoft bought Digital Anvil and Roberts was basically kicked off the project and remained a consultant. It was extremely different than what was pitched, but it was good and actually got released. He then left the gaming industry for movies. He broke a contract with Kevin Costner, the subsequent lawsuit bankrupted his production company which had to be sold off. He then returned to gaming in 2011, after not having been in the industry for over a decade.

In other creative industries, this typically isn't a problem. Terrence Malick left film for twenty years before coming back to do 'The Thin Red Line', which was nominated for seven academy awards. This is because you can shoot films old school and still be good. With gaming, tech changes at a lightning pace. For example, cards when Freelancer came out were clocked at 375MHz for core and memory (Radeon 9900). To overcome this, obviously you hire people with decades of industry experience. He did this, but never listened to them. He basically has not evolved from his 'Freelancer' mindset, except this time there is no Microsoft to bail him out. The question is, would anyone want to bail him out if possible? What are the legal responsibilities for someone who takes over the project? Do they have to honor every promise CRoberts put in? Do they have to even honor the MMO portion if they just want to make Squadron 42 and wash their hands of everything else? I suspect there's a lot of legal wrangling involved.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2015 06:09

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

For anyone wondering wtf is the connection between Gizmondo and Star Citizen, I wrote up an article here:

http://pastebin.com/DDeWufw2

# ¿ Oct 26, 2015 13:11

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

D_Smart posted:

There is no way anyone is going to bail him out. Not this time. The industry has changed, the liability is too high - and all this noise isn't going to help.

Publishers won't touch this and only an investor who wants to burn money, would touch this going forward.

Sure, they could probably get loans based on revenue. But guess what, the moment they do that - and it shows up in the financials; now there's a problem of explaining why that was needed and where did the crowd-funded money go. Trust me, this is why they're not likely to show these financials outside of court action.

Yeah, that is kind of what I figured. It is too much of goddamn mess and they probably don't want their financial info exposed.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2015 20:52

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

So, I did a thing:

Dead Game Blues posted:

The 'verse is on fire, and there's no captain at the helm
And the stars are all blurred with a thousand cultist suicides
And a Derek Smart howls

CIG is corrupt
And we're on so many drugs
With the starcon on and the refunds ignored

We're trapped in the belly of this horrible game
And the game is bleeding to death

The brown sea has been washed away
And the goons are all leering
And the funding is dead at the bottom of the graph

It went like this:

The jpegs tumbled in on themselves
Whales clutching concept art
Picked through the pixels
And tore up their concierge cards

The 'verse was beautiful on fire
All broken dreams stretching upwards
Everything awash in lies that were false promises

I said to Sandi, "Kiss me, you're beautiful -
We milked these nerds for everything, it is truly the last days."

You ripped out my pubes
And we scammed everyone
Like a ponzi scheme
Or a Gizmondo

We woke up one morning in a non-extradition country
For sure it's the valley of wealth

I open up my wallet
And it's full of tears

It is crap but the crap Star Citizen deserves.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2015 21:01

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

Haha they are deleting the Space Buggy gifs. What's that shitheads? Don't want the world to know you were that loving stupid for buying a four year old pre alpha? Also if it is just a pre alpha now, that means 3 more years at minimum dumbfucks. Nobody else but you idiots will fund this poo poo for that long. Keep buying those jpegs, see you in the verse, the most generic setting as possible!

# ¿ Oct 27, 2015 01:40

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

drat Dirty Ape posted:

Those were the only gifs that made this game look like it could be any fun at all.

Don't you get it? It wasn't the right kind of fun. The 'verse is for mature gamers! And it's filled with rape. My god, it's filled with rape. That's how you know it's for pirates. Because of all the rape.

# ¿ Oct 27, 2015 01:43

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

The thing that gets me the most is the sheer hypocrisy in the whole thing. If EA or any other gaming company had done something like this (selling concept art with no release date for a game that kept getting pushed back and was still pre-alpha after four years in development) people would be asking for the CEO's head and threatening lawsuits. But no, CRoberts is somehow different! For....absolutely no discernible reason. Even though his last game had to be taken away from him and hasn't done anything in the industry in over a decade. The crowdfunded excuse doesn't fly, you are still a gaming company.

And they wonder why they get called cultists.

# ¿ Oct 27, 2015 20:09

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

D_Smart posted:

^this

Seriously, it's just that backer pool is so massive that it is bound to have attracted some of the worst of the worst in gaming. You know, those loons we avoid on game servers and forums like the plague. When you combine that with Sunk Cost Fallacy and Cognitive Dissonance, you have the perfect recipe for rear end-clowns.

I have seriously never seen a worse community on the internet. It is not an exaggeration since I used to play LOL and I still play Dota 2 (get called a oval office in 10 languages!) and it is like barbie princess maker in comparison, with threat assessments and trying to ruin people's lives.

It is like the sunk cost fallacy on steroids, they just keep pumping money into it because they pumped so much money into it already. Also I do thank you for bringing this poo poo up, since it is endlessly entertaining and it saved brother some money since he was a backer awhile ago and I convinced him to get a refund (and now convinced a friend with hundreds in to pull out as well).

# ¿ Oct 27, 2015 21:20

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

Just keep reposting images from Star Citizen reddit here, they're just punching their own dick at this point

# ¿ Oct 27, 2015 21:50

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

HexDog posted:

What's the name of the movie company that some of the refunds are coming from?

Why have so many companies been created around star citizen and such? Are all game companies structured this way?

Samuel Elms runs a financial thing, so he might be operating a lot of companies. Not to mention CRoberts wants to be in Hollywood more than anything else. Either they are pulling money from other companies because that is where it was sent or they are creating more debt because they have a cash flow problem. And lol no. Some gaming companies have subsidiaries but you typically get the refund from company proper.

# ¿ Oct 27, 2015 22:14

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

Fooma posted:

Guys, please stop. if you keep encouraging refunds and questioning CIG, they won't have funds to make the game. Things would have been perfectly fine if you all had just stayed quiet, but now with bad publicity and less funds things are going to be even more delayed and they have to resort to more creative ways to get funding. This could have been successful! Everyone's free to spend their money how they want so just enjoy the dream that costs you nothing. you stirred up the crazies, that exist in every community, which have spoiled it for the silent majority. If you have nothing nice to say don't say anything at all.

Telling people to get their money out of a promising Kickstarter that has devolved into the most pathetic Ponzi scheme in history run by an incompetent egomaniac is a loving public service.

The community is a bunch of sad deluded nerds buying jpegs for something that doesn't exist and don't have the backbone and balls to say 'What the gently caress are you doing with my money'. They are sycophants who silence any questions. I am not shedding any tears for the spineless, cult like community

# ¿ Oct 28, 2015 00:50

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

Virgin Madsen is the sole eyewitness to the shooter on the grassy knoll. When she shouted, "That's him in the Wheelchair!" She was taken away by the men in black, never to be seen again.

# ¿ Oct 28, 2015 20:07

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

Does Alpha 2.0 even have a release date now or is it 'soon' or 'eventually' or 'two weeks'? Is it coming out before or after SQ42 with :gary:

? I still don't see how them losing a bunch of people as they are going into a second version of a loving alpha is a good thing. Typically you shed people at the end of a game when all you really need is bug testing and art stuff before you launch it. Not when you are in alpha and you need to get revved up to get poo poo done to go into beta. Its goddamn delusional. "Oh, everything is ok! They are just shedding dead weight!" Yeah, because when a company is shedding employees when it needs them at a crucial point is always a good sign.

Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Oct 31, 2015

# ¿ Oct 31, 2015 09:26

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

KiddieGrinder posted:

CIG needs to do like Blizzard did and literally tell people not to waste all their money on jpegs. Blizzard did something where they told players to "enjoy all things in moderation, even World of Warcraft", or something to that effect, which was a nice touch. Chris Roberts is the opposite, he just wants more and more.

The reason why they don't is because they desperately need the money. Any healthy company would (well most). Either because they care about their consumers or because if someone blows their life savings and then their wife leaves and they kill themselves, that would be bad PR. I think CIG legit doesn't give a gently caress about these rubes. Except they do it through a forced smile than outright contempt like Games Workshop.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2015 23:38

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

XK posted:

I think the most rational explanation is that Chris Roberts is high on his own supply. When or even if he realizes it doesn't really matter anymore, it's already too late.

True, he just thinks he is a creative visionary and his word is law. The problem is that the creative medium he is working in isn't a one man operation anymore. His fan base just reinforces that notion with the silencing of even the smallest amount of dissent. And he will never realize he was the problem. He will place the blame on everyone but his inner circle. His ego is simply too big.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2015 00:28

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

Phil Burn posted:

What I don't get is WHY Roberts is considered such a visionary. For an "Ideas Man", his ideas seem pretty loving generic to me.

There is literally no reason. He has not been successful in 15 years. Microsoft had to boot his stupid rear end off the last game project he was on in order to ship the loving thing and cut a ton of the crap he wanted. It turned out a great game in spite of Chris Roberts, not because of him. He was butthurt by this and clearly wanted to make movies anyway, so he left the industry. This is the first thing he's done in over a decade. The hero worship of CRoberts is completely unjustified. He hasn't been relevant in gaming for a long time and he's still operating under the 1980s assumption that a very small group of people can produce great things and everyone else can gently caress off. Nostalgia is one hell of a drug along with the laughable promise that this game will be everything to everyone and it will be the only game you need to play for the rest of your life. He's a washed-up, used car salesman bilking money from desperate nerds who are ruining their own lives over a fantasy. Its just like those guys ignorant about stocks buying up the poo poo some boiler room fraud sells them, thinking that they'll get rich off of it. Instead of exploiting people's greed, he's exploiting...I don't know what, their dreams?

And he got booted out of Hollywood because he thought he could break contract with an Oscar-winning actor and think people would still work with him. I gather once he got the money he thought he could do both: make a 10 hour movie and make his dream game that Microsoft 'ruined'. Except he's doing it in the most incompetent fashion possible. I've got no respect for CRoberts, just like other cons. Whether it was intentional or unintentional, it doesn't matter anymore.

No game that has ever had what Star Citizen has happened to it (missed every deadline, delays, no concrete release of anything, glitchy demos, bad whispering before the game even comes out) has ever ended well. Not one. Just because Chris Roberts made some great games thirty years ago doesn't justify this devotion and lack of accountability. And there is nothing in his past history that he can overcome this. In fact, there's more evidence that he can't rather than can.

Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Nov 1, 2015

# ¿ Nov 1, 2015 01:54

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

D_Smart posted:

He's not a creative visionary. There isn't anyone that I know in the industry that regards him as such. The disinformation comes from the usual Wing Commander hyperbole.

He is as creative as all of us gamedev artistes are. And the only game that he has ever done and which earned him that "creative visionary" tag, is Wing Commander. If you ignore the movie that is.

True. For reference, I think 'creative genius' is a load of bullshit. It is incredibly, agonizingly rare for a single person to be a genius on that level. Either they had circumstances limiting them which forced them to improvise or work around them or one hell of a creative team to help. There are always people around. This is especially true in team based arenas. You can have literary and music geniuses because they are a largely solo creative endeavor, but trying to claim it in a team oriented environment just makes you an rear end in a top hat.

alphabettitouretti posted:

A reminder that failing to file accounts is a criminal offence.

Karl and the rest of the faithful, what's your opinion on Foundry 42 breaking the law and having to spend backer money on fines because they cannot or do not want to follow simple laws? Does this make you think they have something to hide re finances or is it simply incompetence and/or laziness?

They'll just make up some magical bullshit that they're too busy or some other stupid loving poo poo. They're defending a company that has missed every single deadline without fail and offered up nothing in response. And the poo poo they have offered up has been horribly broken or is constantly being re-worked.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2015 00:24

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

Young Freud posted:

I recall when Ortwin wrote his demand letter to the Escapist that he CCed two lawyers, one of which it turned out was handling Foundry 42's business specifically with the British regulations like the Companies House. They literally have people working on it, but the fact that nothing is done means they were hired to stonewall the regulators, as well as advise them to paying the fines since it's cheaper to do that than disclose their entire operation.

That speaks wonderfully to their long term plans. Anyone stonewalling regulators is surely doing legal things and making sure their entire operation is completely clear and easy to follow.

Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Nov 2, 2015

# ¿ Nov 2, 2015 03:15

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

janssendalt posted:

hey guys and goons
this game is coming out
and it's going to be the best

So...from alpha to product in a year? Alright then.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2015 11:05

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

Bootcha posted:

Hahahahaha.

Hey Karl. Let me vette.

I got a WC FMV helmet prop. A gift from Lesnick for making sure he was comfortable and welcome in Austin. poo poo I still have his wife's desert plants she game me too.
I asked CR about his movie industry credentials at the GDC reveal. Somehow, that seems pertinent.
I was there all day and night at the 24 hour "end-of-funding" (hahaha) livestream. I provided the champagne, CR's milk for his espresso, and several other food runs to keep everyone going.
I'm in the picture of "The Pledge". You remember this thing?

I did the stage management at the first CitCon in Austin alongside Viewmaster.
I was on Wingman's Hangar. And I did a lot of production assistance whenever they needed it.
Dr. Hawk interviewed me long long long ago, ID'ed as one of THE INVESTORS. It was no big deal back then.
I AM THE ONE WHO LAMPS.

I was, and still am to a certain extent, one of the spergiest Wing Commander spergs. I kinda consider myself Patient Zero to this whole Star Citizen thing.

And yet I feel something is wrong. Something wrong enough to warrant action.

Karl, you need to ask yourself a question and you need to think long and deep in that tiny brain of yours. What gaming project needed a fan to snitch on somebody on a completely separate forum, whose only crime was badmouthing the product, to someone important who makes seven figures and actually have that person loving listen to them? If you'd answer none, you'd be correct you gibbering idiot. They only care because it is hurting their bottom line, it is making people get refunds and charge-backs and hurting their ship sales. Not to mention the fact that your lord and savior Chris Roberts was caught in yet another lie after a massive string of them. Maybe buying another jpeg will ease the burn.

G0RF posted:

If you're being ironic, ignore the following correction.

No, that's how "game development" works when you work for Molyneux. Roberts, or other 'visionaries' with pathological inclinations towards scope runaway and over-promising. And it's a formula for generating maximum short-term hype and the expense of long-term credibility, and their legacies are built on one success in the distant past, followed by a string of failures.

Well run gaming studios don't have histories of talking up all the feature-sets before they've even locked basic mechanics of play. Well run studios don't talk about their games before they've moved past internal alpha stage development and are well-into beta. Some don't even talk about them until they're in QA stage doing the bugsmashing on a game they've not yet announced and have previously refused to confirm is in development. Like these guys.

And crowdfunding is no excuse. Harebrained demonstrated exactly the kind of discipline and restraint that Chris has always lacked in their latest Battletech kickstarter. No stretch goals, promises NOT to expand scope beyond what they were pitching. Their project was in fact a passive-aggressive rebuke of Chris Roberts, and the digs made at Star Citizen are hardly subtle, because Harebrained knows the damage that folks like Chris Roberts and Peter Molyneux cause for the reputation of the industry at large.

Pretty much. Everyone is tired of Molyneux's poo poo. I used to think of him as like a giddy five year old, but it turns out he's just a loving idiot who can't limit himself. After this goes down, I don't think CRoberts would be able to work in the industry again. At least he won't be able to attract the level of talent he has. Because once it fails, everyone will know how hosed he is for a boss and a project lead and only the most desperate or deluded to work for him. Hell, I bet the rumors are rampant even now. Nobody is going to want to work for a guy that is awful and destroyed a 90 million dollar project all by himself. Though I would bet loving money after this poo poo burns up (and if nobody goes to jail or gets sued into oblivion), there will still be die-hards eager to fellate CRoberts and pledge to another Kickstarter, even if they'd be the only retards to do so.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2015 21:05

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

D_Smart posted:

2016 is the mad rush to get a scaled down version of EP1 of SQ42 out. Depending on how much they want to cut, it probably won't happen. Which is why they are currently hiring more people at Foundry 42 because all bets are now being placed on SQ42.

Then I hear today that, amid all this, Croberts is still doing mocap shoots. Seriously.

Something will be released in 2016. It will be Chris Roberts magnum opus digital film, Squadron 42. It will show Hollywood they were fools to reject him. He will put his brilliant storytelling on display. Maybe it will have a mission or two, but the film will be there.

But seriously, if Rome were burning to the ground, what would Roberts care about more? Getting some hacked together piece of crap out or using that sweet sweet mocap footage to try and ply his way back into Hollywood? (Or even send them a laughable 'gently caress you') It is absurd to think about, but this whole loving thing is insane. Look at citcon, how much time was spent on mocap and that absurd script.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2015 23:00

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

Again with those stupid loving analogies to game companies. Those companies had multiple games behind them and were constantly taking in cash. From games and other poo poo.

CIG has no other games, it is living only by morons who buy ever increasing expensive jpegs.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2015 23:25

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

It honestly doesn't matter if Derek files or not, or if its disappointing. Star Citizen is still a crock of loving poo poo and you have to be deluded to think that something is not completely hosed with it right now.

# ¿ Nov 3, 2015 06:37

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

CrazyTolradi posted:

But Croberts said Derek Smart threatens the project, it must be true!

Technically he is a threat, because he has inspired people to look closer at it and garner refunds. And as time goes on and more and more poo poo he says comes true, more people will begin to look and refund their money or hold back on buying new poo poo. A Ponzi scheme needs constant income, it needs to be fed as much as possible the bigger it grows. It is a gigantic, all devouring cancer that eventually kills everyone. Tightening off possible sources of cash will kill it faster and basically that's what SC has become, a gigantic ponzi scheme that sells jpeg instead of stock. It has produced nothing tangible but buggy poo poo in 4 years and 90+ million dollars. The less eyes on that fact the better. If investors and whales start getting cold feet, that's even loving worse than people who weren't paying attention getting their $50 bucks out. CRoberts might not believe he is in a ponzi scheme that he is funding his 'vision', but that's pretty much how he is operating.

The lawsuit is small potatoes, if it even ever happens and I don't really care if Derek files or not (if he does, more entertainment. If not, oh well. It doesn't invalidate anything. Though he'll probably get endless amounts of poo poo for it). Even if it does get filed, it can get tied up in court for years or thrown out. Lawsuits take a long, long time. I don't doubt that if it is filed, CIG will attempt to delay it until Star Citizen is released with every promised feature. (IE: heat death of the universe).

# ¿ Nov 3, 2015 06:50

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

Jegan Ace posted:

Is there seriously anyone left in this thread that isn't on the "Star Citizen up in flames" bandwagon? I'm a backer and I share that sentiment.

I'm trying to highlight that dickriding Derek Smart's bag of hot air isn't any better than signing over your property and spouse to Croberts. They are both awful.

No idea. But you can't look at selling of jpeg ships that has gotten more and more expensive (15k for a package is not only insane, it is unscrupulous and hypocritical. If this were ANY other studio, there would be car fires outside of their headquarters as nerds came with pitchforks), absolutely no deadlines met in three years, nothing remotely close to even a single player segment at this point, :gary:

, still pre-alpha (2-3 years left minimum) and go 'Hm, this seems like it is going to be good.' Unless you are a redditor or a fan boy, of course.

Derek Smart is like the grandfather of poo poo posting/flame wars, so its kind of to be expected. Plus, its still fun to watch. And Derek is better than CRoberts. He isn't running a ponzi scheme or exploiting people with blatant lies or making people empty their kids college fund and risk their relationships or mortgages or letting them buy jpegs over buying food. CRoberts promises you the world and sells you a jpeg. Everyone knows what they're getting into when they buy a Derek Smart game.

# ¿ Nov 3, 2015 07:21

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

Karl_Ramseier posted:

Now I spilled my coffee over the whole bed.
That's him with the espresso!

So they got their early investors to play the waiters? That's perhaps why people spend thousands of dollars on spaceship pics. "Here, please sign this contract. Ah yes the money, thanks. Now please could you serve me an espresso? And go buy some beer."

If this is real, you're the biggest idiot I ever came across. I can't stop laughing. But hey this raess guy in the forum tend to believe you, perhaps I should tell him about this new discovery.

Ok, let's get this straight:
A public picture is proof for you being an investor? That might be enough for DS, but not for me. Why don't you show us the signed contract? This shouldn't matter anyway after you identified yourself and acknowledged that Sandi is a racist motherfucking bitch.
If they don't slap you in the face for what you did here they never ever won't.
But please just bring me the milk, would you?

You are a person that buys jpegs and have the critical thinking and reasoning skills of a small retarded child. Bootcha can post a picture of copy paper that he wiped his rear end with after an all you can eat at Taco Bell and it would still hold more weight than anything you post because:

Wise Learned Man posted:

I especially like Karl's theory that Bootcha's posts about Star Citizen going back 3+ years—including photos of him using his pickup to cart around Wing Commander movie set pieces for Lesnick (IIRC; it was so long ago)—were all just an elaborate long con in the event that the project went south.

Sound reasoning there.

Also, you really should seek mental help because you are the prime candidate for suicide when this demented fantasy you call a game fails. Though you just might be that special brand of delusional that buys whatever the con is selling and fully refuses to admit he was conned. You just might be too stupid for the shame to overcome you. That's a special kind of stupid that you should be proud of.

# ¿ Nov 3, 2015 09:31

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

D_Smart posted:

Precisely.

And I've said this over and over again, lawsuit or not, accountability is going to come in some form or another. If nothing else, those who want their money back, have been getting it as a result of all this. And that's all funded by the JPEG ships they keep selling to hapless whales.

Pretty much, yeah. Still, you stirring poo poo brought it to my attention. I had no idea what was going on (I actually thought they stopped selling ships awhile ago. How little I knew). It saved my brother some cash as he got his money out after I told him what was going on. And I don't doubt that other people have done the same after your blog posts.

And even if your lawsuit doesn't happen for whatever reason, you are right. You simply can't take this amount of money and screw people without consequences.

# ¿ Nov 3, 2015 17:08

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

Agrajag posted:

lucky for me someone made it one click away for me, a couple of years ago (i think), to see what CIG is up to if I wanted to

Nice. I was never really interested in the thing so I never paid much attention but the sheer absurdity and hilarity of this whole thing has provided endless entertainment.

It still boggles my mind that people put so much faith in this guy and are completely unable to pull back and look at this objectively. And it is the worst gaming community on the internet that doesn't even have a loving game.

# ¿ Nov 3, 2015 19:28

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

So what exactly does Bootcha get by pretending to be an investor for 3 years? That's the most pathetic loving thing someone could do (though the SC true believers are pathetic enough to do it) and says more about the person who does it than the people who believe it.

What's the end game? 'lol, totally pranked you!' 'You wasted 3 years of your life on this and Star Citizen is still a pile of poo poo.' There has to be a scam or a turn-around, like in Eve. Pretending to be an investor does nothing and you look doubly retarded when the project inevitably burns to the ground.

These people have the worst critical thinking skills, but what do you expect from people who buy jpegs?

# ¿ Nov 4, 2015 01:53

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

Amarcarts posted:

I read Derek's latest blog post. It was so darn informative! I knew this game would never be as good as promised or come out on time with all the features. Anybody can tell from the promotional materials they've released that they've got an out-of-date steaming pile of crap on their hands. What I didn't know was just how financially shady a lot of the major players involved in this seem to be. I'd always been in the camp that CR was not a good manager but nevertheless well-meaning, but some of the people he's with seem almost like ACTUAL con men.

I read the blog post and I did enjoy it (though I might be biased since Derek used the article I wrote, but I don't care!)

# ¿ Nov 5, 2015 06:48

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

AP posted:

That's absolutely incredible, they are building another movie studio and all the private offices for everyone important (Disco Lando, no office).

How much does all that poo poo cost? Also lol at the coding area being two desks and movie production being half the floor space.

It creates the appearance of success. 'Look, we have this shiny new office and all this cool poo poo!' It convinces diehards that everything is fine and dandy, why would they be spending this money if they weren't ok?

But when you look at it deeper, it is an oriental rug hiding a rotting enterprise. They have no product. Their funding levels will only decrease from here on out as they only have their community left, as I doubt there will be tons of new backers. They are making a move to one of the most expensive real estate markets in the country with no deadline for a product. There isn't even an indication that the skeleton of the game promised is there. Just disparate modules. Not even SQ42 showed a mission, just walking and talking. They are banking their profit model on mobile FtP games, except there isn't even a game. Just ships, with no indications of balance or function. Ponzi schemes have a habit of collapsing unpredictability, so it could go on still for awhile.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2015 22:48

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

My question is: why do they have an in house mocap studio? They spent millions upon millions of dollars mocapping actors for two months and god knows how many man hours loving around with the data and models to make them functional. They also hired a studio in Manchester to do this for them.

Are they going to be taking on work for other studios for more revenue? Will they offer movies mocap services? If not and it is just for SC, then loving why do you have so much mocap in a space sim and what is the point of having one in house when you hired a studio in Manchester which is probably loving cheaper than making your own from scratch?

The mind truly boggles.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2015 23:09

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

Agrajag posted:

imagine the cost of headhunting the guys that will be working in their new mocap studio

Yeah, especially with cost of living in that area. You can't hire guys for crap money, so why they are doing it is just :psyduck:

Hezzy posted:

Clearly they're going to syndicate an online Star Citizen show and charge people for it

I honestly would not be surprised with them releasing SC mocapped shorts and selling episodes for a game that doesn't exist.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2015 23:16

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# ¿ May 4, 2024 03:30

Dapper Dan: Dec 16, 2004; Can't post for 3 years!

AP posted:

Pretty sure they'll do anything they can just to get Hollywood types through the door.

skaboomizzy posted:

Why would the guy who aches to be a big player in Hollywood build a mocap studio in LA?

Why indeed?

Yeah, it makes the most sense. I can imagine it being their end game or safety net when everything else goes to poo poo. If it is their end game and SC is unreleased or falls apart, its some nerve screwing people out of nearly 100 mill and thinking that it wouldn't have consequences. Though there are tons of mocap studios with massive experience already so that might be hard. You would have to spend big money to poach people.

Raskolnikov posted:

They could sell water Chris spit into and the true believers would buy it up. Sickos.

"Chris's Spit Water, LTI, $20 Shipped, Quantity 5/5."

The amount of hero worship is astounding to me. If you follow his past work, it is exactly following a previous pattern (projects completely out of scope, going over time and budget, mismanagement, etc. No bailout in sight, currently). As George Lucas would say, it's like poetry, it rhymes.

Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Nov 5, 2015

# ¿ Nov 5, 2015 23:42

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > The Goodmine > Star Citizen: Big MoMA's House

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