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PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Helsing posted:

This is the kind of statement that is very hard to read charitably. The best I can say is that I feel like you probably haven't ever lived in poverty and haven't had any close friends or family members who struggled financially for an extended period of time. Though quite frankly even without those experiences you should be able to recognize the causal links based on very basic knowledge of how our society works and a bit of common sense. Honestly, how clearly do you need it spelled out for you that poverty is a causal factor in social isolation? I would ask what mental leaps you're conducting to reach this conclusion but I don't actually care.

Anyway, if common sense or empathy aren't enough then I guess I would just say you should take some time on google to familiarize yourself with the empirical literature showing the well established link between lack of financial resources and social isolation in Canada specifically. Because contrary to what you suggest here, self reported feelings of isolation and loneliness are not evenly distributed across social classes in Canada, and are instead correlated with other factors like, surprise surprise, poverty.

Man, I’m working in an industry where we spend massively for qualifications and then get paid like poo poo, and on a weather-dependent basis at that. A $1500 paycheque is an amazing thing, and it requires uncommon luck and a shitton of long days. Most of my coworkers who don’t have other jobs are struggling, but somehow we all manage to have a social life, and hang out, and vent, and carry on. Poverty absolutely affects and exacerbates other issues, hence the correlation you describe, but it’s not causing it.

poo poo, even drug-addicted rough sleepers have friends and a social life. There are non-economic factors in our society that are causing isolation, and it’s important that we work to fix those at the same time we fix the economic issues or we won’t solve the problem.

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Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
Deaths of despair going up up up forever. :gbsmith: My highschool and college friends are all back in Kitchener and that seems like the last time in my life I was able to make lasting bonds with people. They are still great when I go camping or skiing with them 3-4x a year but poo poo.
Have had a lot of "buddies" since but it seems like once you hit your late 20s everyone has guards up and aren't really looking to add another fixture to their life. Sure, I've got lots of people to go skiing or biking with but no one will move to break that barrier from "ski bud" to friend, even though we'll all probably acknowledge that we're somewhat lonely (in private).

I love my wife for a lot of reasons but the most good she's probably done for me is to be incredibly social. I'd honestly have like zero friends that I see regularly if it weren't for her. She is absolutely not allowed to die before me. She'll be much better off without me than the other way around.

Helsing
Aug 23, 2003

DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU :love::love::love: JOE BIDEN

PT6A posted:

Man, I’m working in an industry where we spend massively for qualifications and then get paid like poo poo, and on a weather-dependent basis at that. A $1500 paycheque is an amazing thing, and it requires uncommon luck and a shitton of long days. Most of my coworkers who don’t have other jobs are struggling, but somehow we all manage to have a social life, and hang out, and vent, and carry on. Poverty absolutely affects and exacerbates other issues, hence the correlation you describe, but it’s not causing it.

1) You take at least one international vacation every year but are here acting like your personal anecdotes are giving you a deep insight into poverty. I have no further polite comments on this but you can probably imagine what I'm thinking.

2) Why do you keep insisting that poverty exacerbates social isolation but doesn't cause it? What's the significance of that difference you're insisting on?

quote:

poo poo, even drug-addicted rough sleepers have friends and a social life. There are non-economic factors in our society that are causing isolation, and it’s important that we work to fix those at the same time we fix the economic issues or we won’t solve the problem.

I hope you one day reach a point of self reflection where you realize that you keep insisting on this because you actually don't want to take any action to solve things. You're going to keep insisting its all just hopelessly complex and gee there's so many factors here and just so much going on and we don't really know what works and aw shucks we don't wanna change things too quickly and disrupt the stuff that does work well and furthermore... :words:

This is more or less the personal equivalent of how the NDP and Liberals are always promising to launch a study or establish a commission or otherwise look into problems. It's literally killing us as a society. You have all the necessary tools to recognize your role in this process and if you keep refusing to do so or acting like it's super complicated and hard to understand how poverty literally kills people then I can't help but see that as willful ignorance.

Yeah there are definitely going to be complications to solving poverty. You know what the necessary first step would be? People actually acknowledging its a serious problem and that it needs to be a priority that we solve it. People like you who acknowledge juuuust enough of the problem to look credible when you then dismiss any solution to it are honestly a more serious and pernicious problem than the openly conservative shitheads who will just blatantly say gently caress you, got mine.

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

we have sealed ourselves away behind our money, growing inward, generating a seamless universe of self.

Guigui
Jan 19, 2010
Winner of January '10 Lux Aeterna "Best 2010 Poster" Award
There is some really good research done down in the states that linked poverty and poor mental health outcomes in both native and newly immigrated families. I am phone posting right now so I don't have access to my database -but the gist of what Helsing states is bang on. If you are poor, you are much less likely to have free time to spend in other social ways that are protective factors (such as religious, or community groups). You are much more likely to be overworked (which taxes your mental health)... more likely to have very little control at your place of employment (increasing stress levels), less time to spend with your family and friends, less time to exercise... you are more likely to have precarious employment (making it hard to plan for the future), and lastly, less time and knowledge of where to go for help. (Things that, in the past, a good union could help with.)


What was also interesting, was looking at mental health outcomes of recently immigrated latino families within the first 2 years, and then 6 years after their arrival... Strong protectice factors for mental health were found. Factors such as... how these families have large family ties, how they have community links, and support that they bring from their native country before they immigrate - so much so, that their mental health outcomes were better than that of a comparative family with an even higher income....

... But then, about 6 years later, their mental health outcomes plummet. Factors inherent in our economic system start to grind them down, wearing down the protectice factors like sugar does to tooth enamel.

There are always going to be exceptions to every rule, of course....but any serious talk about mental health should not forget to include poverty as a giant elephant in the room that people don't want to talk about...

Guigui fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Mar 21, 2019

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011

PT6A posted:

I think social isolation is a huge problem, but I disagree with the idea that poverty is a causal factor. It's happening to people across the socioeconomic spectrum, and while poverty exacerbates the negative effects without question, we need only look at other societies where poverty exists in far greater magnitudes but the social isolation does not, to realize that the problem with social isolation goes beyond simple economic insecurity.

I mean, poverty is absolutely a cause, but you're also right that this is happening to people that aren't poor as well. Because the answer is inequality.

Kate E. Pickett and Richard G. Wilkinson, "Inequality: an underacknowledged source of mental illness and distress," The British Journal of Psychiatry 197, no. 6 (2010), 426-428 posted:

The burden of mental health problems in the UK today is very high. For example, estimates suggest that one million British children – one in ten between the ages of 5 and 16 – are mentally ill and that in any secondary school with 1000 students, 50 will have severe depression, 100 will be distressed, between 10 and 20 will have obsessive–compulsive disorder and between 5 and 10 girls will have an eating disorder.9 Among UK adults, in a national survey conducted in 2000, 23% of adults had a mental illness in the previous 12 months, and 4% of adults had had more than one disorder in the previous year.10 In the USA, one in four adults have been mentally ill in the past year and almost a quarter of these episodes were severe; over their lifetime more than half of US adults will experience mental illness.

But are such levels of mental illness an inevitable consequence of modern life in high-income societies? Not at all. Rates of mental illness vary substantially between rich societies. Comparable data on the prevalence of mental illness – free from cultural differences in reporting, diagnosis, categorisation and treatment have only recently become available. In 1998, the World Health Organization (WHO) established the World Mental Health Survey Consortium to estimate the prevalence of mental illness in different countries, the severity of illness and patterns of treatment. Although their methods do not entirely overcome worries about cultural differences in interpreting and responding to such questions, at least the same diagnostic interviews are used in each country.

We used these data as part of our investigation into the impact of income inequality on health and social problems; we examined the prevalence of mental illness in the WHO surveys from Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Spain and the USA,11,12 and from three national surveys using similar methodology from Australia,13 Canada14 and the UK.10

Figure 1 shows the association in rich countries between income inequality and the proportion of adults who have been mentally ill in the 12 months prior to being interviewed. This is a strong relationship (r = 0.73, P50.01), and clearly a much higher percentage of the population have a mental illness in more unequal countries; only Italy is somewhat of an outlier, with lower levels of mental illness than we might expect on the basis of its level of income inequality. Inequality is associated with threefold differences in prevalence: in Germany, Italy, Japan and Spain, fewer than 1 in 10 people have been mentally ill within the past year; in Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the UK it is more than 1 in 5 people, and in the USA more than 1 in 4.

Among the nine countries with data from WHO surveys, we can also examine subtypes of mental illness, specifically, anxiety disorders, mood disorders, impulse–control disorders and addictions, as well as a measure of severe mental illness. Anxiety disorders, impulse–control disorders and severe illness are all strongly correlated with inequality, mood disorders less so. Anxiety disorders represent the largest subgroup in all these countries, and the percentage of all mental illnesses that are anxiety disorders is itself significantly higher in more unequal countries.

As a separate test of the hypothesis that greater income inequality leads to an increase in the prevalence of mental illness, we repeated our analysis within the 50 states of the USA. State-specific estimates of mental illness are collected by the United States Behavioural Risk Factor Surveillance Study.15 We found that state-level income inequality is significantly associated with mental illness in adult women and with the percentage of children in each state with ‘moderate or severe difficulties in the area of emotions, concentration, behaviour, or getting along with others’.16 However, we found no association for adult men. This may be related to gender differences in willingness to report mental illness in the USA, as these data are self-reported mental illness rather than being derived from diagnostic interviews. Among other US-based studies none have used diagnostic interviewers, however studies have shown that state-level17 and county-level18 income inequality are associated with a significant increased risk of reporting depressive symptoms, and state-level inequality with self-reported mental health.19 Only one study found no effect for depressive symptoms.20

Why do more people tend to have mental health problems in more unequal places? Psychologist Oliver James uses an analogy with infectious disease to explain the link. What James terms the ‘affluenza’ virus is a ‘set of values which increase our vulnerability to emotional distress’, and he argues that these values are more common in affluent societies.21 They entail placing a high value on acquiring money and possessions, looking good in the eyes of others and wanting to be famous. He goes on to argue that these values increase the risk of depression, anxiety, substance misuse and personality disorder. Philosopher Alain de Botton claims that our anxiety about our social status is ‘a worry so pernicious as to be capable of ruining extended stretches of our lives’.22 When we fail to maintain our position in the social hierarchy we are ‘condemned to consider the successful with bitterness and ourselves with shame’. Economist Robert Frank calls the same phenomenon ‘luxury fever’.23 As inequality increases and the super rich at the top spend more and more on luxury goods, the desire for such things cascades down the income scale and the rest of us struggle to compete and keep up. Advertisers play on this, making us dissatisfied with what we have, and encouraging invidious social comparisons – more unequal societies spend more in advertising.6 Economist Richard Layard describes us as having an ‘addiction to income’ – the more we have, the more we feel we need and the more time we spend on striving for material wealth and possessions, at the expense of our family life, relationships and quality of life.24

Although not all these authors make the link specifically with income inequality, it is not surprising that the tendencies they describe are stronger in more unequal societies. Our impression is that greater inequality increases status competition and status insecurity. Internationally and among the 50 states of the USA, income inequality is strongly related to low levels of trust, to weaker community life and to increased violence. Mental health is profoundly influenced by the quality and sufficiency of social relationships and all these measures suggest that both are harmed by inequality.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
Fine, have it your way. I’m not going to continue wasting my limited and precious time on Earth continuing to engage with this den of negativity.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
Forget it. please continue to think there's no connection between financial anxiety and depression despite literally everyone else in here pointing out that there is. Depression is just caused by all this complex stuff we can't like understand man, and it's problems.

Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Mar 21, 2019

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

PT6A posted:

Fine, have it your way. I’m not going to continue wasting my limited and precious time on Earth continuing to engage with this den of negativity.

No one likes getting dogpiled when they're very wrong on something and it's a natural emotional response to get defensive or move the goalposts or imagine its just those other people who aren't understanding your valuable point in order to preserve some sense of your take being not totally worthless and untrue. But maybe try skipping through that phase and go straight to the learning and growing part that I'm happy to see you often do eventually get to once someone finds the magical way of explaining something to you that doesn't trigger your centrist defense mode. Maybe next time you're in spain you'll sit down with a beer with someone who struggled with severe depression, suicidal thoughts, and other mental health issues primarily stemming from their poverty and material insecurities from living in the capitalist hell-society that's been so good to you.

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination

PT6A posted:

Fine, have it your way. I’m not going to continue wasting my limited and precious time on Earth continuing to engage with this den of negativity.

People aren't 'being negative' here, they're trying to explain to you that poverty is a cause for a host of mental health issues, not just cohesion of families and general loneliness.

If we correctly identify the causes of some mental health issues, and fix them, then we can effectively cure or prevent many mental health issues.

If poverty causes mental health problems, than solving poverty solves mental health problems. Giving us an actionable goal (solving poverty through legislation, revolution, protest, whatever) to help reduce mental health problems.

BGrifter
Mar 16, 2007

Winner of Something Awful PS5 thread's Posting Excellence Award June 2022

Congratulations!
The thread has been constantly derailed for years while adults attempt to explain simple things to him. If he wants to take his football and go home let him.

ChairMaster was right.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
Actually gently caress it, I'm not going to forget it. PT6A, please tell me how my finances are not leaving me a wreck. I worked 13 hours minimum wage last week. I haven't been out with my friends since the end of loving November. I had to ask my mom to help me pay rent last month and it looks like I'm on track to need to ask her again this month. I got passed over for training that might give me some more marketable skills because my boss thinks I don't have any drive. I got hit by a loving car last week and I thank my luck that nothing is broken because I don't get paid sick leave.

The reason I can speak to isolation depression and anxiety is because I'm living it right goddamn now, you horse-blindered socially clueless idiot. So why don't you gently caress off outbid the thread for a while and tell some drug addict that they just need to work in it a bit to get better and see how that goes rather than getting all huffy when someone points out how loving rich it is coming from you to say money has no bearing on mental wellbeing.

Rime
Nov 2, 2011

by Games Forum
Hey, Hey PT6A,

You've been posting the same insufferably moronic poo poo for over half a loving decade. People have been trying to educate you for half a loving decade, you appear to turn over a new leaf for a bit, and then you go back to posting the same insufferably moronic poo poo.

Maybe have a look in the mirror and do some deep soul searching, maybe actually try to educate yourself as to why volumes of posters have been calling you a loving retard and buying you spite avs for half a loving decade. Maybe, just maybe, it's because the problem is you.

You insufferably moronic little poo poo. You cretin.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

DariusLikewise
Oct 4, 2008

You wore that on Halloween?
I'd like to point out that the Liberals in the 3 years have cutback massively on language classes for refugees and immigrants and that companies that bring in workers via the TFW program actively discourage workers from learning english as a means to keep them from gaining full citizenship or moving on from their menial jobs

cowofwar
Jul 30, 2002

by Athanatos

Lien posted:

This is absolutely true. I have a friend who is very mentally ill, for a few reasons. He's autistic, and had a really rough time growing up, so he has a lot of issues relating to people and trusting them. It's deeply compounded by the fact that he lives in poverty because he's too ill to work. He got trapped in a shite living situation too, and has had bedbugs for basically the past 6 years or so. He has been living like this because he didn't want to tell people, because he was afraid of losing friends. Literally the only reason this changed was he had a breakdown and told me about it-- I had no idea things were that bad until recently. And since then, trying to get help for him has been a loving *terrible* process. Like, getting him mental health care took a long-rear end time, and then trying to get him the appropriate government support has been horrifying, because there's so much paperwork, and such a long processing time. I honestly can't understand how anyone who is not neurotypical, abled, and skilled with paperwork is supposed to get through the system, and it's because government support in particular seems based on the idea that people are lying to get support. Because living on $1688 in Alberta gives you such a loving baller lifestyle, everyone dreams of living under the poverty line?? I am not sure that there is a path for him that ends up with him having a rich social circle and a life that is anything much beyond liveable at best.

Whereas, my mental health experience has been much much more pleasant, and it's because I have enough money and good health insurance plan that allows me to phone up a therapist and get in to see them immediately when I need to, and if I *had* to move apartments tomorrow, I could.

Yeah but i bet he has a fridge and a tv!

Viva Miriya
Jan 9, 2007

Now I understand why dude got namedropped in the note.

Moist von Lipwig
Oct 28, 2006

by FactsAreUseless
Tortured By Flan

PT6A posted:

Fine, have it your way. I’m not going to continue wasting my limited and precious time on Earth continuing to engage with this den of negativity.

Good.

Helsing
Aug 23, 2003

DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU :love::love::love: JOE BIDEN

PT6A posted:

Fine, have it your way. I’m not going to continue wasting my limited and precious time on Earth continuing to engage with this den of negativity.

See this is exactly what ChairMaster pointed out about you and he was 100% right. The second that being woke or progressive would actually require some personal reflection and taking of responsibility you get incredibly huffy and disengage.

This despite the fact you have a probation on your rap sheet for saying you hoped Jill Stein voters died horribly. You're not actually a person who values positivity or even a person who is above wishing death on your opponents. A quick perusal of your posting history would yield a dozen examples of you wishing death on people you don't like or even entire villages. Oh and your favourite poster was CI who you never failed to praise.

The only negativity that bothers you is negativity directed toward you specifically. And the saddest part of all this is I don't even think you're intentionally lying, I think you probably are just so clueless about your own behaviour you can't even recognize that glaring discrepancies in how you act vs. how you expect to be treated.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
Yeah I’m a oval office and probably responsible for the collapse of western civilization, gently caress me right?

Tighclops
Jan 23, 2008

Unable to deal with it


Grimey Drawer
You're a loving baby, if babies were belligerent little shits

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

vincentpricesboner
Sep 3, 2006

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Arcsquad12 posted:

Actually gently caress it, I'm not going to forget it. PT6A, please tell me how my finances are not leaving me a wreck. I worked 13 hours minimum wage last week. I haven't been out with my friends since the end of loving November. I had to ask my mom to help me pay rent last month and it looks like I'm on track to need to ask her again this month. I got passed over for training that might give me some more marketable skills because my boss thinks I don't have any drive. I got hit by a loving car last week and I thank my luck that nothing is broken because I don't get paid sick leave.


Minimum wage in this country is a loving joke. I love the Ford already is attacking it again. As someone that worked minimum age for years, its a loving travesty to get paid like that. Hope you find a job with benefits soon.

Azerban
Oct 28, 2003



zapplez posted:

Minimum wage in this country is a loving joke.

The only thing more insulting than minimum wage is student minimum wage. It's been 15+ years and I'm still salty.

Argas
Jan 13, 2008
SRW Fanatic




BGrifter posted:

ChairMaster was right.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

cougar cub
Jun 28, 2004

cowofwar posted:

Yeah but i bet he has a fridge and a tv!

On a recent trip to the US most of the homeless people I saw had a smart phones.

Edit - most is wrong, “a few” would have been better to use.

cougar cub fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Mar 21, 2019

Lien
Oct 17, 2006
<img src="https://forumimages.somethingawful.com/images/newbie.gif" border=0>

cowofwar posted:

Yeah but i bet he has a fridge and a tv!

His tv was salvaged from the trash, I think! But yeah, he definitely has electronics so is clearly not poor. /s

He's actually in an interestingly difficult place, because there would be more resources available if he were literally homeless. I've got him on the wait list for social housing, but because he technically has a place to live, he's not very high on the priority list, which is approximately two years. And on the social isolation note, I am trying to facilitate him moving into another place right now, but because of the bedbug issue, he has to discard all of his belongings, including his electronics. So, the computer is basically his main form of social interaction and we have to figure out some way of replacing that, which is something that I have no idea how to do. All of the charities I've found don't provide that kind of assistance, the government certainly doesn't, and after ten years of living on like, $900 a month, he has no money to replace this stuff. So basically, our social supports are bloody awful and inadequate, and I've written so many letters to government officials that they probably hate the sight of my name, and all they say is that "there's more to be done" but won't loving do it.

I'm definitely venting, but ChairMaster's situation hits very very close to home for me, because I am deeply afraid and angry that my friend might have taken that path.

The Butcher
Apr 20, 2005

Well, at least we tried.
Nap Ghost

Math You posted:

I love my wife for a lot of reasons but the most good she's probably done for me is to be incredibly social. I'd honestly have like zero friends that I see regularly if it weren't for her. She is absolutely not allowed to die before me. She'll be much better off without me than the other way around.

Man this is exactly my situation as well.

All my closest friends came from school when I was very young. They've all moved away now. When they visit or I visit them, it's great, the years don't seem to matter. But that's like once a year or so.

I don't think I've made a close friend since I was 16 or so. Lots of buddies, people to play sports with, hike and bike, people that I trust and like, but there's always a barrier. I'd never completely open up to them, or burden them with my inner problems, and vice versa. You just shoot the poo poo, talk shop, sort logistics, get drunk, whatever.

I'm not a particularly social person to begin with, and sometimes think I'd be happiest living in a tiny cabin in the mountains, but when I go a few days with limited social contact, I still start feeling lonely. I think except in very rare cases, it's more or less the same for all of us. Just wired that way. We need some degree of connection or we start getting sick, in one way or another. The internet doesn't really do it.

My wife is the one who usually organizes the dinners with friends and other social outings. Funny enough it's usually coordinated with other people's wives/partners. The dudes don't seem to arrange much on their own other than the outdoor activities stuff. If I didn't have her I'd probably do very little social stuff at all, and get weirder and weirder, eventually culminating in probably living in the forest and making occasional forays into the city to shoplift food.

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?

PT6A posted:

Yeah I’m a oval office and probably responsible for the collapse of western civilization, gently caress me right?

gently caress. Off. Go away.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Postess with the Mostest
Apr 4, 2007

Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

The Butcher posted:

I'm not a particularly social person to begin with, and sometimes think I'd be happiest living in a tiny cabin in the mountains, but when I go a few days with limited social contact, I still start feeling lonely. I think except in very rare cases, it's more or less the same for all of us. Just wired that way. We need some degree of connection or we start getting sick, in one way or another. The internet doesn't really do it.

My wife is the one who usually organizes the dinners with friends and other social outings. Funny enough it's usually coordinated with other people's wives/partners. The dudes don't seem to arrange much on their own other than the outdoor activities stuff. If I didn't have her I'd probably do very little social stuff at all, and get weirder and weirder, eventually culminating in probably living in the forest and making occasional forays into the city to shoplift food.

Yeah, when I meet men who are social organizers I don't trust it at all. Stop trying to network with me and have your wife arrange this via my wife like normal people do.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

CanPol Megathread: Chairmaster was right.

A Typical Goon
Feb 25, 2011
I'm probably in a similar life situation as PT6A. From what he posted I have a similar income, no kids etc. To compare a lifestyle of someone with no kids making over a median wage in Canada to someone struggling to live paycheck to paycheck is a joke

The difference between ~1500 dollar pay checks and ~600 pay checks is stressing about whether you want to go out for dinner a couple times a month, or chowing to pay down some debt instead. The stress for the ~600 dollar pay checks is choosing what food you want to buy in bulk, rice or bread and peanut butter or whatever, because you're not going to be eating anything else for the next 4 days because you have literally no money

As someone who's lived both lives, it's completely incomparable

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Party Plane Jones
Jul 1, 2007

by Reene
Fun Shoe
somebody can make a new canpol thread cause this one as gone off like a bad batch of poutine

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