CanPol Megathread: Big Changus

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Kafka Esq.: Jan 1, 2005; "If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Jordan7hm posted:

Good new thread.

Do you have links to articles from security / privacy people who say that the suggested c51 changes don't go far enough?

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/2015/06/why-the-liberal-party-defence-of-its-support-for-bill-c-51-falls-flat/

# ? Oct 27, 2015 06:19

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# ? Apr 18, 2024 19:56

Melian Dialogue: Jan 9, 2015; NOT A RACIST

Melian Dialogue fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Feb 2, 2016

# ? Oct 27, 2015 06:19

JawKnee: Mar 24, 2007; You'll take the ride to leave this town along that yellow line

SA: fair and balanced threadposting

# ? Oct 27, 2015 06:20

Lars Blitzer: Aug 17, 2004; He drinks a Whiskey drink, he drinks a Vodka drink
He drinks a Lager drink, he drinks a Cider drink...

Dick Tracy's number one fan.

JawKnee posted:

SA: fair and balanced threadposting

Is it time for a new thread title already? My, how time flies.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 06:21

Kafka Esq.: Jan 1, 2005; "If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Melian Dialogue posted:

Is there a reason the OP this time around is much more subjective? The last OPs have always given just a blanket statement of issues at play, but this one goes into some pretty opinionated stuff (like repealing C-51 for example). I always liked the other OPs because they very journalistically outlined the major topics and issues without being on one side or another of the issue.

I wrote quite a few of those. I don't think it's out of line to remind people that Trudeau is a lily-livered pretty boy who refused to have a position for a long time.

Also, shut up, I tried very hard to not be critical up there, you'll hurt my feelings, you fascist.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 06:23

Melian Dialogue: Jan 9, 2015; NOT A RACIST

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Melian Dialogue fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Feb 2, 2016

# ? Oct 27, 2015 06:26

Kafka Esq.: Jan 1, 2005; "If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Okay, well nit pick away, you feckless thug.

edit: I'm not going to ram anything down your throat, C-51 is a massive increase in information sharing and, just on the principle of it, we need to be extraordinarily cautious. Between this and the "you're with us or with the child pornographers" bill, the Liberals seem to have no problems with increasing the spying that they pioneered in 2003. I also think that Trudeau's reforms are going to be the first thing he forgets to do, and he'll throw a bone or two to distract the media from this incredibly non-sexy issue whenever it comes up. Just watch him.

Kafka Esq. fucked around with this message at 07:50 on Oct 27, 2015

# ? Oct 27, 2015 06:28

mila kunis: Jun 10, 2011

Sedge and Bee posted:

Are we seriously in for 4 years of lamenting the socialist utopia of Mulcairistan that could have been, alternating with bitter cynicism?

Didn't the NDP run to the right of the liberals this election

# ? Oct 27, 2015 06:31

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

Sedge and Bee posted:

Are we seriously in for 4 years of lamenting the socialist utopia of Mulcairistan that could have been, alternating with bitter cynicism?

For variety I will periodically make tl;dr posts about how Mulcair is not left wing enough.

tekz posted:

Didn't the NDP run to the right of the liberals this election

Rhetorically they kind of did but in terms of policy not really, the NDP platform included two ambitious new government programs - pharmacare and day care - and it redirected more federal cash toward transit whereas the Liberal transit plan mostly revolves around loaning municipalities money through specially created banks.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 06:39

Heavy neutrino: Sep 16, 2007; You made a fine post for yourself. ...For a casualry, I suppose.

tekz posted:

Didn't the NDP run to the right of the liberals this election

Not really, but I figure a lot of people would think so given that the NDP campaign's tone and theme was conservative -- stability, balanced approach, gradual progress and the like. It was a horrible misread of an electorate that was obviously (in hindsight) receptive to change and vision.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 06:44

The Goon: Sep 11, 2001

I love this thread.

Anyway I'm very curious to see how Justin is going to knock down the 2 year wait time for immigrating spouses. As I understand it, it's mostly due to bureaucratic inefficiency more so than any actual policy designed to keep people out.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 07:03

MikeSevigny: Aug 6, 2002; Habs 2006: Cristobal Persuasion

OSI bean dip posted:

A refresher on what is going on in British Columbia as we speak:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/email-scandal-1.3284856

This is in light of the fact that the BC Liberals in 2013, went on a tirade about former NDP leader, Adrian Dix and his doctoring of an internal memo when he was working in the previous NDP government. Of course, news articles about the attack exist but campaign videos have been removed.

I don't know why the BC Liberals are in such a hurry to cover this stuff up; between the medical researcher they fired and that poor kid in the motel last month, the government's only real accomplishments since being re-elected have been driving people to suicide, so why not throw a few murders in there for variety? Would it really hurt Christy's re-election chances? It's not like those women are building LNG plants up there.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 07:16

Melian Dialogue: Jan 9, 2015; NOT A RACIST

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Melian Dialogue fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Feb 2, 2016

# ? Oct 27, 2015 07:20

Dreylad: Jun 19, 2001

I don't want an OP to be unbiased, a quality I'm very suspicious of, I just want it to be fair.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 07:49

Melian Dialogue: Jan 9, 2015; NOT A RACIST

Melian Dialogue fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Feb 2, 2016

# ? Oct 27, 2015 07:54

Kafka Esq.: Jan 1, 2005; "If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Melian Dialogue posted:

Sure, but this doesn't negate my point about being fecklessly unbiased in the OP. Declaring the necessity to repeal a bill is a pretty strong indictment of it, don't you think?

It'd be better if you outlined some of the common criticisms and reasons why people are advocating to repeal the bill versus the Trudeau/Liberal position of reform. This would serve as a better tool for people new to the debate rather than painting it one way or the other.

The debate about reform vs repeal to me centers around what constitutes necessary checks and balances towards new powers. The CSIS Act is already an incredibly robust act given our international partners (it being the first ever piece of legislation that actually attempts to legally mandate an intelligence organization). So, any new introduction of powers into the act ought to be implemented with corresponding oversight. Though, I really disagree that SIRC is somehow a neutered organization considering it has the mandate and power to demand every single reporting or product ever done by CSIS. The problems where it falls apart is, as mentioned before, "following the thread" between inter-agency operations.

Also, the debate around having a Parliamentary Committee has just been taken for granted as well, despite some of the lovely controversies we've seen with the UK's attempt at the same approach in politicizing intelligence mandates (for example, see http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...d-10064105.html). I think beefing up SIRC is a better option.

You're gonna have to hulk that bad boy up, then. I don't want to hear about civil liberties being toasted by Trudeau's all-party Secret Avengers 3 years after the fact.

quote:

The small group watching over Canada�s spy agency says it was purposely devised to be a limited, after-the-fact �review� body � not an all-seeing �oversight� committee that would vet spy operations.

During three days of lively debate in the Commons over the controversial anti-terror Bill C-51, Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney, Justice Minister Peter MacKay and other Conservative MPs have repeatedly characterized the Security Intelligence Review Committee (SIRC) as providing oversight of the spy agency, known as the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS). Prime Minister Stephen Harper has done the same.

Yet SIRC has no such mandate, its spokeswoman said Monday. �We review CSIS. We look at past activities,� to ensure they are lawful, appropriate and effective, SIRC�s Lindsay Jackson said.

�Recently the terms �oversight� and �review� have become almost interchangeable but they do actually mean separate things.

�Direct oversight implies a certain amount of involvement in the active political decision-making or the operational decision-making, and we are not involved in the operational decision-making,� at CSIS.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 07:55

Melian Dialogue: Jan 9, 2015; NOT A RACIST

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Melian Dialogue fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Feb 2, 2016

# ? Oct 27, 2015 07:59

Kafka Esq.: Jan 1, 2005; "If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

edit: also, can you stop being concerned about the OP? Nobody reads it after the first page, you dummy

Frankly, Swagger, I just don't think you get what a civil liberty is and how much of a failure this bill is at respecting them.

Let's go through the platform on C-51 as per Trudeau Metre:

Guarantee that all Canadian Security Intelligence Service warrants respect the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. pablum
Establish an all-party national security oversight committee. the Secret Avengers
Ensure that Canadians are not limited from lawful protests and advocacy. who defines lawful?
Require that government review all appeals by Canadians on the no-fly list. they are not required to actually tell you that anything has happened
Define �terrorist propaganda� more clearly. thank god there will be a definition
Limit Communications Security Establishment�s powers by requiring a warrant to engage in the surveillance of Canadians. rubber stamp
Require a statutory review of the full Anti-Terrorism Act after 3 years. sunset clauses are good, just hope they allow a free vote on this WHOOPS!
Create the Office of the Community Outreach and Counter-radicalization Coordinator. what the gently caress does this even mean?

One of the only redeeming qualities is the promise not to do COINTELPRO on people they don't like. Thank god, they promised.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 08:04

Heavy neutrino: Sep 16, 2007; You made a fine post for yourself. ...For a casualry, I suppose.

Does SIRC even have any teeth at all? I can't find anything regarding any rear end-kicking authority it might have against CSIS, which in the end is the only thing that matters. Regardless, it's horribly underfunded and practically unable to keep up with complaints, let alone launch any pro-active reviews.

Who gives a poo poo about an agency that has nothing more impressive than the power to wag its finger, if it can even somehow scrounge up enough money to find something to wag at?

Heavy neutrino fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Oct 27, 2015

# ? Oct 27, 2015 08:59

Melian Dialogue: Jan 9, 2015; NOT A RACIST

Melian Dialogue fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Feb 2, 2016

# ? Oct 27, 2015 09:10

Heavy neutrino: Sep 16, 2007; You made a fine post for yourself. ...For a casualry, I suppose.

I dunno this might be completely unreasonable but maybe there should be a team of lawyers whose goal is to put people who abuse civil liberties in jail. They could be part of a certain watchdog agency with broad investigative powers, and perhaps even receive performance-based bonuses to ensure that they're thirsty for the blood of tyrants.

I'm not particularly impressed that a minister who's part of a majority government can theoretically perhaps do something maybe if there's enough political pressure. I want CSIS officials to wonder whether their actions are going to land them in prison every single time they consider some operation against anti-pipeline protesters or somesuch.

By the way have you addressed SIRC's underfunding?

Heavy neutrino fucked around with this message at 09:38 on Oct 27, 2015

# ? Oct 27, 2015 09:35

mila kunis: Jun 10, 2011

Heavy neutrino posted:

Not really, but I figure a lot of people would think so given that the NDP campaign's tone and theme was conservative -- stability, balanced approach, gradual progress and the like. It was a horrible misread of an electorate that was obviously (in hindsight) receptive to change and vision.

Congrats to the NDP on losing my vote by being retards then. When I saw that poo poo in their platform about rewarding "job creators" I felt like they were an effective Liberal clone and there was no need to vote for them

# ? Oct 27, 2015 10:40

brucio: Nov 22, 2004

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/tom-mulcair-post-election-niqab-1.3289816

quote:

Tom Mulcair says niqab position was a defining moment of his political career

Standing up to Stephen Harper on the niqab issue was the 'right thing' to do, says Tom Mulcair

I don't get this. Mulcair was reluctant to say anything about the niqab when it came up, and he hid behind the courts decision when it was discussed during the French debate. Is he trying to say that he was principled here?

# ? Oct 27, 2015 12:47

brucio: Nov 22, 2004

Double post, but interesting thoughts from Peter Stoffer:

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/nova-scotia/peter-stoffer-ndp-name-change-1.3289821

quote:

Peter Stoffer, former Nova Scotia MP, suggests dropping N from NDP

Stoffer supports other party reforms including separating federal, provincial wings of the party

The Canadian Press

October 26, 2015

Peter Stoffer, former MP for Nova Scotia riding Sackville-Preston-Chezzetcook, suggests the NDP needs to make some changes. Among them: dropping the N. (Sean Kilpatrick/Canadian Press)

1 shares

126 comments

The New Democratic Party should drop the word "new," says former MP Peter Stoffer.

The 18-year veteran politician, who lost his East Coast riding last week, suggests the New Democrats should consider becoming the Democratic Party.

"It is a simple change, it's superficial ... but if you just call yourselves the Democrats ... people can digest that very easily," he said.

Stoffer, who was among those who pushed for structural party reform in 2001, also favours separating the federal and provincial wings of the NDP.

"If you join, for example, the Ontario NDP, you're an automatic member of the federal NDP," he said. "That has to change.

"We need to break that sort of string that ties us both together ... We're the only party that does that. I've been asking for many, many years now to change it and I think it's time we did that."

He also said the party should abandon the 1961 agreement that brought the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation and the Canadian Labour Congress together to form the NDP.

"The reality is, labour votes the way they want to vote and that's the way it should be," he said. "But no political party should be tied to any ... one group over others. We should be a true democratic party for every single Canadian.

"Labour and the NDP need to have that mature conversation and say 'let's be the best of friends, let's ... work together for social change in this country', but don't necessarily need to be formally aligned."

'We thought we had the numbers'

Stoffer is among dozens of defeated New Democrats going through the painful send-off process — clearing offices and saying goodbye to staff.

"I have poor people working for me who are the best in the country and unfortunately they're now unemployed because of what happened," Stoffer said. "I know there's not much we could have done, we ran probably the best campaign we ever did, we thought we had the numbers, it just didn't turn out to be right."

Stoffer will briefly return this week to empty his eccentric Ottawa office, which features a pool table and dozens of hats and buttons he has collected over the years.

This will all be sold off to raise money for charity, he added.

I think becoming the Democrat Party is a bad idea, but separate wings of the party itself could be positive.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 12:52

Jordan7hm: Feb 17, 2011; Lipstick Apathy

brucio posted:

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/tom-mulcair-post-election-niqab-1.3289816

I don't get this. Mulcair was reluctant to say anything about the niqab when it came up, and he hid behind the courts decision when it was discussed during the French debate. Is he trying to say that he was principled here?

I think he's saying he's an idiot who wants to ignore the fact that the Liberals took essentially the same position.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 12:55

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

He was, and it was, but it was still a stupid hill to die on and pointing out the complete insanity of how this non-issue issue took precedence over real threats to the survival of civil liberties in this country would have been an infinitely better tactic. Joining the argument in the way he did was ill advised.

E: there is a person wearing a niqab on this bus right now. Nobody is panicking.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 12:56

Jordan7hm: Feb 17, 2011; Lipstick Apathy

In provincial news, Alberta budget comes out today. They're saying deficits until 2020. It'll be interesting to see how this flies.

Its a good thing they've got a majority.

e: I liked Trudeau's bit where he both tried to downplay it, while also attacking Harper on women's rights / abortion as a response. It was pretty effective in that one debate.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 13:07

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

We need a title for the thread anyway, why not just make it weedwatch?

Canadian Politics Megathread: No, weed isn't legal yet :420:

# ? Oct 27, 2015 13:18

DynamicSloth: Jul 30, 2006; "Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth."

brucio posted:

Double post, but interesting thoughts from Peter Stoffer:

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/nova-scotia/peter-stoffer-ndp-name-change-1.3289821

I think becoming the Democrat Party is a bad idea, but separate wings of the party itself could be positive.

Stoffer was a great MP with an insane office, but every one of those ideas seems actively bad and nothing to do with why the NDP lost.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 13:32

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

DynamicSloth posted:

Stoffer was a great MP with an insane office, but every one of those ideas seems actively bad and nothing to do with why the NDP lost.

He heard someone say that their party got DP'd and took it entirely the wrong way.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 13:36

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

Why do we need national security when there's nothing worth protecting in this country

# ? Oct 27, 2015 14:29

Kafka Esq.: Jan 1, 2005; "If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Melian Dialogue posted:

Well, unfortunately, I may not "understand what a civil liberty is" but those on the other side of the fence don't really understand what a national security is.

Wow, you really got me there, swagger. The rhetorical spin you put on that one is just out of this world. :rolleyes:

C-51 solves a problem that doesn't exist, and is doing so in a way that is hastily thrown together by a power-hungry Conservative government. Trudeau's reforms will mean poo poo, as a whipped sunset vote 3 years from now will still be under a loving Liberal government. A judge issuing a warrant for bulk data collection also means poo poo because they have no idea what they'll find. And information sharing amongst agencies means some bulk data could be sent to the RCMP who then trips over their own dick and rapes you to death because they're incompetent.

It should be repealed and a framework not created by the Conservatives should be dreamed up with guys like Michael Geist at the helm.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 15:16

Risky Bisquick: Jan 18, 2008; PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.; Buglord

Cultural Imperial posted:

Why do we need national security when there's nothing worth protecting in this country

Weed

# ? Oct 27, 2015 15:17

Risky Bisquick: Jan 18, 2008; PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.; Buglord

Kafka Esq. posted:

I'm already thinking of closing this thread.

Don't be a fascist

Thread title: people who contribute to oppressive political movements should be criticized imo

# ? Oct 27, 2015 15:19

Whiskey Sours: Jan 25, 2014; Weather proof.

Cultural Imperial posted:

Why do we need national security when there's nothing worth protecting in this country

I am in this country and I am worth protecting. However, I am not worth attacking and neither is anything else in Canada.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 15:21

Kafka Esq.: Jan 1, 2005; "If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

jm20 posted:

Don't be a fascist

Thread title: people who contribute to oppressive political movements should be criticized imo

The joke that follows the colon is the thread itself.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 15:23

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

Kafka Esq. posted:

C-51 solves a problem that doesn't exist, and is doing so in a way that is hastily thrown together by a power-hungry Conservative government.

It should be repealed and a framework not created by the Conservatives should be dreamed up with guys like Michael Geist at the helm.

That's not opinion, that's objectively true fact.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 15:24

Tan Dumplord: Mar 9, 2005; by FactsAreUseless

Can't wait to vote for the DP party, at least until we get a true evangelical DVDA party on the ballot.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 15:37

Risky Bisquick: Jan 18, 2008; PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.; Buglord

Prior to outright repealing C-51, which should happen, there should be made a report that outlines the number of events prevented, and whether or not the information gathered under c-51 as being the root cause for that preventative action. Blackout the events all you want, I want to see concrete examples and numbers made public as to the efficacy of the blanket charter abuse to date.

# ? Oct 27, 2015 15:41

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# ? Apr 18, 2024 19:56

Angry Diplomat: Nov 7, 2009; Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging

I clicked on this thread thinking "I wonder how long it'll take Melian Dialogue to show up and shower everyone in crypto-fascist apologia" and, welp,

Cultural Imperial posted:

Why do we need national security when there's nothing worth protecting in this country

But how will we protect our precious Mounties if we don't catch all the :siren:

potential radicals :siren:

in Mr. Big operations before they have a chance to radicalize by themselves?? :ohdear:

e: legalize weed and make it so affordable that everyone is too baked to do terrorism

Angry Diplomat fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Oct 27, 2015

# ? Oct 27, 2015 15:41

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