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Revenant Threshold
Jan 1, 2008

THE PWNER posted:

I came up with my first actual good tactic that at least shows some semblance of basic understanding. 4-1-2-2-1 with 2 AMCs, a deep lying forward, wide midfielders cutting inside and fullbacks providing most of the width. Basically the DLF picks up long balls, holds up the ball, gets it out onto the full backs and a cross comes in with the AMCs and WM's in the box. The striker hardly scores and our goalscorers are all over the place, but its working super well. We have a pretty insane cross completion rate of 40% because we just have so many guys in the box that its impossible to mark all of them.
Just tried out a slightly changed version of this - I have the wingers staying outside, and a central DLP to pick out a slightly higher forward on the counter. You're right, the game seems entirely unable to deal with that many players all rushing in at once. I'm seeing the entire defensive line all marking one guy, even. I think it's the same thing that meant three forwards was the dominating tactic a few versions ago.

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THE PWNER
Sep 7, 2006

by merry exmarx
Is there an easy way to keep on top of how my domestic brothers are doing in europe? Right now I do it all by hand. Trying to up league reputation so I've been checking out their performance diligently.

Brendan Rodgers
Jun 11, 2014




You can subscribe to them for updates.

Bogan Krkic
Oct 31, 2010

Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

Revenant Threshold posted:

Just tried out a slightly changed version of this - I have the wingers staying outside, and a central DLP to pick out a slightly higher forward on the counter. You're right, the game seems entirely unable to deal with that many players all rushing in at once. I'm seeing the entire defensive line all marking one guy, even. I think it's the same thing that meant three forwards was the dominating tactic a few versions ago.

Conversely, how do I loving stop my defense from all deciding to mark one player, while there's two players on the wings putting in a cross unchallenged and everyone else strolling into the box unmarked for a tap in? Every single loving game.

THE PWNER
Sep 7, 2006

by merry exmarx
It took 2 seasons to get promoted to the Eredivisie with with Achilles '29, then two seasons to win it, and now we're on course for our 3rd title in 5 years. But dear god do we loving suck in Europe. We just got out of the CL group stages for the very first time and proceeded to lose 1-4 at home in a game we dominated. One season we started in the qualifying rounds, outplayed Arsenal in both legs but lost them both. It's just an endless cycle of playing better but still losing. Meanwhile in the league, we're undefeated and have conceded 8 goals in 28 games.

League reputation is really suffering too, we're not performing well enough to offset how utterly useless Dutch clubs are. Every year, without fail, the 2nd place teams fails to qualify for the CL then gets knocked out in the uefa cup group stages. The teams in the uefa cup lose the qualifiers/lose their group. And to top all of this off, my best players are constantly being sold by the board, who go over my head, for 25+mil which I then can't spend because no one good wants to play for us!

I get the feeling that my entire team have a 1 for their big games stat or something.

THE PWNER fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Dec 30, 2015

Shazback
Jan 26, 2013

sassassin posted:

It means he won't close down unless he just happens to be near the man with the ball. Its a defensive attribute.

Getting involved in play generally is - perversely - Aggression. There is grey area overlap between the two because the coders sing from their own inconsistent hymn sheets, but the official definition of Work Rate is that it's the Pressing attribute.

This is some real bullshit because of how counterintuitive it is.

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

by Azathoth

Shazback posted:

This is some real bullshit because of how counterintuitive it is.

It's doubly confusing because most of the researchers don't know what some of the important style attributes actually do either, so you can't look at real players ingame and get an accurate sense of how things work.

Leon Britton has something like 6 Aggression. Because he's small. But for digital Leon to play like actual Leon he should have high aggression to replicate how he buzzes about the pitch, offering himself for passes and making challenges. He doesn't hide, or wait in position for the play to find him. A high aggression player gets involved (and dives into tackles).

He's also got low Off The Ball as he's not effective in the final third, even though that attribute controls how a player finds space to receive the ball all over the pitch.

Bale and Ronald have 12 Acceleration.

Shroud
May 11, 2009

sassassin posted:

Getting involved in play generally is - perversely - Aggression. There is grey area overlap between the two because the coders sing from their own inconsistent hymn sheets, but the official definition of Work Rate is that it's the Pressing attribute.

Are you sure about this?

GuidetoFootballManager says:

quote:

How likely a player is to choose to get involved in a physical situation and how much he exerts physical force in such situations.

Physical situations include attempting to tackle an opposition player, marking an opposition player and competing with an opposition player to get to the ball.

The likelihood of violent or other unsporting behaviour is not directly affected by Aggression, but instead by the hidden attributes Dirtiness and Sportsmanship.

However, higher Aggression does make fouls more likely to be commited as a result of greater involvement in physical situations. Therefore, a player with higher Aggression would benefit from good Tackling, Anticipation, Concentration and Decisions so that he is less likely to commit fouls.

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

by Azathoth
Yes, I am sure. My information doesn't come from a third-party guesswork website.

THE PWNER
Sep 7, 2006

by merry exmarx
There must be some real disconnect between the developers and the coders for the stats to be so far off from their real world meaning. It's not even that they're too hard to implement realistically or anything, it's just that the names of the stats don't line up properly with what they actually do. Can't be too hard to move "gets involved" from aggression to work rate...

Bogan Krkic
Oct 31, 2010

Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

sassassin posted:

Yes, I am sure. My information doesn't come from a third-party guesswork website.

are you miles jacobsen

Brendan Rodgers
Jun 11, 2014




sassassin posted:

Yes, I am sure. My information doesn't come from a third-party guesswork website.

Yeah these sites are poo poo. Also that explanation of Aggression looks like it's mixing it up with Bravery as well as Work Rate and then still getting it wrong.

sassassin posted:

Bale and Ronald have 12 Acceleration.

If you watch Ronnie lately it's probably quite fair, he's still really loving fast but he's not nearly as quick off the mark as he used to be.

Brendan Rodgers fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Dec 31, 2015

Adrianics
Aug 15, 2006

Affirmative. Yes. Yo. Right on. My man.
I'm really poo poo at this game :(

I'm managing my beloved Coventry City and actually got promoted as champions in my first season, but the Championship is completely kicking my rear end. In the first season, I panicked and relied on downloaded formations then fell into a complete tailspin after Christmas, eventually losing in the Playoff final. I then determined to try and figure this out on my own, I think I've gotten the hand of creating a possession-heavy tactic but my first four games have been 0-1, 0-0, 1-2 and 0-0. Basically my players ping the ball around the whole game, make a few chances but smack it off the post or goalkeeper then are undone when the defence shits itself over a cross. Once I'm a goal down I'm completely out of ideas and it's gotten to the point that I've ceased to get any enjoyment out of the game. Even after my new Chairman gave me a £8 million transfer budget (after setting the minimum expectations to automatic promotion) which I used to kit out the squad, I still have one of the worst teams in the division and I'm now at a loss as to how I can win games.

What kind of team instructions would be good to boost the chances created? At the moment I'm only running retain possession and much more closing down.

Brendan Rodgers
Jun 11, 2014




Coventry is one of the hardest challenges in the game unless their situation has gotten sorted lately IRL? But I know as recently as 15 they were a preposterously hard start in terms of doing the poo poo team to CL winners thing.

You'll have to show the whole tactic really including TI screen so we can give you contradictory tips (there won't really be one answer). It sounds like you aren't getting enough people forward though, through mentality and Attack roles, and you don't have enough freedom in the right places to actually make a throughball or a cross and you're ending up with scrappy half chances. But it's hard to say.

Brendan Rodgers
Jun 11, 2014




You should probably mostly play a direct counter style anyway tbh. Possession is hard to get right at the best of times especially in 16 compared to 15.

You're Coventry in the Championship too, I bet it'll work better for you.

Brendan Rodgers fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Dec 31, 2015

Bogan Krkic
Oct 31, 2010

Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

Adrianics posted:

Basically my players ping the ball around the whole game, make a few chances but smack it off the post or goalkeeper then are undone when the defence shits itself over a cross. Once I'm a goal down I'm completely out of ideas and it's gotten to the point that I've ceased to get any enjoyment out of the game.

THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS

Every other year I've felt like I could tell where my tactics were going wrong and how to improve them and see the adjustments do things, this year it genuinely feels like the game just decides if you're going to win or not and what plays out on the screen has no bearing on it.

Cast_No_Shadow
Jun 8, 2010

The Republic of Luna Equestria is a huge, socially progressive nation, notable for its punitive income tax rates. Its compassionate, cynical population of 714m are ruled with an iron fist by the dictatorship government, which ensures that no-one outside the party gets too rich.

Sorting out a defense tends to be a bit easier in this version.

Things to remember. The formation you see on the screen is your defensive set up not how you attack.

Attack mentality (vs support) is a real tough one to get right. It also affects a bunch of stuff. Firstly attack players wont do much in the way of defending unless they happen to be in the right place at the right time. They will also take more risks and be more aggressive in trying to score, try the crazy Hollywood pass, take the chance of staying up field rather than tracking back and so on. It also controls how they act when you get the ball, a player on attack will look to get as far forward as he can as soon as you get the ball.

By contract a support player will take safer options that keep possession rather than a killer through ball, their running will often be later and they will pay more attention to their defensive duties.

You want a good combination of roles and probably far less attack roles than most people first think, especially for a possession based tactic. Attack players in advanced positions will pin the defense back leaving more room in midfield to keep the ball but less room to exploit when it comes to goalscoring opportunities, more support guys will run in later and have a higher chance of finding space in the confusion.

Brendan Rodgers
Jun 11, 2014




You can get away with more attack roles if you play fluid tactic and roles.

Bogan Krkic
Oct 31, 2010

Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

I think this year is the most difficult I've found it to set up a defense

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

by Azathoth
In a possession tactic you don't need any attack roles at all.

Or defend.

Brendan Rodgers
Jun 11, 2014




Not even your Fullbacks?

Cast_No_Shadow
Jun 8, 2010

The Republic of Luna Equestria is a huge, socially progressive nation, notable for its punitive income tax rates. Its compassionate, cynical population of 714m are ruled with an iron fist by the dictatorship government, which ensures that no-one outside the party gets too rich.

For a perfectly good defense 4 1 4 1 anchor man, wide midfielders all support and counter/defend will work. Obviously will struggle to score but thats where you drop in overlapping full backs,b2b midfielder or more interesting roles to break through.

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

by Azathoth

Brendan Rodgers posted:

Not even your Fullbacks?

Especially not fullbacks.

texasmed
May 27, 2004
I hate the feeling right before conceding a goal where I think to myself, "why are both of my center backs running out wide to cover their MR, oh it's because the game is gifting the opponent with a cheap goal."

Alternatively "why is my fullback standing like a statue, oh"

Ragingsheep
Nov 7, 2009
sassassin, does having +4 stars in all coaching categories make that much of a difference or am I just wasting my time trying to sort out the backroom staff?

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

by Azathoth

Ragingsheep posted:

sassassin, does having +4 stars in all coaching categories make that much of a difference or am I just wasting my time trying to sort out the backroom staff?

Not as much as having good facilities and giving the players adequate gametime, avoiding heavy workload in any area and only if you are focusing on developing youth instead of buying players that are already good. There's too many variables involved for the difference between 3 and 4 star to matter much imo.

I make my manager a good defensive coach, hire a couple of great fitness coaches with regional reputation on the cheap, and hire some other warm bodies with the right nationalities to increase my scouting knowledge in Europe.

Humbaba
Aug 4, 2006
It's been ages since I read it, but in one of the player development threads on thedugout someone made a case that tactical coaching is the best thing for young players as it helps develop mental stats faster, and between high tactical coaching and mentoring a player could be brought to their potential in a couple years less time. Is there any truth to that?

THE PWNER
Sep 7, 2006

by merry exmarx
gently caress off, FM



We just won the league 3rd year running and have been in the CL for 5 years straight.

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

by Azathoth

Humbaba posted:

It's been ages since I read it, but in one of the player development threads on thedugout someone made a case that tactical coaching is the best thing for young players as it helps develop mental stats faster, and between high tactical coaching and mentoring a player could be brought to their potential in a couple years less time. Is there any truth to that?

Depends what you want from the player.

'Potential' is just how many attribute points a player can gain. It's probably faster to use up those points if you go heavy on tactical because young players naturally gain physical and technical attributes faster (and the opposite for older players), but if you've made your future centreforward better at positioning he's not going to score more goals for you.

Doubling down on fitness work might give less of a net gain per month or something, but if you don't make the most of speed and strength gains young the player may never get them. An injury or two in their mid-twenties and you might be stuck with a well-rounded Pace <13 winger.

Masonity
Dec 31, 2007

What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?
I always like to train players in the role I expect them to one day fill. The only exception is strikers who I tend to train in poacher while I use the complete forward role. Mostly because I want them involved in play but when it comes to attributes poacher is your bog standard goalscorer. And with only one man up front I need those to be right whatever he's doing on the pitch.

Bogan Krkic
Oct 31, 2010

Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

texasmed posted:

I hate the feeling right before conceding a goal where I think to myself, "why are both of my center backs running out wide to cover their MR, oh it's because the game is gifting the opponent with a cheap goal."

Alternatively "why is my fullback standing like a statue, oh"

This this this this this



Also, I've finished my first season in the Prem finishing 9th with West Ham, and there's some hilarious results going on. Klopp couldn't get Liverpool out of the relegation zone, and got sacked after Jan with Mancini dragging them to 16th, 7 points clear of relegation. Rogers got Newcastle relegated in the end, and now Janmaat is on his way to Real Madrid on the cheap. Jamie Vardy scored 29 in 38 league games, taking Leicester to 8th, and immediately got dropped by England for the Euros. Best of all Tottenham led the league for almost the entire season before doing a Tottenham and losing the last few games to hand the title to Arsenal

kingturnip
Apr 18, 2008

Masonity posted:

I always like to train players in the role I expect them to one day fill. The only exception is strikers who I tend to train in poacher while I use the complete forward role. Mostly because I want them involved in play but when it comes to attributes poacher is your bog standard goalscorer. And with only one man up front I need those to be right whatever he's doing on the pitch.

I find training young strikers in the Poacher role means they improve the most important attributes - Finishing, Composure, Pace, Acceleration.
For a good team, if I can get those up to ~13, then I'll start looking at specialising the player further.

THE PWNER
Sep 7, 2006

by merry exmarx
I've got a winger who seems pretty mediocre at a glance of his stats, but in the match engine he's loving Messi. He skips over every challenge, beats opponents with skill & pace, and pretty much outplays everyone who dares come within 5 metres of him. It's great to watch but I have to wonder why it's happening. Routinely skips past the challenges of the opposing winger, full back, and then belts in a perfect cross for a tap in as if it was his preferred move (he has none actually).

Bogan Krkic
Oct 31, 2010

Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

It's his acc/pace combined with decent dribbling and other physicals. Speed seems to be way more important this year

THE PWNER
Sep 7, 2006

by merry exmarx
Meh, still can't be as bad as it used to be. I remember some versions where finishing, composure, pace and accel were basically the only relevant stats for a striker, and accel/pace for everyone else outside of centre backs.

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

by Azathoth
Pace doesn't matter, the difference between pace 1 and 20 is tiny. Acceleration, strength and composure are probably combining well for him.

Not having sky high flair is also a good thing.

kingturnip
Apr 18, 2008

sassassin posted:

Pace doesn't matter, the difference between pace 1 and 20 is tiny. Acceleration, strength and composure are probably combining well for him.

Erm, I've got a guy with 20 Pace and 7 Acceleration and when he gets going, he's the loving Roadrunner.

Bogan Krkic
Oct 31, 2010

Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

kingturnip posted:

Erm, I've got a guy with 20 Pace and 7 Acceleration and when he gets going, he's the loving Roadrunner.

Yeah, pace seems much more important this year, Carl Jenkinson racks up assists because with 17 pace no one can keep up with him, and then 16 crossing and defenders being completely unable to mark the far post sees a goal nearly every time he gets going

sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

by Azathoth
All else being equal, pace 1 is 75% as fast as pace 20.

As even Per Mertesacker has pace 11 or something, on its own it's not a huge difference maker.

Acceleration is king.

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sassassin
Apr 3, 2010

by Azathoth
Jenkinson gets assists because the match engine can't mark full backs.

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