Football Manager series: It's your tactics, mate

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Armchair Quarterback > Football Manager series: It's your tactics, mate

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Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

vyelkin posted:

Places Shots is just that good, especially on any striker with decent finishing and composure and the other stats necessary to get in shooting positions reliably.

Basically your players are all idiots and will pick the worst shot possible 90% of the time. Places Shots forces them to choose a shot that's reliable (even if it's not necessarily the best shot in every single circumstance) so their shots actually go on target instead of getting blasted over the bar.

I'd always thought that places shots was far more preferable to shoots with power, but in my latest save Enner Valencia came back from injury, couldn't score in like 6 games from an IF position, and then injuries dictated he got a game up front. Proceeds to hit 22 in 24 with shoots with power and shoots from distance as PPMs, just loving smacking them past the keeper from everywhere

# ¿ Feb 9, 2016 16:19

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 23:22

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

I wonder if combining the two (presumably that'd have to be through the editor) would result in a player always picking the best shot and then smashing it unstoppably into the corner

# ¿ Feb 9, 2016 18:07

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

Fully sick gaming drama itt

# ¿ Feb 13, 2016 08:50

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

sassassin posted:

Patch is out tonight.

gently caress yeah, it better fix crosses being the only viable way to score and everyone becoming moyes_utd.avi but actually productive

# ¿ Mar 4, 2016 11:50

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

I played out a season to test tactics and it seems a 4231 is viable again with the new patch and also playing a winger in central midfield is no longer a way to guarantee them getting at least an assist a game so I guess the new patch is better

I score a few coming down the wings and cutting inside for either a pass or a switch out to the overlapping fullback, which actually seems realistic now

# ¿ Mar 14, 2016 22:09

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

I'd have no problem with the press conferences if the outcome from your choices wasn't entirely incongruous with what they actually say, and also I guess if they weren't just you clicking 'yes / no / no comment' in one of 4 irrelevant tones of voice five times before every game

# ¿ Mar 14, 2016 22:23

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

fwiw I disagree with sassassin on the control/counter thing, but maybe we just have different interpretations on what those things should look like irl

# ¿ Mar 14, 2016 23:38

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

Complete Forward - Support worked pretty well in 16.2 to do what you're describing from a front man, not sure if it works as well post patch though

# ¿ Mar 16, 2016 03:12

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

I've found CF-A to be the best way to get goals out of my lone strikers, and CF-S if they aren't as good in front of goal but have good passing/dribbling. But then I actually like to have that one player charging forward constantly

# ¿ Mar 16, 2016 14:37

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

Adrianics posted:

Ended up playing a lot of the game over Easter. As hard as I try to enjoy it (and am doing pretty decently with a promoted Leicester side), it just drags me kicking and screaming out of the experience when it feels like every opposition goal is either:

1. Header from a set piece (which I know is probably my tactics but absolutely nothing I have tried works)

2. Byline cross converted at far post

It also feels like an awful lot of goals are scored by ludicrous glitches in the match engine that go completely unacknowledged by the commentary. So many goals resulting from missed routine headers, midfielders inexplicably threading a backpass through to an offside striker, tackles sailing across goal to an unmarked winger or terrible backpasses from defenders. Yes, yes, I know that these things happen IRL or it's just the match engine manifesting a too high defensive line or whatever the gently caress but the fact of the matter is that this is what we're presented with and it simply isn't fun or enjoyable to watch a match outcome be effected by the match engine losing its poo poo.

I agree, this is the least fun version I've ever played and it's all because of the terrible match engine

# ¿ Mar 31, 2016 00:28

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

The problem isn't that you can only score from crosses, its that it's insanely easy to make a tactic which sees your fullbacks unmarked and then a striker smash in the cross every second time, because defenders just don't attack the ball from crosses at the byline or from deep and let strikers run unmarked all the time

# ¿ Apr 3, 2016 11:22

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

FM17 better not have a poo poo match engine

# ¿ Apr 23, 2016 21:57

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

I've started enjoying this again and stopped noticing as many absurd scorelines, has there been another patch? Or did I just need to spend a few months not playing before getting lonely and crawling back

# ¿ May 2, 2016 10:34

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

I've been given a transfer budget of $90 million and after selling Payet and Berardi for a combined $120 million I have stacks of cash, but I'm not in the Champions League so no one better wants to join. How do I spend my money I've never had this kind of money to spend before

Also, I don't think its too bad to suggest that Leicester have the 7th best first team squad in the PL, they've won the title on determination and organisation, not on individual ability. Arsenal, City and Liverpool man for man have better players outside of maybe 3 or 4 Leicester players, but are shambling along due to a lack of leadership and stagnation at the clubs. I don't think Villa have the worst squad in the league either, its just that they don't anyone on or off the pitch that seems to care.

# ¿ May 3, 2016 15:01

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

Waroduce posted:

1. Whats some bullshit I need to watch out for? Crosses from RB/LBs i believe when I was reading the thread for instance

2. Should I start with a very good team a-la Arsenal/Man City/PSG/Barca or go from the bottom up? By bottom I mean a lovely team in Italy, or like League 1/Championship.

3. Is it generally more advisable to fit players into a tactic that I want to play, or figure out what my players do and keep a fluid tactic?

Crosses from full backs being overpowered is an issue exclusive to 16, so no need to worry if you're playing 15.

I find it most rewarding to play as a lower mid table club or a very good 2nd div club and build them up around my philosophies, and craft my own winning side than coming into one that already wins and being expected to deliver.

And its much better to make a good formation and cram players into that. Make adjustments if your team can't perform a role, and then look to sign players to fill gaps in your tactic rather than building a best XI that won't play well together.
I've always had the most success with a 4231 with a playmaker and two inside forwards behind a striker, and a ball winner and and a good passer in midfield, but there's a million ways to build a tactic depending on what if you prefer possession, counter attacks, tricky players, big men up front, etc

# ¿ Jun 22, 2016 21:23

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

I find a 4231 to be really really hard to make work properly in FM16 without really good players. If you're determined to use it, I'd give the players roles that use less creative freedoms, change the Trequartista to AM-S, CWB to WB, BPD to CD, and maybe turn the roaming playmaker into a more defensive midfielder. All the individual instructions are basically what I use, although without the 'get stuck in' because half my DMs have that as a PPM and just get sent off if I tell them to go in any harder than normal.

# ¿ Jul 4, 2016 02:17

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

I use either

code:

       CF-A
  IF-A AM-S IF-A
    DLP-D BWM-S
FB-S CD-D CD-D FB-S
        SK-A

code:

       CF-A
  IF-A      IF-A
    AM-A DLP-S
       BWM-D
WB-A CD-D CD-D WB-A
       SK-A

# ¿ Jul 4, 2016 05:42

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

A 4231 in the game works well if you don't worry about actual defending and just press really high up because your players are just better and faster than the competition but otherwise you either need more support on the wings or through the center when defending

FAT WORM OF ERROR posted:

Are you all using different tactics when you're away? I wanted to go with a deeper 4312 or 442 and counter but I can't seem to make either work.

I don't tend to use different tactics specifically for away games, but just for more difficult games or if I want to cede possession. Had a bit of luck with a 433 with a DM and 2 wingers, and also a 4132 where the 3 are all central playmakers.

# ¿ Jul 4, 2016 22:25

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

442 is the only formation that consistently scores at least a goal per game against my 4231 and it's brutally frustrating

# ¿ Jul 5, 2016 00:43

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

sassassin posted:

4-2-3-1 works okay in the game because the match engine is a mess of compromises and confusion, and the game isn't especially hard to brute force with good players, and you can easily happen upon a set of instructions that exploits something or other in the code (which is what all these downloadable tactics with a hundred instructions are trying to accomplish). And it's not that far from a strong, sensible formation like 4-4-1-1 or 4-5-1 at the end of the day; it's just a few players 10 or 20 yards too far up the pitch when defending.

If you're actually trying to understand what you're doing and why it's working (or not), using that formation is a bad starting point. It's not football as you see it irl. Even a high press involves tracking back.

Is there a match engine equivalent of Inside Forward - Attack but from the ML/R positions? That's the main reason I like a 4231, because I can't get players to behave like that if they start further back.

# ¿ Jul 5, 2016 11:43

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

Ragingsheep posted:

I like how my wingers and full backs literally can't cross from the byline. Right footed players playing on the right side will run to the byline, do a 90 degree turn to face the center circle, try to pass it with their right foot, right into the defender tracking him who manages to boot it clear.

I have no idea what's going on with your team because like 60% of my goals are from crosses from the byline

# ¿ Jul 5, 2016 12:54

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

sassassin posted:

It depends what you envisage IF-A as being, and how the rest of your team is shaped. Personally I've had Winger-Support and Winger-Attack provide great goalscoring returns as movement narrows in the final third regardless of instruction. With a lone striker in the ST or AM position, they can score a lot of goals approaching from wide areas.

Conventional thinking was that Wide Midfielder - Attack (with instructions to come inside with the ball) was the deeper equivalent of IF-A, but I found they narrowed too early in play to be useful.

Generally though, IF-A is a main striker role, staying high and drifting out into channels when your team doesn't have the ball. You can either create a defensive version of it that doesn't offer the same outlet, or use a better overall system to utilise it effectively.

Yeah cool, that's what I thought. I use them as wide strikers, and a CF-S to link play from midfield to the widemen. All 3 drop deep-ish, but stay high enough up the pitch to press really high and smash teams on the counter. Don't think it'd be any use dropping them deeper in that case.

# ¿ Jul 6, 2016 04:14

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

sassassin posted:

4 strikers is a lot.

That's 3, but it seems to work. I score heaps and concede heaps.

# ¿ Jul 6, 2016 08:23

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

sassassin posted:

High scoring games are bad. Conceding more than a goal a game is criminal mismanagement.

AMs are strikers. It's a 10 position.

lol high scoring games are great mate. AMs drop real deep and if that's 4 strikers then call me Bielsa

# ¿ Jul 6, 2016 10:04

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

He kept 12 clean sheets last season, even though he was out injured for about a month. No issues there.

# ¿ Jul 6, 2016 15:16

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

sassassin posted:

That's a very aggressive midfield.

You must be the most boring manager ffs

# ¿ Jul 7, 2016 13:09

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

sassassin posted:

How many real life teams play without any sort of holding midfielder?

How many real life teams score 90% of their goals from full backs whipping the ball in?

# ¿ Jul 8, 2016 05:44

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

Sweeper keeper just means that he'll actually come off his line at some point rather than steadfastly refusing to close down any angles for opposing strikers

# ¿ Jul 9, 2016 10:28

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

sassassin posted:

All my strikers have the yips.

I've strugged to find a striker that consistently fires, all mine go through ridiculous hot patches where they score like 15 in 10 and then don't score for 15 games. Stats don't seem to matter either, my current front man is actually a midfielder with 11 finishing and he's red hot, but he'll drop off soon enough I'm sure and then not regain form for the rest of the season like all my other options

# ¿ Jul 20, 2016 02:01

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

sassassin posted:

I'm no tactical expert, though, I always quit my careers 12-18 months in when the tactics I have lovingly created stop working due to sudden and complete player incompetence and being railroaded into conceding stupid fluke goals.

Played QPR 4 times trying random things and they scored in each one; a huge looping own goal header, an overhead kick in a packed penalty area, a tap in when all my defenders left their centre forward alone immediately after I scored, and the typical "he didn't mean that!!!" full-back cross shot.

Meanwhile my players are blasting crossfield balls that aren't on, and waiting to be tackled when simple square passes are available

I'm mad.

Thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis. The game calculates the score first, and then fills in the gaps to figure out how it happens, and if your team is way better and the game still calculated that you'll lose that game, you'll see all sorts of impossible loving goals getting hit in. My fave are the stonkers from 45 yards on the volley from a poo poo clogger with long shots 2 and technique 8

# ¿ Jul 21, 2016 08:52

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

Brendan Rodgers posted:

When debating the formations and the defensive strength of your wings etc, you should be having multiple formations anyway.

For example I often have a 4-1-4-1 that I use as a counter tactic, but another one on the next tab that basically just puts the wingers up to the AM tier, and changes the mentality to attacking, now it's a 4-1-2-2-1 with 2 inside forwards and it owns teams that sit back. Having just one tactic is foolish imo unless you are using a min/maxed downloaded one.

Yeah this def, I've got an possession controlling 433, if I need it slightly more defensive I just drop the backline back slightly deeper, I've then got a more solid and more possession based 4240 which drops the striker into an AM position to strangle games, and a 4132 which basically drops the wingers into a wider CM role and pushes the AM into a proper striker role. 3 very different versions of basically the same tactic.

kingturnip posted:

Thought I'd check out how World Cup 2026 was getting on in my game:

lol

Iran and Japan have been churning out great regens in my game

# ¿ Jul 23, 2016 12:02

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

sassassin posted:

In FM17 we're going to have to hire player liaisons, data analysts and sports scientists.

I'm glad there's going to be more new broken obtuse interpersonal relationship click menus and a poo poo broken match engine again

# ¿ Aug 9, 2016 12:52

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

Also, why is it so much harder for me to win the league than the Champions League? My last 2 saves I've won the CL a year before winning the PL

# ¿ Aug 9, 2016 12:53

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

St Evan Echoes posted:

Is it because you have more trouble breaking down poo poo teams with 10 behind the ball than going toe to toe?

Generally not, my team seems to get complacent with the really poo poo teams but mostly I only lose if it's a massive margin against the big teams in the league, despite being able to beat them on the continent.
I'll lose like 5-0 away to Arsenal, 4-0 at home to Man U, and then beat both 2-1 agg in the CL or something. This last season I had my best result in the league and finished 2nd, 3 points off the top of the league and like 8 clear of 3rd, but won the CL and FA Cup 3-0. Last season I made the final of both FA Cup and CL, and barely scraped CL qualification in the league. Idk.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2016 15:24

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

It's actually because I have a ~~pirated~~ turkish copy

# ¿ Aug 9, 2016 16:09

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

I've finally found a tactic that I'm really happy with though, and it's a bit weird which makes me love it even more. Reminds me of in like 08 when you could just drag formation arrows all over the shop and the engine would crap out and your players would be unmarked all the time ftw

# ¿ Aug 9, 2016 16:10

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

Looks for overlap owns with inside forwards, but if they're poo poo at passing and shooting then maybe don't do that. I'd give your RB individual instructions to get forward more and hug the line, and maybe cross from byline if he's a decent dribbler too.

This is my formation that gets lots of use from good crossing fullbacks:

There's a few individual player instructions too:
SK set to distribute to CBs and roll it out, FBs set to cross from byline, BWM set to more direct passing, IFs to shoot more, roam from position, sit narrow and close down much more, and AMs to hold position and hold up ball.

It basically works that the IFs are your strikers, coming inside off the wing to find opportunities, and the AMs pair up to draw CBs up field and open gaps, and overload the midfield to find passes in behind for the IFs. The FBs then come up into the wide areas and whip crosses in or help hold possession. The front four will all swap positions quite a lot, and ideally the wingers and ams will be both set to swap positions with each other, making it a stupidly fluid system up front like Ronald, Tevez and Rooney era United.
In midfield, the DLP drifts around finding short passes to recycle possession, and the BWM kicks people a lot, but also breaks forward to score quite a few from the edge of the box.

These are the 3 most important players in my system, a wide striker, an AM, and the DLP. The only real other thing to look out for is to make sure the BWM, aside from having decent defensive attributes, also knows where the goal is.

Zach Clough, Marcelo Meli and Sam Byram are also all good examples of the sort of player useful for that position

Bogan Krkic fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Aug 13, 2016

# ¿ Aug 13, 2016 02:51

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

sassassin posted:

You've turned on the two settings that tell your players to ignore your instructions.

Full-backs on automatic lol

2 CL finals in a row tell me I'm doing something right

# ¿ Aug 13, 2016 21:59

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

iirc I actually spent big money on him and it took him like 3 or 4 years to stop making really costly mistakes. Marcelo Meli is probably the most important player I've bought

# ¿ Aug 14, 2016 08:50

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 23:22

Bogan Krkic: Oct 31, 2010; Swedish style? No.
Yugoslavian style? Of course not.
It has to be Zlatan-style.

Lol sassy, the three ones you mention being able to turn off with no difference actually make a huge difference, and make the tactic more effective. Idk about the prevent short distribution one working, I've always been skeptical about it doing anything but it does seem to push one of the AMs higher when the opposition have possession in defence a bit more frequently, although if you've got an actual striker on the pitch it barely changes anything. The more expressive and roam from position buttons don't just tell your players to ignore your instructions, more expressive requests that players try lower percentage options, and roam from position means that your players are less structured, which is good because I want them all to move across the pitch to open up areas for the lower percentage options to work better. It does also mean that if say, your fullback pushes forward and central more than expected, someone will drop into the space to cover him, rather than ensuring they stay in their own position.

# ¿ Aug 15, 2016 04:55

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Armchair Quarterback > Football Manager series: It's your tactics, mate

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