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Crosspost from the GBS thread (yeah, yeah)spregalia posted:Current MU person here. Allow me to provide a brief timeline of events: This guy seems to have a valid point; the main complaints seem to boil down to "some students are racist" and it makes it seem kinda silly that their immediate demands included resignations and "acknowledgements of privilege", are there examples of the administration explicitly or tacitly supporting racism or discrimination? Or did they just become the scapegoat?
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Nov 9, 2015 18:06
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euphronius posted:The school does have an obligation to make the campus a safe place contra to gbs poster. For some definitions of "safe place", yeah of course they do. They have an obligation to protect their students from physical harm, which it seems they've done just fine. They have an obligation to harshly punish racism and hate speech, which again it seems they've done even if maybe they could have been more diligent about it, i.e. making a statement or taking some kind of action or something about the student association president getting "friend of the family" yelled at him from the car. Where is it that the administration fell so short that the president's resignation was warranted? Edit: BonoMan posted:It's not just about the events that are racist if I'm understanding correctly. It's the abhorrent way the University has handled it time and again. This is basically what I'm looking for. All I've found or been shown have been responses from the administration that, while certainly not perfect, are a far cry from "abhorrent"
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Nov 9, 2015 18:26
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Trabisnikof posted:The healthcare notifications, the lack of response to racist vandalism, the horrible way he's handled issues with the students? Like its university president 101 that you actually talk to the protesters or backup, you don't have your driver drive through the protesters, that just pisses them off more. The healthcare thing is totally legit. However, and maybe I'm just being insensitive here, but somebody drawing a swastika on the bathroom wall in poop doesn't, to me, seem like the kind of thing that warrants a response from anybody but the janitor. Like, there are probably swastikas on the majority of American public bathroom stall walls at this point.
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Nov 9, 2015 18:31
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Kro-Bar posted:Don't forget that Wolfe also blamed black students for their own oppression. I can't blame them for being pissed off. Hahahaha ok well a clearer picture begins to come together here huh
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Nov 9, 2015 18:33
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Lotka Volterra posted:Yeah, the picture painted by former black students of Mizzou around here and TFF has been much less rosy than that one post by a current student in GBS. Also willing to bet GBS poster is white. Well yeah I mean I wasn't trying to imply that I was just taking that guy's word for it, the main thing is that I didn't really understand where the University President fit into the whole equation and why his resignation would be so high on their demand list, and a cursory Googling didn't turn up anything too egregious.
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Nov 9, 2015 18:37
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Dr. Tough posted:There's even a video of it: Yeah this is a really good way to never have anyone sympathize with you. It's hard enough for me to sympathize with a kid getting a $170000 Ivy League education complaining about "safe spaces" in the first place, like, you better make a drat good case
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Nov 9, 2015 18:52
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euphronius posted:Why are you using scare quotes around the term safe places. Because in the vast majority of cases where people are talking about setting up safe spaces they're being whiny babies. Blatant racism and hate speech is an obvious exception to this opinion, and of course we should be doing everything we can to eliminate it from the public sphere.
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Nov 9, 2015 18:55
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Popular Thug Drink posted:"whiny babies" worried about "blatant racism" oh come on did you even read the whole post
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Nov 9, 2015 18:56
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euphronius posted:They are complaining about blatant hate speech so... Not in that video from Yale. They're complaining about somebody suggesting that maybe the school shouldn't go overboard in policing offensive Halloween costumes.
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Nov 9, 2015 18:57
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:way i see it, safe spaces are a way for people to have a conversation and think about things like racism and hate speech, and how it affects people, and you know, to express their own free speech and expression This is actually my fundamental problem with so-called safe spaces; the people with the lovely awful opinions don't need a safe space to express themselves, they just loving do it, all over the place and all the time. Waiting for an appropriately "safe" space to be set up before you feel that you can even start having the conversation is hopeless and self-defeating. If "safe space" is being used in the context of being safe from physical violence or persecution, then yeah let's definitely try to make as many places safe-spaces as possible. Let's try to make the whole world a safe space. If "safe space" is being used in the context of excluding loud idiots in order to start having meaningful discussions, then that battle was lost before you even started fighting it, and even if it wasn't it's not the right way to be fighting it anyway.
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Nov 9, 2015 19:35
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zoux posted:I hope they only use this power for good. With any luck they can at least use it to start getting paid
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Nov 9, 2015 19:37
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Amergin posted:This sound applicable to gun-free zones. you might think so, but it's actually not
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Nov 9, 2015 19:58
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Radbot posted:"These grown men and women have repeatedly rebuked Obamacare at the polls, but they know not what they want. They deserve empathy for their decisions, because I have decided they are wrong. Poor widdle Southerners." Yes they do deserve empathy because they were gratuitously misled by the powerful and persuasive into voting directly against their own self interest and that is a bummer man
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Nov 10, 2015 00:25
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FAUXTON posted:They're poor rurals driven by spite and racial resentment, not someone's slow kid who believes in Santa at the age of 14. That doesn't necessarily mean they should die of preventable disease but it's probably good to continually point out how hosed up their beliefs are while making sure they don't die for lack of penicillin or heparin or whatnot. Yeah nobody was talking about whether or not to advocate against their politics, we're saying that you should maintain a healthy level of empathy and understanding of the root causes of these phenomena rather than dehumanizing people for getting sucked into what we CONSTANTLY POINT OUT on this forum is a well-oiled political propaganda machine that works with startling efficacy. making GBS threads on poor, ignorant people for being poor and ignorant is just as bad when nice liberals do it as it is when those inbred horse-fucker bog-people do it god damnit they deserve their miseryyyyy 
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Nov 10, 2015 02:02
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There goes condescending old Hillary again, talking to people like they're childr... wait
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Nov 10, 2015 02:11
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Joementum posted:It's more that one of the polls showing him up with Trump was a bit of an outlier. Things like this are specifically designed to be unreadable to us color-blinds aren't they
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Nov 11, 2015 00:43
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The Kingfish posted:You like the one that was falsely reported last night? Like, you understand that racism and discrimination are not things that sprang into being last week right?
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Nov 11, 2015 18:30
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Casimir Radon posted:There's been racial incidents at the campus. In many of the cases involving students that were caught they were presumably punished for their actions. Recently there's been some racial incidents, one may not have involved students at all because it's not easy to track down a random group of guys pickup when that's all you have to go on. Then there was the incident where somebody drew a swastika on the wall with poop. Unless somebody saw something that's pretty hard to investigate as well. If anything people should feel sorry for the weird idiot who thought that this was their big statement. This is only notable because they brought the football team in and forced the president to resign. College sports are awful and have really hosed up academia in this country. Reread this post and just look at all the arbitrary assumptions you've made here
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Nov 12, 2015 07:38
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farraday posted:Your comparison is stupid and if you thought about it for more than the 2 seconds it took to write it down you'd realize having a vegetarian day is not the same as having someone preach to you while you eat either about the saving hand of Jesus Christ or that meat is murder. In what way is it different
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Nov 14, 2015 17:49
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A Winner is Jew posted:This is entirely fair and I probably should have said "it mostly works out better than if the US had done gently caress all" instead. Yeah we could have done things differently or better, but it's not really controversial to say that doing nothing would have been worse than what we ended up doing anyway. I think you'll find that that's actually still pretty controversial.
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Nov 21, 2015 23:48
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the_paradigm_shift posted:Why is pointing out that black people are frequently targeted by police and shot at an alarmingly higher rate a bad thing? I mean.... yeah, basically. It was a bad frame for them to pick. Your average person who has implicit biases but doesn't consciously recognize them is going to immediately balk at the idea that "some lives matter more than others? More than MINE?? I don't like that." It's another case of concision beating explanation every time. Fox assholes get to say "nope, ALL lives matter  " but the activists have to stop and explain institutional prejudice and how power structures DON'T treat black lives like they matter and etc., etc. and by then you've already lost the messaging war.
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Nov 23, 2015 18:51
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SedanChair posted:You've been found out now. Your brain perceives "black lives matter" as "black lives matter more than other ones." I meekly submit myself for reeducation No seriously though I guess what I'm saying is that "black lives matter too" would have actually been a better slogan, but it is a good point that the opposition is going to smear and degrade them no matter what the messaging is. It just seems like in the brain of the average person who's not an explicit racist but still has lots of prejudices, "black lives matter" actually IS likely to be parsed as "...more than yours" and it just sucks how easy it is to set up cheap but effective rhetorical traps based on a dumb slogan
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Nov 23, 2015 19:19
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Octatonic posted:Okay, so the argument is : if only blacks expressed themselves better, racist white people would listen to them? No actually that's extremely reductive, but thanks
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Nov 23, 2015 19:21
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For Christ's sake, there is more of a gray area in the public discourse and consciousness than "the cops did nothing wrong, hang the darkies" vs "black lives matter" come on people
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Nov 23, 2015 19:24
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Popular Thug Drink posted:yeah, it is kind of a problem that they are black and they're trying to speak to people who irrationally hate black people No. The problem is exactly that they are NOT trying to speak to an absurd caricature of the entire non-sympathetic public that irrationally hates black people, they are trying to speak to people who genuinely believe they are not racists, even though they still hold implicit biases and support a system that holds up implicit biases, and I put to you that the overwhelming majority of the population falls into the second category and COULD actually be convinced
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Nov 23, 2015 19:29
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Octatonic posted:You're welcome! Yes, it is reductive, but it seems like we're falling into a trap where the perfect is the enemy of the good, while at the same time condemning a peaceful movement as too radical? I just don't really understand what's being put forth here. I don't think anybody has said BLM is too radical, we're arguing that they could improve their messaging. But to a degree you're right, we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, which is why I imagine basically everybody in this thread supports BLM as it is anyway
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Nov 23, 2015 19:31
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Expanding on what Popular Thug Drink said up there, we still hear poo poo about Black History Month every year. It doesn't matter what you call the movement, because people will use the same messaging against it. "Well, really, we need to be nicer to everybody, this doesn't need to be a race thing! Right, but the harder you make it for them to do that, the better and more successful your movement will be. The slogan "black lives matter" is comically easy to twist into something lovely, as we've observed. So to come back to my original point, even when some people will never be convinced, messaging matters, and "black lives matter" is decidedly suboptimal messaging.
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Nov 23, 2015 19:37
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"Black Lives Matter Too" Seriously. Edit: "Black Lives Also Matter" BLAM!
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Nov 23, 2015 19:45
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GlitchThief posted:True. I guess it's much easier to fault the oppressed for failing to fight back correctly than is to fault the society that continues to denigrate and murder them. Once again, "faulting the oppressed" is not what's going on here. In fact if you read closely, you might find that we're actually brainstorming about what ways might also work, and possibly even work better!, for standing up for the oppressed
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Nov 23, 2015 19:53
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i've got an idea: let's stop faulting the oppressed what a wild idea how did it not occur to me before
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Nov 23, 2015 20:02
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Radish posted:It's not the messaging that is pissing them off. They are pissed at being confronted with the fact that black people are treated worse by society than white people. They have been sold an idea that America is a meritocracy and you get exactly what you deserve. If black people are treated worse by the police and a larger percentage of them are in jail than other races it must be their fault and BLM activists are whiners that are trying to pull a con. Being more specific in their slogan isn't going to change anyone's opinion. Is isn't brainless moderates that are putting in the effort to publicly say "All Lives Matter", it's racists that know exactly what they are saying in order to shut down discussion. Anything slogan BLM used would get the same treatment and saying they should be more careful not to offend white people is silly. I understand that but in this case the slogan that was arrived upon, spontaneously or otherwise, makes it so trivially easy to deflect and change the conversation that the substance of the protests doesn't even have to come up, much less be contradicted. Like is your logic here that any avenue of protest is equally easily shut down and discredited, and therefore any form of protest that does occur is equally effective just by existing? And thus ways to improve the effectiveness of the protest aren't worth considering?
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Nov 23, 2015 20:08
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Popular Thug Drink posted:you really keep insisting that "black lives matter" is critically flawed as a glib rhetorical statement but it doesn't appear to be any more flawed than uh anything else that a black person might say or write could be better != is terrible, fyi
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Nov 23, 2015 20:11
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Popular Thug Drink posted:hey, collective outrage of young persons of color reacting to a racist and oppresive society that murders you on the street! calm down and get your poo poo together if you want whitebread moderately racist america to be on your side! get a job! The only position your dial has is "cranked to eleven" isn't it? I'm gonna take a wild stab and guess that you probably don't have a great track record of convincing people of the correctness your opinions.
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Nov 23, 2015 20:16
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Radish posted:I posted this last page. To be clear I don't think the slogan is, by far, the primary reason that the movement isn't resonating with moderates, but I think it is a facet, and that it's important to be aware of what works and what doesn't if you want to mount an effective protest.
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Nov 23, 2015 20:18
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Yeah righteous indignation sure is fun but I'd prefer to see actual things be accomplished and to have actual progress happen. OTOH and don't get to say as many mean jokes about people if I actually care about persuading them, hmmmm.... what to do.....
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Nov 23, 2015 20:22
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The Kingfish posted:Historically? Yes. He's made it quite clear that he's not interested in actually succeeding or accomplishing anything so I'd say this moderately valid point is going to fall on deaf ears. Or rather, be mocked without in any way being substantively responded to.
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Nov 23, 2015 20:24
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Popular Thug Drink posted:ok step one for ending police oppression: badger millenials on twitter to use the corrent slogans OK so we've moved from "I think their choice of slogan could probably be better" to "badger millenials on twitter into talking how I like"
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Nov 23, 2015 20:29
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Popular Thug Drink posted:*sharpies #AllOrgansMatter on a Race for the Cure sign* Do you feel that there's ANY capacity in which the current civil rights protests might be improved? Do you think that they have any shortcomings at all? Are you interested in discussing why or why not?
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Nov 23, 2015 20:32
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Popular Thug Drink posted:whether i do or not is a distinct coversation from me breaking your balls over your avowed belief that part of the reason white america rejects black opinions is because a group of disconnected protesters rallied behind the incorrect hashtag Ok so now I see where the disconnect is. I'm not intending to overstate the importance of a dumb hashtag. It's a facet of the problem but not the most important, or even necessarily a major one, but it's the one that came up in the thread so that's what I talked about. Although, if you want to win over millenials you pretty much have to be a pro-tier hashtagger, so maybe it IS more important than I thought....
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Nov 23, 2015 20:39
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Radish posted:This sounds iffy but I am willing to try it and be wrong in my love for all pizzas except for godless sauceless pizza. My mom is a diabetic and has to order sauceless pizza and it just fills me with existential despair every time 
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Nov 23, 2015 20:43
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