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Frogfingers posted:The European lion went extinct somewhere between the first and second crusade. This is why you see it on really old tincture everywhere from Norway to Persia. I know this was some pages back, but it really annoyed me. Sorry but this is not true at all. The European Lion went extinct in the holocene period and there is no Archeological evidence for it in historic time. You might as well talk about the European Griffon or Dragon, since you see that from Norway to Spain. If you look at antic greek art, it's clear that they don't have first hand knowledge about Lions. They often portrays female Lions with manes. It's also clear that they portray Asiatic lions, since they have to dark spots above the eyes, which both roman and greek artist thought was small horns. Medieval lions in art are even worse, since they are poor copies of what little antique art, they had access to. The term the Silk Road(s) was first coined in the late 19th century by ar german named Ferdinand von Richthofen. Before that, nobody talked about a silk road to China. In fact most silk in antiquity and medieval times came from India, where they collected silk pupae from non-domesticated silkworms. (unlike the chinese silk, that came and comes from domesticated silkworms). And the main thing traded along the silk road was metals and dyes. In early imperial rome, the trade with India was such a big thing that Pliny the elder complained about it. In early Imperial rome, roughly 120 ships annually made the trip to India and back using the Monsoon winds. Just 100 years before, it was about 20 ships. Atreiden has a new favorite as of 23:47 on Nov 9, 2015 |
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Nov 9, 2015 20:54
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Aesop Poprock posted:Trying to correct facts in this thread is a fools errand. I was gritting my teeth reading through that one dudes post about ancient Egypt being a progressive wonderland for women Yeah saw that one too. I guess you could say that in Ptolemaic and roman Egypt, Egyptian women did have more rights and freedom than Greek Women, and to a lesser degree Roman. But calling it an equal society is certainly wrong. The Egyptian Kingdom in Ptolemaic times and as Roman province, since the local people where allowed to keep their old laws and courts. Mening a citizen could in theory go to three different courts, with different laws, an Egyptian, a Greek (based on Athenian law) and a Roman, depending on the status of the Citizen. For instance could a Half Egyptian half greek citizen go to both courts. For Greek-Egyptians women couldn't inherit, but Egyptian could. So we sometimes see women who lost in a Greek court, going to an Egyptian with the same complaint and winning. Citizenship depended on your parents and where you were born. From Ptolemaic times, since they where Greek (I know they wher Macedone, but it was a Greek kingdom in antiquity) we see Greek colony-cities where Greek laws apply. This continues in roman times, with the addtion of Roman Colonies. Another fun fact. The Word Gypsy is derived from Egyptian. When the romani started to arrive in England in the late 16ht- early 17th century, the government mistook them as Egyptians. You can see anti-poor/ anti-begger pamphlets calling for vagabonds and Egyptians to be thrown out of cities. Later Egyptians becomes Gyptians and in the end Gypsies. rock rock posted:Not saying your wrong because what do I know, but wikipedia says Aristotle said there were lions in Greece in 300 BC. Fair enough about Caucasus, it's really a border case and a bit hard to call Europe. As far as I know, there is still no actual Archaeological evidence for lions in Greece by Historic times, but I concede with several written texst mentioning them, there certainy could be some pockets of Greece where they lived in antuiqity, though written sources should be taken with a large grain of salt, in that periode. The link though mentions that they where extinct by 100 B.C. in Europe and that the last fossil record dates to 3000 b.c. Doesn't really change the fact that Greek and Roman lions in art, can be traced back to Assyrian depictions. Atreiden has a new favorite as of 13:21 on Nov 10, 2015 |
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Nov 10, 2015 12:57
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Besesoth posted:This is true, but it's not really a point in favor of "there were no lions in Europe". It's kind of like saying that because Roman statues of humans draw on previous Greek statuary tradition, there must not have been any humans in Italy. Good thing that that was never my argument then. My initial response was to a guy saying that you saw lions in art all over Europe in the medieval periode, because there where Lions in Europe by medieval time. I pointed out that by the time historic time, ea Antiquity, the lion was already extinct in Europe. This is backed up by the fact that there are no fossil data younger than 3000 B.C. A couple of people pointed out that there are some written sources from greek mentioning lions, and that there still where lions in Caucasus by the medievel periode. My second point was that these written sources was fairly dubious and that Caucasus, on the edge of Europa, doesn't explain Lion imagery in the rest of Europa. Especially considering that The Caucasus wasn't really in much contact with Europe and that we can trace lion imagery back Roman/greek antique art, who in turn initially borrowed it from Assyrian (and to a lesser degree Egyptian art).
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Nov 10, 2015 18:24
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