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oliwan posted:my five closest friends with philosophy degrees, all early thirties: at what refined level of metaphysics is government bureaucracy a better environment than corporate
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Nov 12, 2015 17:56
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inward and outward posted:So ten years after college they have all found adult jobs. I didn't say anything about how long they have had their jobs? Anyway, i don't know anyone who left university before 25. it's pretty much standard to remain at uni for 6+ years in Holland and the 10th year student is a common sight, although now much less so than 20 years ago because the government decided to cut back student allowances. the state used to give you free money as a student indefinitely, now it's 3-4 years for a BA and 1-2 years for an MA so students tend to finish earlier.
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Nov 12, 2015 18:11
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Read philosophy books, starting now. Get a degree in something that will afford you the leasure time and money to enjoy philosophy. You won't sacrifice much by studying philosophy outside your degree, or as a minor.
Dominoes fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Nov 12, 2015 |
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Nov 12, 2015 18:15
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Quoted for truth. I am literally doing the same thing except a few years behind and without drugs (which come to think of it was probably why I don't have any remaining philosophy friends). For anyone considering taking these classes, see if your college offers a Philosophy of Science class, especially if you are a STEM or 'hard' science major. It is likely to be fairly advanced, so you will need some fundamentals and prerequisites first. Still, you could find it to be a fantastic resource for understanding why science works the way that it does, learn to to delineate what is science and what isn't, and then discover some interesting (disputed) problems with the scientific method.
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Nov 12, 2015 18:36
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Magnetic North posted:Quoted for truth. I am literally doing the same thing except a few years behind and without drugs (which come to think of it was probably why I don't have any remaining philosophy friends). Philosophy of science and epistemology were my big areas. That was a lot of fun to study and I wish that stuff was in philosophy 100 rather than "how the the Matrix is like Plato's allegory of the Cave and Descartes."
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Nov 13, 2015 03:25
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:Philosophy of science and epistemology were my big areas. That was a lot of fun to study and I wish that stuff was in philosophy 100 rather than "how the the Matrix is like Plato's allegory of the Cave and Descartes." Yeah, I understand the need to make it relevant to pop-culture-fed children, and I don't think The Matrix is the worst example, and freshmen pandering permeates everything, but... yeah. That is always so lame. It reminds me how the one thing that used to anger me about bookstores was seeing "The Simpsons and Philosophy" and "The Sopranos and Philosophy" and other stuff like that. I'm sure those books still exist, but now there are no bookstores so I don't have to see them anymore.
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Nov 13, 2015 04:43
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Tao Jones posted:Some people have base souls made of iron or brass, fit only for a life of labor and money-chasing. Other people have silver souls and can at least be educated and molded into a form that maintains the collective conspiracy which we call society, such as soldiers or middle management. Still other people have golden souls and are fit to seek after the hidden truths of being. This pretentious dweeb exhibits a compelling argument to avoid philosophy.
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Nov 13, 2015 15:39
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I don't know, he presents a pretty salient point that if you don't buy into that bullshit that philosophy isn't the right degree.
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Nov 14, 2015 02:43
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Nthing the advice for pairing a philosophy degree with another, more marketable major. As others have said, the actual subject matter you learn in philosophy isn't really going to be transferable outside of academia, but unfortunately I think the basics of logic and argumentation that you learn in a philosophy program can be much harder to come by in other disciplines in undergrad, especially the sciences. Going into college, I knew I wanted to study biology, but after a couple years, I realized I didn't want to pursue research or an advanced degree in biology, so I added philosophy as a double major. I ended up getting an entry level job at a small, healthcare consulting company and have since moved to a commercial analytics role at a large biotech company. I truly believe that the basics of logic and argumentation that I developed in my philosophy program were crucial to my professional 'success' -- ultimately it made me a much better communicator, and being a great communicator is one of the best competencies you can have to stand out as a job candidate/interviewee/new hire/etc.
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Nov 15, 2015 21:39
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I have a master's in philosophy, from a Scandinavian country. I don't know how this major/minor stuff works. I got a bachelor's in philosophy, then my masters. I don't think it ever helped me get a job. I have had jobs in media and publishing as well as teaching uni level courses where it might have been useful, but connections and experience were probably the important factor. After finishing my thesis, I went for a year of history, then pedagogy (sp?) to teach, and finally additional pedagogy to teach students with learning disabilities and other difficulties. I teach junior high now. As for what you might "use" the degree for, it's been said. It's not trade school or vocational. Other than teaching philosophy there is no career where a philosophy degree is a prerequisite. I studied philosophy because the questions philosophers attempt to answer are the most fascinating I have ever encountered. My thoughts now are that it's probably the best thing I ever did with my life. I wish I had done a year of English or Spanish rather than history, as this would have made me more attractive in teaching, though.
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Nov 29, 2015 18:51
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Short answer: Don't. Source: One of my BAs is in philosophy. Long answer: getting a degree in philosophy will train you to be an analytical machine capable of critiquing the poo poo out of things, writing well, and thinking critically. Unfortunately, for the vast majority of jobs you will apply for when you graduate, the people doing the hiring will look at your degree and think you aren't qualified to do anything. If your dream is to get a PhD in philosophy double don't do it. Less than 25% of philosophy PhDs get full time teaching positions. So no matter how awesome you think you are, you are probably never going to get a job. Finally, a BA in Philosophy is a fine degree if you are prepared to double major. For instance, I double majored in Philosophy and Political Science. It was that second degree, before I went to grad school (not for Philosophy), that got me my first post-college job.
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Nov 30, 2015 02:58
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I double majored in philosophy and another commonly despised liberal arts degree (with a minor in a third, scorned field). I really, really enjoyed studying philosophy and I think I'm a better person for it. Definitely the most challenging of the various liberal arts I've studied. Given its critical nature, I think you need a teacher to push you to get the full effect. You can learn a lot by just reading, but you can get away with a lot if lazy thinking that way. With that said, in retrospect I should have definitely double majored in philosophy and something more practical. The liberal arts triple threat that I bring to the table seems crazy when i look back on it. At the time I was determined to teach at the University level, so I didn't reflect on non academic tracks. I'm gainfully employed now, but that's a combination of factors. The degree helps, but I really think liberal arts degrees are lumped together in most people's minds... the specific subject is more or less for trivia. For what it's worth, while interviewing, my current big Boss remarked on my philosophy degree and thought it was impressive (in addition to a previous hiring manager ). However, these types are rare and you're basically banking on a shared interest. So yeah, hedge your bets while enlightening your mind. Thesaurus fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Nov 30, 2015 |
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Nov 30, 2015 05:25
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Philosophy isn't necessarily any less relevant than a degree in political science, history, literature or any of the generalist/liberal arts options (I'd even lump "business" in there). The concept of a degree being one metric of being able to see something through to completion is real. "Everyone" is getting a degree of some kind, so, what sets you apart is what else you can contribute. Marketing/Communication, Sales, Finance, IT, Development, Human Resources are six broad occupational categories in any Acme Inc. widget company. Philosophy as a set of skills can help with any of these. IT might be the trickiest, but that's a special beast because you'll set yourself up for a never-ending cycle of retrying as the industry eats itself every n years. I remember a few years ago when there were some popular journalism articles about the surge in anthropology and other liberal arts-trained people getting jobs at tech companies because they brought different perspectives. That's still true (and honestly hasn't ever not been). Besides, having a reason aside from "it will get me a job" for trudging through university is often a saving grace. Dispassion leads to burnout, no matter how good the money or (false sense of) security is.
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Nov 30, 2015 07:13
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Tenacious J posted:Would a pragmatist pay $50,000 and 4 years of their prime for a guided tour through material also available at a library? Yes, because you really need to be trained to read philosophy. I had a friend who considered himself a philosophical autodidact. He literally highlighted entire philosophy books and "read" the Phenomenology of Spirit and had no idea what the master slave dialectic was.  In all seriousness, unless you're loving Wittgenstein, you really benefit from a formal Philosophy education; that is, if you want to learn how to read Philosophy and critique the poo poo out of stuff. Not if you actually want a job based on being a college graduate. Knowing how to read philosophy helped me run rings around Political Theorists who, for instance, haphazardly use Kant, when I was getting my PhD (in Political Science).
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Nov 30, 2015 16:54
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ZombieLenin posted:Yes, because you really need to be trained to read philosophy. I had a friend who considered himself a philosophical autodidact. He literally highlighted entire philosophy books and "read" the Phenomenology of Spirit and had no idea what the master slave dialectic was. To be fair, no one needs to know this because Hegel sucks.
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Nov 30, 2015 17:13
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Possible unpopular opinion incoming, but college doesn't have to be about getting a piece of paper that helps you get This Specific Job. I went to college knowing I wanted to study English Lit, fully aware that that I would get asked "What are you going to do with that?" five times a week. And I would tell people I didn't know. But I enjoyed studying it, I enjoyed my classes and my professors, and that helped me keep motivated to finish my degree in 4 years. It also was the program that got me started doing volunteer work, which led me to apply to the Peace Corps, and that experience helped me grow as a person and shaped my career path. It also is the reason I got the job I have now, and will all be valuable with me moving forward career-wise. So yeah, maybe if I think "I put myself 20k in debt for a degree that many employers see as not very useful" it looks bad. But I choose to see it as just another step in my life, one that has helped me to the point where I'm at. I made some of my closest friends, met my favorite teachers, had some great experiences, and figured out myself more because of it. Maybe an Accounting degree would have helped me get a nice job at 22, maybe I would have dropped out because I hated it. All I know if that I've never regretted choosing to study English.
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Dec 1, 2015 02:32
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Tequila Sunrise posted:Possible unpopular opinion incoming, but college doesn't have to be about getting a piece of paper that helps you get This Specific Job. I went to college knowing I wanted to study English Lit, fully aware that that I would get asked "What are you going to do with that?" five times a week. And I would tell people I didn't know. But I enjoyed studying it, I enjoyed my classes and my professors, and that helped me keep motivated to finish my degree in 4 years. It also was the program that got me started doing volunteer work, which led me to apply to the Peace Corps, and that experience helped me grow as a person and shaped my career path. It also is the reason I got the job I have now, and will all be valuable with me moving forward career-wise. Are you me? Identical story here (including peace corps), but in retrospect I'd still advise double majoring English/Philosophy + something with more caché... ...Or just study what you like and leverage Peace Corps afterwards, as we both apparently did 
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Dec 1, 2015 04:53
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Tequila Sunrise posted:Possible unpopular opinion incoming, but college doesn't have to be about getting a piece of paper that helps you get This Specific Job. I went to college knowing I wanted to study English Lit, fully aware that that I would get asked "What are you going to do with that?" five times a week. And I would tell people I didn't know. But I enjoyed studying it, I enjoyed my classes and my professors, and that helped me keep motivated to finish my degree in 4 years. It also was the program that got me started doing volunteer work, which led me to apply to the Peace Corps, and that experience helped me grow as a person and shaped my career path. It also is the reason I got the job I have now, and will all be valuable with me moving forward career-wise. Might be an unpopular opinion; I think it's a totally correct opinion because it's been my experience as well. My undergrad is in philosophy. Firstly, studying philosophy helped me develop two skills that I use every day in my current job as a midwife: critical thinking skills (very useful when making a diagnosis, for example) and the ability to explain complicated concepts very simply. Second, studying philosophy made me a better and more interesting person because I learned how to really think carefully about issues that are fundamental to the human experience. I'm a better citizen, a better partner, a better friend, and a better colleague because I have a philosophy degree. Last, studying philosophy was really fun and interesting and I got to spend four years doing something awesome with smart, awesome people. Of my graduating class, the most common occupations seem to be media, academia and the law. Of the folks I've stayed in touch with personally, one (my spouse) is an environmental scientist, one is a business consultant, one is a tattoo artist, several are government bureaucrats, one is an editor at Buzzfeed, two more are print journalists, one is a nurse, one has a web design company, and one is in politics. There's no "philosopher" job for which an undergraduate degree in philosophy prepares you. Rather, a degree in philosophy, if you do it right (i.e. you do it at a school where the professors and your fellow students are really smart and interesting and you work really really hard) puts you in touch with a bunch of cool people who go on to do cool stuff, teaches you how to think well and be an interesting person, and gives you a good foundation for future training. I would be a much shittier midwife if I hadn't studied philosophy (and actually would probably not be a midwife at all since what sparked my interest in midwifery was taking a bunch of bioethics courses and writing lots of papers on pregnancy from a bioethics standpoint). I also don't agree that Thesaurus posted:something with more cachet is necessarily better. You never know how a particular field of study will be perceived. When I was interviewing for residency a lot of practice groups were really interested that I had studied philosophy instead of the usual round of pre-med whatever. Dogfish fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Dec 1, 2015 |
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Dec 1, 2015 05:14
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Tequila Sunrise posted:Possible unpopular opinion incoming, but college doesn't have to be about getting a piece of paper that helps you get This Specific Job. I went to college knowing I wanted to study English Lit, fully aware that that I would get asked "What are you going to do with that?" five times a week. And I would tell people I didn't know. But I enjoyed studying it, I enjoyed my classes and my professors, and that helped me keep motivated to finish my degree in 4 years. It also was the program that got me started doing volunteer work, which led me to apply to the Peace Corps, and that experience helped me grow as a person and shaped my career path. It also is the reason I got the job I have now, and will all be valuable with me moving forward career-wise. It doesn't have to be but unless you are so remote from the very possibility of financial hardship that you can just casually blow tens of thousands of dollars on a fun hobby at 20 it should at least be a significant concern, and you should strive to have a concrete plan for your post-college life that doesn't involve you making money. Peace Corps isn't a bad one, though it's getting a lot harder to get into from what I can tell you can make friends and have great experiences and grow as a person lots of ways, that's not something that can only be achieved through going 20K in the hole on an English degree. For folks who have to be self-supporting after college that's taking a real gamble that you'll get lucky and find something totally unrelated to what you've been doing with your life thus far that'll pay you like skilled labor or else you'll be capping off your four years of fun literary summer camp with a decade of drone work and loan companies owning everything you make past rent and ramen A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Dec 1, 2015 |
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Dec 1, 2015 07:26
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:It doesn't have to be but unless you are so remote from the very possibility of financial hardship that you can just casually blow tens of thousands of dollars on a fun hobby at 20 it should at least be a significant concern, and you should strive to have a concrete plan for your post-college life that doesn't involve you making money. Peace Corps isn't a bad one, though it's getting a lot harder to get into from what I can tell For the record, I do not come from money and paid for college mostly myself (Student loans, plus parents helped with rent) while working full-time at a local grocery store. Now I'm not advocating just going to college 'because it's fun', but the fact is you are more employable with a degree than without one. Of course there are lots of other options and a degree is not required, and going 70k in debt for a degree in 'General Studies' is probably not a very good idea. With that in mind I still think going to college is a great experience regardless. I went to a pretty standard State University, so your mileage may very at MIT or Georgetown or wherever, but my college environment was amazing because it was a great mix of 'You are here to learn something' but also 'This time in your life is well suited to have a shitload of fun and try and sorts of new things'. I did both of those. I think it really boils down to what you want out of life. Some people want a good job that pays lots of money. If that is your goal then you would likely be well-served by getting an MBA or something. I have a friend who did a 5-year MBA program at a nice private university, and got a good job at 24. He's making sweet money in Chicago. However, he works about 70 hours a week sitting on a computer in an office and likely will be for the foreseeable future. For me personally, I would hate that. I don't make much money but I have been able to travel, see and do things most people never will, and spend my time doing the things I enjoy. Even then, it's not always up to you. A guy I went to school with got into Harvard Law, but got a brain cyst and had to come home so his family could help him. No sure things in life, might as well be happy while you can.
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Dec 1, 2015 08:04
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:It doesn't have to be but unless you are so remote from the very possibility of financial hardship that you can just casually blow tens of thousands of dollars on a fun hobby at 20 it should at least be a significant concern, and you should strive to have a concrete plan for your post-college life that doesn't involve you making money. Peace Corps isn't a bad one, though it's getting a lot harder to get into from what I can tell My parents kicked in 50% of my expenses for my undergrad and I paid for the rest with scholarships and working three jobs. I went to school in Canada where tuition is cheaper than the States, but the average student debt here is still ~$30 000. $30K of debt over ten years is very doable if you're making $25-$30K, which is a reasonable expectation for someone just out of school even if you don't go on to do professional training and get a high-paying job. Most of my friends who went into the work force right after school ended up working in journalism/media or as bureaucrats, for example, and that's definitely less than they were making. Yes, do not go into $70K of debt for a philosophy degree. That is to say, if you can't figure out how to study philosophy for a reasonable amount of money, don't. Learning to be a good critical thinker and developing excellent communication skills (among all the other benefits of a liberal arts education) is not just "a fun hobby." It's skill-building that helps you be a better professional and a better person. Of course nobody should treat university like adult summer camp (at least not all the time). But the habit of casually denigrating the "soft skills" people get from liberal arts degrees is really frustrating to me because it's so narrow-minded and short-sighted.
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Dec 1, 2015 17:46
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Dogfish posted:But the habit of casually denigrating the "soft skills" people get from liberal arts degrees is really frustrating to me because it's so narrow-minded and short-sighted. Those soft skills really are important to being a well rounded person, but it is pretty hard to gauge as an employer. From a resume and a thirty-minute interview it's pretty difficult to tell what kind of analytical and critical thinking skills some dude with a double major in Philosophy/Psychology has, and if he'd be a good fit for this job. Whereas someone with a degree in Technical Writing and a Communications minor is probably going to know how to at least format a basic document.
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Dec 2, 2015 00:52
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I graduated with a lit BA and it actually seriously loving sucked, killed all joy to be found in the topic, and wasted years of my life I'll never get back. I spent some time at a top-tier college before running out of money and that was cool as hell, but it was cool as hell no matter what subject I tried there because good teachers and a good academic environment can make any subject thrilling and enriching to someone who has a little intellectual curiosity. The important thing here is 'go to a good school', not whether the name of your major is flowery and poetic enough to soothe your artist's soul. You will not be chained up in the salt mines forced to labor 70 hours a day for choosing a focus you'll actually be able to get paid to apply every day for the rest of your life, that is a thing that happens to people who want to live that way (and people who are forced to live that way because they took on unsustainable debt to buy frivolous things at the most financially insecure stage of their life). For all other lit guys talk up their communication skills I've seen MBAs and high school dropouts equally well spoken who actually apply those successfully at about the same rate. If the coursework is rigorous enough and your fellow classmates sharp enough you can sharpen your critical thinking to a fine point studying sociology or architectural engineering or the cultural impact of ancient Scythian ball-scratchers; all of these things have more depth of complexity involved in their attendant problem-solving than applying Lacanian analysis to the fucken Great Gatsby. A lit or philosophy or theater degree isn't inherently worthless, but to hear you talk about it you specifically did not actually get anything in particular out of your college experience you wouldn't have gotten as a baseline from a quality education in anything but the very most hopelessly nerdy concentrations, and IMO this is the case for most people who aren't going to St. John's or Cornell or the like. Maybe that's not the case and I've just been confused by your superhuman communication skills, IDK. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Dec 2, 2015 |
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Dec 2, 2015 03:10
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:I graduated with a lit BA and it actually seriously loving sucked, killed all joy to be found in the topic, and wasted years of my life I'll never get back. I spent some time at a top-tier college before running out of money and that was cool as hell, but it was cool as hell no matter what subject I tried there because good teachers and a good academic environment can make any subject thrilling and enriching to someone who has a little intellectual curiosity. The important thing here is 'go to a good school', not whether the name of your major is flowery and poetic enough to soothe your artist's soul. You seem very bitter about the degree you chose to pursue.
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Dec 2, 2015 03:32
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Did you minor in internet psychiatry, or is that something you picked up later?
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Dec 2, 2015 03:49
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oliwan posted:obs? You seem to be posting from the 1990's. You do know there is no longer such a thing as a student allowance and they are all loans right? Even that "free" public transportation card is a loan. If you start your degree in the Netherlands today you can easily end up 20-30k in debt by the time you are done (unless you live at home or work a lot of hours).
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Dec 2, 2015 21:00
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Tequila Sunrise posted:Those soft skills really are important to being a well rounded person, but it is pretty hard to gauge as an employer. From a resume and a thirty-minute interview it's pretty difficult to tell what kind of analytical and critical thinking skills some dude with a double major in Philosophy/Psychology has, and if he'd be a good fit for this job. Whereas someone with a degree in Technical Writing and a Communications minor is probably going to know how to at least format a basic document. Well, for me, one of the main objectives of granting a degree in philosophy is that an employer should know that anyone who holds that degree has demonstrated high levels of competence in critical and analytical thinking, written communication, etc. In the same way that I expect someone with a nursing degree to know how to change a wound dressing, I expect someone with a philosophy degree to reason well from first principles and write a clear and concise argument. I get that in practice that's not always the case (and I think there's an excellent case to be made for reform of the liberal arts, especially where grade inflation, etc is concerned) but this is a problem that I think is grounded in bad educational practice rather than in choice of major. A Wizard of Goatse posted:I graduated with a lit BA and it actually seriously loving sucked, killed all joy to be found in the topic, and wasted years of my life I'll never get back. I spent some time at a top-tier college before running out of money and that was cool as hell, but it was cool as hell no matter what subject I tried there because good teachers and a good academic environment can make any subject thrilling and enriching to someone who has a little intellectual curiosity. The important thing here is 'go to a good school', not whether the name of your major is flowery and poetic enough to soothe your artist's soul. I'm not sure who the "you" is in this post, but on the off-chance it's me (since my last post is close to yours): 1. Yes, you're right. Going to a good school is much better than not going to a good school, and you can very quickly lose all interest in and passion for a subject if it's taught poorly. I definitely would not advise going to a bad school over going to a good one, in the same way that I wouldn't advise overpaying for a degree. 2. I specifically DID get some things in particular from my degree in philosophy that I'm not sure I would have gotten otherwise. Here's why I think that: I completed my midwifery training at one of the best-regarded medical schools in Canada. It was a very competitive program and all my colleagues from STEM backgrounds were really smart, had excellent grades from their undergrads, and were hard workers. I was not and am not smarter than they are. But I consistently had a much easier time making diagnoses, assimilating skills, understanding the "big picture" of clinical practice, and doing patient education than they did. I was the only one who had studied philosophy, and I was consciously and consistently using the skills I had learned during that study. The other students who had a liberal arts background also did better than the ones with a hard science background because what liberal arts education teaches you is how to think clearly and with flexibility, how to understand the scope and context of a problem, and how to clearly formulate and communicate thought. The STEM students had a much easier time passing exams in the life sciences classes (except Pharmacology, which was incredibly difficult for everyone) but a more difficult time translating that knowledge into practice. I'm just talking about my experience here; of course it's not universal. You'll have great communicators who will be great no matter what educational path they choose, and you'll have people who no amount of schooling could teach to utter a coherent thought. But I do know that I use the skills I learned studying philosophy literally every day in clinical practice when I make a diagnosis, give report, or explain a procedure or test to a patient. I don't think everyone should study philosophy. But I think folks who are interested in it will have a great time with the subject matter (if they're truly interested in it and if it's taught well, of course) AND acquire some really valuable skills.
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Dec 2, 2015 21:35
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What BAs/BSs nowadays besides engineering (except for civil and chemical), accounting, and degree+military give you a golden ticket to a sweet sweet middle class job all on their own? (and this is assuming America and not loving Holland where poo poo actually works) Philosophy is a good degree to get into med school if you have all the pre-req science classes too. It's loving amazing for Law. Good for Education/teaching too if that is your thing. Good for other medical careers like PT/OT/Speech Path/PA/etc. considering you have the pre-req science classes. Good for joining the military cause no one gives a gently caress what the degree is in and it's an instant ticket to officer/2nd Lt. . Other than that, expect to spend endless amounts of time trying to convince HR managers with degrees from the University of Phoenix that you are not an idiot. Just get some non-goon friends and ride those loving coattails to mediocrity because no one gives a poo poo what you know 90% of the time unless you are building rocket ships; just that you are Fred's best bud from Uni and are a totally standup chill dude that is a great fit for the company culture or whatever. CRONY UP (or move to Holland)
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Dec 2, 2015 23:08
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Dogfish posted:Well, for me, one of the main objectives of granting a degree in philosophy is that an employer should know that anyone who holds that degree has demonstrated high levels of competence in critical and analytical thinking, written communication, etc. In the same way that I expect someone with a nursing degree to know how to change a wound dressing, I expect someone with a philosophy degree to reason well from first principles and write a clear and concise argument. I get that in practice that's not always the case (and I think there's an excellent case to be made for reform of the liberal arts, especially where grade inflation, etc is concerned) but this is a problem that I think is grounded in bad educational practice rather than in choice of major. I have to disagree with you on this. The truth is, oftentimes a degree really doesn't mean anything. I spent my Junior year of college working in my school's Writing Center, which was mostly for students to come get help with their papers for classes. A lot of times the papers were good and students just wanted an outside opinion, but just as often the papers were complete garbage. And I don't just mean Freshman STEM majors who were forced to take Comp 101 just bullshitting papers, I mean Senior English Lit students who still didn't even know how to cite sources correctly. Thesis statements that were things like 'This author helped change the way we view society'. A degree doesn't always mean "I have a good deal of knowledge and practical skills in this field", it can often be "I spent 5 1/2 years in college and they finally let me graduate". Really what most degrees show is that you are someone who is 1.) At least reasonably intelligent 2.) Dedicated enough to study something for multiple years by choice 3.) The kind of person who can be committed and work towards their future. I will agree that much of these problems are rooted in the college system and not a byproduct of specific majors though.
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Dec 3, 2015 00:45
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Avalanche posted:What BAs/BSs nowadays besides engineering (except for civil and chemical), accounting, and degree+military give you a golden ticket to a sweet sweet middle class job all on their own? i already paid for college why should I have to bother sitting through interviews instead of everyone giving me free money Tequila Sunrise posted:Really what most degrees show is that you are someone who is 1.) At least reasonably intelligent 2.) Dedicated enough to study something for multiple years by choice 3.) The kind of person who can be committed and work towards their future. Over a third of the country has at least a BA at this point so points 2 and 3 are probably a bit more fairly interpreted 'probably started at least roughly middle-class-ish' and 'did not have any life-ruining drug addictions at 18'. You could've graduated from most state-university humanities programs I've seen never having written anything more complex than five-paragraph format essays and never having read anything more involved than Catcher in the Rye (Cliffs Notes acceptable). I feel like 'a BA in philosophy proves you're a deep critical thinker' is operating on about the level of 'if you get an MBA you will have to work in a cubicle 70 hours a week for the rest of your life'. This is what happens to some people, where their route in life took them to an exceptional noteworthy place, but even if that's what you're after it has just about fuckall to do with your choice in major. What these other concentrations - nursing, business, engineering, underwater basketweaving - distinguish themselves by is a core set of definable, standard competencies vetted to a basic standard of QC, rather than handwavy hot air about just being a better thinker, y'know, at thinky stuff. A lot of it's pretty basic and nothing a sufficiently motivated person with a library card couldn't have figured out in a lot less than four years, but if you can't read a chart you don't get to be a nurse, if you've got a degree in engineering folks know you can probably figure out how to calculate a radius (unless you're that other, lovely kind of engineer); a philosophy or lit degree reassures people you're probably literate. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 10:17 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 09:34
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Tequila Sunrise posted:I have to disagree with you on this. The truth is, oftentimes a degree really doesn't mean anything. I spent my Junior year of college working in my school's Writing Center, which was mostly for students to come get help with their papers for classes. A lot of times the papers were good and students just wanted an outside opinion, but just as often the papers were complete garbage. And I don't just mean Freshman STEM majors who were forced to take Comp 101 just bullshitting papers, I mean Senior English Lit students who still didn't even know how to cite sources correctly. Thesis statements that were things like 'This author helped change the way we view society'. I do agree with you that that's the case in practice, i.e. that graduation requirements now reflect more (or less, depending on how you look at it) than competence in the field of study. I also used to work with the writing centre at my university and can't even count the number of first-year (or second- or third-year) philosophy papers I saw that began with "Since the dawn of time, man has..." and then meandered around for five or so pages. I think it is worth noting, though, that although this is more common in liberal arts, STEM students aren't immune. But I do think it's more prevalent in the liberal arts because I think we've actually gotten pretty bad at teaching the liberal arts as it moves further and further away from being a core part of university curricula (for a whole raft of reasons, most of which are pretty unfortunate). The idea of defined goals for successful completion used to be fundamental to liberal arts education, and one SHOULD in fact be able to look at a CV, see a philosophy degree on there, and be confident that the person in question can deliver a good argument. But yes, I agree that this isn't currently the case. What does frustrate me is seeing how many folks hold that up as an example of the inherent worthlessness of the discipline, rather than recognizing that it's that very attitude that actually contributes to standards slipping because liberal arts education is in general devalued within the academic system. Basically the university education system in North America is in crisis and that's strongly felt in the liberal arts, is what I'm saying. A Wizard of Goatse posted:I feel like 'a BA in philosophy proves you're a deep critical thinker' is operating on about the level of 'if you get an MBA you will have to work in a cubicle 70 hours a week for the rest of your life'. This is what happens to some people, where their route in life took them to an exceptional noteworthy place, but even if that's what you're after it has just about fuckall to do with your choice in major. What these other concentrations - nursing, business, engineering, underwater basketweaving - distinguish themselves by is a core set of definable, standard competencies vetted to a basic standard of QC, rather than handwavy hot air about just being a better thinker, y'know, at thinky stuff. I don't know in what field you currently work but I can tell you in medicine it's scary how many people actually can't critically think through a problem. That's not handwavy "thinky stuff." Learning how to tease out the important parts of a problem and clearly and logically work through a solution from the beginning to the end, then clearly communicate that to someone else is a teachable skill with defined methods and measurable results. The "well you could just read some books" argument is also really weird to me. Anyone could, in theory, teach themselves anything from books. Teaching philosophy isn't actually about reading the books, it's about having people who are smart and know what they're talking about teach you how to tease out the ideas within those books. To expand on your nursing example, you can quite easily learn to read a medical chart online. What you can't learn online is how to recognize when a patient isn't well and a change needs to be made to their plan of care. You have to see a lot of patients for that and be shown by a preceptor how to recognize the signs that it's time to call the doctor in. Similarly, you can read any book you care to, but learning how to integrate its ideas into a system of thought, work with them, and communicate them well is something that needs to be taught for most people. Dogfish fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 14:49
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Dogfish posted:I don't know in what field you currently work but I can tell you in medicine it's scary how many people actually can't critically think through a problem. That's not handwavy "thinky stuff." It's not that shocking to me. Most doctors get biology degrees in undergrad and the scientific theory in biology isn't very systematic and isn't that great, so they probably don't get that much practice in reasoning in school. I'm not the first person in this thread to talk about this, but it isn't like a philosophy or other liberal arts degree is the only way to become proficient in reasoning. Getting a liberal arts degree also isn't a guarantee that you'll learn how to systematically think through things after your four years are up, so it is difficult to recommend these degrees on the basis of "picking up useful skills for future careers."
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Dec 7, 2015 16:37
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silence_kit posted:I'm not the first person in this thread to talk about this, but it isn't like a philosophy or other liberal arts degree is the only way to become proficient in reasoning. Getting a liberal arts degree also isn't a guarantee that you'll learn how to systematically think through things after your four years are up, so it is difficult to recommend these degrees on the basis of "picking up useful skills for future careers." This is another argument that I find consistently puzzling. Of course not all philosophy graduates will be good at what they studied. Neither will all graduates from any other field. Of course formal university education in one discipline is not the only way to acquire a certain set of skills. That's true for all fields of study. Literally the only point I have made in this thread is that it's possible to learn some really useful stuff from philosophy education, which will serve you well in the future, in much the same way that it's possible to learn really useful stuff which will serve you well in the future from other fields of study. If you want to talk about how tertiary education in general has some real quality issues to address in all aspects of its structure, I'm happy to have that conversation, because it's true. But the point I'm specifically making is that the claim that liberal arts in general, and philosophy in particular, are less useful and teach fewer important skills than STEM education, doesn't stand up to scrutiny. All philosophy education doesn't have to be excellent and all philosophy graduates don't have to be productive and well-trained for that to be correct.
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Dec 12, 2015 18:53
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Dogfish posted:Literally the only point I have made in this thread is that it's possible to learn some really useful stuff from philosophy education, which will serve you well in the future, in much the same way that it's possible to learn really useful stuff which will serve you well in the future from other fields of study. Uh, that's not really a strong endorsement of a philosophy education as a useful education. Dogfish posted:But the point I'm specifically making is that the claim that liberal arts in general, and philosophy in particular, are less useful and teach fewer important skills than STEM education, doesn't stand up to scrutiny. You just ceded the point that liberal arts educations aren't the only way to learn "critical thinking" (a foofy term for the ability to reason). If they don't have that, what kind of argument can you make for the utility of a liberal arts education? You aren't even putting your money where your mouth is. You yourself aren't even trying to spin a philosophy degree itself into a career--instead, you are getting a useful education and are attending medical school and are training to be a doctor.
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Dec 12, 2015 21:19
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Here's a philosophy class free will isnt a thing you can't meaningfully interact with reality you can only passively observe your pointless existence
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Dec 13, 2015 05:32
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silence_kit posted:Uh, that's not really a strong endorsement of a philosophy education as a useful education. i kinda feel like the certified specialist in the field that's all about carefully thinking through your premises and arguing them in a cogent and persuasive manner being unable to describe the unique practical values of his field in a way that sounds like it means anything even to other people with the same background is way, way more damning than anything I was planning to say about philo/lit degrees
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Dec 13, 2015 05:39
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I'm a finance/econ grad and working in a tech company now. But, I'm taking classes right now and working my way to get a masters in philosophy. It's awesome - I have a solid foundation making good money, so I have absolutely no stress and pressure of finding a job, or making this a career. I just happen to really, really love the subject, but since I don't come from an aristocratic background, nor do I have any real inclination to be a professor and make pretty terrible money in a hyper competitive word, I'm just taking my time and enjoying the ride. I don't know if that helps you OP, but philosophy is pure sacrifice. And, you have to be absolutely brilliant at it to really make a living doing philosophy as a full time thing. If you're not, you'll end up with "critical thinking" jobs. That seems to be something I've noticed a lot of the people I meet say - that philosophy is a great way to "critically think". I disagree with that - pursuing a philosophy degree will allow you to think critically in philosophy. You'll still have a lot of catch up to do if you switch fields, which may or may not be lovely after those student loans kick in and you can barely afford it. If you can get into Harvard? Cambridge? Oxford? Stanford? It's worth it. You'll make it through sheer connection alone. If not, be prepared to live a very uncertain life.
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Dec 15, 2015 22:42
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A grade school friend got a philosophy bachelors from the state university, got into an Ivy League law school, and now works in some fancy law firm. She is the 1%.
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Dec 16, 2015 00:49
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Well for me it was an enlightening further education in how even being intelligent doesn't seem to stop people from being monumentally retarded. Most subjects you can study rarely have professors who are obviously wrong, whereas in Philosophy, you can sit and be taught something that is clearly wrong by somebody who has already invested many years of their life into some idiotic cul-de-sac. If you also study morality it throws into sharp relief some pretty weird things people believe that you might never expect from the people who sit around you, as morality isn't a particularly normal topic of conversation. Directly, at least. Academic Philosophy itself is like a killing field where some very smart people go to do die. Moralising objectivists, quasi-autists building a language of logic, and people who devote hundreds/thousands of hours attempting to solve metaphysical issues that in themselves cannot possibly be answered to a satisfactory extent. Nobody I know who was "normal" chose to continue into Academic philosophy. The field has become, unlike how it may appear from the outside, much more akin to a science than a liberal art. Nowadays you will never get an author writing a wide ranging treatise and taken seriously. Instead you find your niche and you inhabit it. Only very few esteemed philosophers potter around in multiple areas. Just as no scientist today will be a Newton or any other pre 20th century fop who dabbled in a little of everything. In an attempt to make rigorous the entire field, everything has become compartmentalised and formalised. That includes turning all your fancy word play into formulae or long very detailed tracts, because writing well is seen as obfuscation or attempting to charm a reader beyond the merits of your own logic. I think you could probably do just fine getting your Philosophy from books, it's more of a question of: what drives you to do that? and what do you get from it other than existential satisfaction? I at least got a degree out of it. If you want to learn though, most of the key Philosophy is already written. There's only a handful of things written in the last 50 years that really have any lasting merit, unless you are very interested in a particular topic.
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Dec 16, 2015 13:34
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Dogfish posted:This is another argument that I find consistently puzzling. Of course not all philosophy graduates will be good at what they studied. Neither will all graduates from any other field. Of course formal university education in one discipline is not the only way to acquire a certain set of skills. That's true for all fields of study. Literally the only point I have made in this thread is that it's possible to learn some really useful stuff from philosophy education, which will serve you well in the future, in much the same way that it's possible to learn really useful stuff which will serve you well in the future from other fields of study. Of course it stands up to scrutiny, you just have to look at average pay and job availability for one second to discover that. Your points completely ignore that while all majors give you something, some prepare you for the job market much better than others. And when college costs are through the roof that's something that really matters for most people, who can't afford to spend 50k on a major that leads to high unemployment and low pay. Where this really becomes obvious is on the PhD level. Good lord does it suck there for LA (except math/stats) people there- I think English phd's have about 1-2 openings per year depending on what period they studied. And the average amount of time spent on the PhD was something like 7-8 years compared to 5.5 for stem. I can't even imagine spending that much time knowing the chances of getting a job were about the same as a high school basketball player getting into the NBA.
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Dec 16, 2015 16:11
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