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I'm drawing a complete blank on how Kal can be framed as a rapist in Man of Steel. The other stuff is just LeJackal's weird gimmick, but he, what, kisses Lois once? Are we assuming that some stuff went down with Zod in outer space that we aren't shown in the actual movie?Gyges posted:I think it's the fact that Clark is also a persona adopted by the alien Kal El that bugs me in the Donner films. It's where Bill gets the idea for his monologue about Superman in Kill Bill. Yeah, stuff like him feinting in front of the mugger in Superman: the Movie is gross. You claim to be in love with this woman, dipshit, try showing her who you really are. Man of Steel, of course, nails this by having Lois get to know Clark Kent, working class superhero, first. edit: Agreed, Megaman's Jockstrap
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Nov 29, 2016 01:15
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MacheteZombie posted:eh, I thought the theater cut of Skawd was alright. Certainly not amazing. I just want to see the ending of BvS bleed into Skawd's opening for some reason. Unlike BvS though, which was gorgeous and had good performances but was muddied by editing, I dont think SS can be saved by a director's cut. It wasn't that the parts were good but they weren't put together well; it was that the parts were bad.
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Nov 29, 2016 01:29
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Sir Kodiak posted:I'm drawing a complete blank on how Kal can be framed as a rapist in Man of Steel. The other stuff is just LeJackal's weird gimmick, but he, what, kisses Lois once? Are we assuming that some stuff went down with Zod in outer space that we aren't shown in the actual movie?
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Nov 29, 2016 02:06
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Halloween Jack posted:Maybe he's thinking of Superman Returns, where Superman is a repulsive dork who carried on the Clark Kent masquerade with Lois long enough to get her pregnant, then ditch town, then return and carry on the ruse. She knew he was Superman when he boned her. Which makes no sense since he became human in order to gently caress her without shattering her pelvis, so why does the kid have super powers? Superman Returns: Fantastic cast (except Lois, who was "okay') and a really stupid plot.
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Nov 29, 2016 02:17
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Sir Kodiak posted:I'm drawing a complete blank on how Kal can be framed as a rapist in Man of Steel. The other stuff is just LeJackal's weird gimmick, but he, what, kisses Lois once? Are we assuming that some stuff went down with Zod in outer space that we aren't shown in the actual movie? Its not a gimmick, he really is by any human standards of morality a monster made flesh, a walking, flying avatar of every petty human cruelty masked behind a razor thin veneer of acceptability. As for the rapist part, a quick stroll through the relevant Federal guidelines; 10 U.S. Code § 920 - Art. 120. Rape and sexual assault generally as well as passing familiarity with case law concerning the nature of consent (as the acts in question regarding the assault are pretty blatant on screen, then continued with implicit sexual contact in BvS) should give you some pause. Every rape isn't done in a dark alley by some stranger holding a knife to the throat, you know. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 29, 2016 02:41
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i like the part where you imply the power imbalance between kal-el and his concubines negates their consent
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Nov 29, 2016 03:34
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LeJackal posted:Its not a gimmick, he really is by any human standards of morality a monster made flesh, a walking, flying avatar of every petty human cruelty masked behind a razor thin veneer of acceptability. You should get a CAT scan
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Nov 29, 2016 03:50
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Cavill's abs aren't legally a drug, my friend, but I can appreciate how one would make that mistake.
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Nov 29, 2016 03:51
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My kid watches Teen Titans in the morning before school. This morning I was sitting there sipping coffee with him. The Teen Titans were in the basement of their HQ, there were storage boxes strewn about with amusing words on them. One of them was labeled "Dawn of Justice." The one under it was labelled, "Breakfast of Justice." Under that was, "Bedtime of Justice."
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Nov 29, 2016 04:08
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ungulateman posted:i like the part where you imply the power imbalance between kal-el and his concubines negates their consent Like, that's definitely not what's happening in BvS, but it's also definitely a thing.
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Nov 29, 2016 06:06
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Yeah, which is why Kal-El goes to pains to separate the part of him that embodies that power imbalance from the part of him that is in a functioning relationship It's a nice reversal from the typical angle of 'lois lane loves superman, then falls in love with clark kent' by having her know his human side better than his alien one
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Nov 29, 2016 07:05
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The power imbalance of one of the partners being really strong isn't the sort of power imbalance that negates consent. Lois and Clark are obviously an extreme example, but a guy doesn't need to be Superman to be capable of physically overwhelming a woman he's in a relationship with.
Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Nov 29, 2016 |
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Nov 29, 2016 08:50
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That's very true, there's a small nugget of truth to what LeJackal is saying. He's just taking it a bit far by saying it applies in this case. Very keen to see Luthor bring this up in the next film, however.
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Nov 29, 2016 10:31
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well why not posted:
Lol
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Nov 29, 2016 11:29
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So what exactly are we to assume from Batmans little speech at the end of the movie? Does it mean he's turned into Comic Batman that never kills no matter what? Or that he'll still be a brutal fascist that shoots crooks, only now he has some sort of faith in humanity? His appearance in SS hints towards the former I guess, as does him sparing Luthor, but I have to admit I will be dissapointed if Bats kills more thugs in the sequel. Also, the new batsuit has a striking resemblence to Nightowl from the watchmen movie. Is Snyder making a point here? Surely can't be a coincidence?
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Nov 29, 2016 14:48
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McCloud posted:So what exactly are we to assume from Batmans little speech at the end of the movie? Does it mean he's turned into Comic Batman that never kills no matter what? Or that he'll still be a brutal fascist that shoots crooks, only now he has some sort of faith in humanity? His appearance in SS hints towards the former I guess, as does him sparing Luthor, but I have to admit I will be dissapointed if Bats kills more thugs in the sequel. Bare minimum, he's now willing to work with superhumans instead of being a villain who hunts them. The problem with looking to a sequel for answers is that it's more interesting to look at the conclusions you come to in the film. I'd argue that we're presented with a lovely Batman who becomes increasingly callous towards the lives of others until he resolves himself to outright murder. Then he realizes that he has literally become what he hates the most and takes a step back at the last second. I doubt he'll stop killing if he feels it necessary- film Batmans always kill unless they're Adam West. I doubt he'll do so as casually as he does in BvS. In the sequels, they may even play up the shady side of Batman, since that's been established as a theme (and it a pretty prominent one in the comics and Nolan's trilogy). He'll be increasingly fighting superhuman/otherworldly threats, though.
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Nov 29, 2016 15:00
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What's most dickish about this is that Superman reversed time so that the initial fight between the diner rear end in a top hat never happened. So Clark picks a fight with a guy who had never met him in this timeline.
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Nov 29, 2016 15:59
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Detective No. 27 posted:What's most dickish about this is that Superman reversed time so that the initial fight between the diner rear end in a top hat never happened. So Clark picks a fight with a guy who had never met him in this timeline. Well, in the Donner cut. In the regular Lester cut he "deserves" it. Frankly he gets off easy, after what Supes does to Zod & Co. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Nov 29, 2016 |
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Nov 29, 2016 16:52
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Well, in the Donner cut. In the regular Lester cut he deserves it. Frankly he gets off easy, after what Supes does to Zod & Co. Tell that to Zod's snapped neck...
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Nov 29, 2016 16:55
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Nov 29, 2016 16:57
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Well, in the Donner cut. In the regular Lester cut he "deserves" it. Frankly he gets off easy, after what Supes does to Zod & Co. I figured that might be the case, since I haven't seen the Lester cut since I was a child and the Donner Cut superceded it for me as the definitive. Still, he's a dick.
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Nov 29, 2016 16:59
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McCloud posted:So what exactly are we to assume from Batmans little speech at the end of the movie? Does it mean he's turned into Comic Batman that never kills no matter what? Or that he'll still be a brutal fascist that shoots crooks, only now he has some sort of faith in humanity? His appearance in SS hints towards the former I guess, as does him sparing Luthor, but I have to admit I will be dissapointed if Bats kills more thugs in the sequel. His appearance in Suicide Squad is far more disturbing than any scene where he kills some mercenary scumbag. It shows that he and Waller have a lot in common--using their resources to assemble private armies to realize their visions. Hodgepodge posted:I doubt he'll stop killing if he feels it necessary- film Batmans always kill unless they're Adam West. I doubt he'll do so as casually as he does in BvS. Anyway, in this film, it's Superman who struggles to get rid of a bomb. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Nov 29, 2016 |
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Nov 29, 2016 17:06
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:But nobody made Clark pretend to be a clownish geek! He is just a genuine weirdo. This is always something that's kept me at a distance from various Superman works, this idea that he constructs what's often a downright farcical persona in order to somehow stay inconspicuous. As a little kid who was desperate to be popular, it was especially difficult to relate to this guy who could be the coolest, most beloved person around, but has some obtuse, vaguely alluded to reasons for play-acting as a garish poindexter. Look at something like Birthright, where he's presented initially as this endearingly do-gooder international adventure journalist, before deciding that he needs to start looking like someone put an ape in an ill-fitting suit and glasses as a joke Consequently, Cavill's Superman has been one of the easiest versions for me to like. There's no sense of a weird-rear end front with him: he actually is this much of a dweeb, all the time, and it's the exact same impulses and personality quirks that make him both an effective, kind-hearted hero and the easiest person in the world to make fun of. And they pulled it off without compromising his hotness as Clark, which, man, that's a fuckin' spotty track record
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Nov 29, 2016 17:39
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can someone edit it so Bruce's files / dossier of metahumans is replaced with like, documentary footage of Blackwater / XE thugs?
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Nov 29, 2016 17:43
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Collateral Murder would be a solid replacement imo
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Nov 29, 2016 17:53
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Jenny Angel posted:Collateral Murder would be a solid replacement imo They really nailed the title on that one huh
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Nov 29, 2016 17:54
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Jenny Angel posted:This is always something that's kept me at a distance from various Superman works, this idea that he constructs what's often a downright farcical persona in order to somehow stay inconspicuous. As a little kid who was desperate to be popular, it was especially difficult to relate to this guy who could be the coolest, most beloved person around, but has some obtuse, vaguely alluded to reasons for play-acting as a garish poindexter. Look at something like Birthright, where he's presented initially as this endearingly do-gooder international adventure journalist, before deciding that he needs to start looking like someone put an ape in an ill-fitting suit and glasses as a joke Uh, most modern interpretations of the character since the mid 80s have him act like a Kansas farm boy who is living life in the big city, has a good heart, and is good at his job... just not as good as Lois. He isn't a dork so much as just a small town guy making a living, with Superman being an extension of that only on a grander and slightly more exaggerated scale rather than have Clark switch from "Miniscule Human" to "Virtuous God". Making Superman the mask for Clark Kent was probably the best change the character ever received.
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Nov 29, 2016 18:17
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TBF most people don't read Superman comics, on account of a lot of them being pretty bad. It's really telling that the best-received Superman comics of the last 20 years are: 1) An updated retelling of the beginning of his career 2) An Elsewords Silver-Age lovefest of the end of his career 3) An Elsewords arc of his entire career (Red Son) His day-to-day stuff is dreadful. Stuff like Grant Morrison's return to his harder left, more progressive, more experimental days was met with mixed reviews. The current Superman is doing well - or was a couple months ago - but they've given him a son and made the Wise Daddy Superman narrative explicit. I've been trying to think of a way to pitch Donner's Superman as centrist liberalism and Cavill's as a true left progressive but there's mixed stuff in each, most likely due to studio influence & blockbuster realities. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Nov 29, 2016 |
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Nov 29, 2016 18:34
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:His day-to-day stuff is dreadful. Stuff like Grant Morrison's return to his harder left, more progressive, more experimental days was met with mixed reviews. That's because he didn't do that at all, and barely gave it lip service. OG Superman tore apart government housing so that the Government would rebuild them up to code, and didn't give a poo poo what the government thought about his actions. That Superman was just kind of angsty and then he got his costume and started boning Wonder Woman and then he died.
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Nov 29, 2016 19:21
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Burkion posted:That's because he didn't do that at all, and barely gave it lip service. Grant Morrison's Superman literally does that, IIRC. And laughs at the government. And terrorizes a businessman. Having said that, yes, you are right - it does largely discard that aspect of the character after a half-dozen issues, in return for yet another Morrison time-fuckery plot. But I recall people's reactions to a more progressive Superman being one of confusion and slight bemusement, not a "Finally! Superman goes back to his roots!" (can you tell that was my reaction?)
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Nov 29, 2016 19:24
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Hat Thoughts posted:They really nailed the title on that one huh Similarly, I really appreciate that Ed Snowden had the foresight to choose a screenname as cool and menacing as Citizenfour. Contrast with Chelsea Manning - I feel like Laura Poitras would've had to dig a little deeper for a title than Bradass87 if she'd made a documentary about Manning's leaks instead
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Nov 29, 2016 19:25
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:His day-to-day stuff is dreadful. Stuff like Grant Morrison's return to his harder left, more progressive, more experimental days was met with mixed reviews. This has nothing to do with your overall point but I just wanted to gush about one of my favorite issues of a comic ever which came from this run. It's the one where it follows an alt-Earth black Superman (who is also president on his Earth) who goes up against this evil robot Superman who has been traveling between dimensions killing each Superman he encounters. So you think it's going to be about this Superman getting killed and then showing up to fight our Superman. But then, no, President Superman just defeats him and the issue is over. It rules.
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Nov 29, 2016 20:21
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Guy A. Person posted:This has nothing to do with your overall point but I just wanted to gush about one of my favorite issues of a comic ever which came from this run. The Evil Robot Superman is actually a product of corporate branding, IIRC. It's a little on the nose but hey...I liked it too.
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Nov 29, 2016 20:27
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Guy A. Person posted:This has nothing to do with your overall point but I just wanted to gush about one of my favorite issues of a comic ever which came from this run. A little more gush: I was gift shopping for my nephew a few weeks ago and saw a President Superman action figure, I thought that was awesome. It was even one of those big deluxe ones, which now that I think about it are probably aimed at manchildren collectors, but it was still getting exposure in the toy section of Target, good on 'em anyway.
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Nov 29, 2016 20:40
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McCloud posted:Also, the new batsuit has a striking resemblence to Nightowl from the watchmen movie. Is Snyder making a point here? Surely can't be a coincidence? Between Snyder directing Watchmen, Dr. Manhattan's involvement in DC Rebirth, Geoff Johns climbing WB's ladder, and Ed Boon teasing Watchmen in Injustice 2, I worry that their crossover is not an "if" but a "when."
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Nov 30, 2016 20:20
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McCloud posted:Also, the new batsuit has a striking resemblence to Nightowl from the watchmen movie. Is Snyder making a point here? Surely can't be a coincidence? Seen as Nite Owl is almost literally an impotent parody of Batman....
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Nov 30, 2016 20:40
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Guy A. Person posted:This has nothing to do with your overall point but I just wanted to gush about one of my favorite issues of a comic ever which came from this run. Morrison thought he could take Superman back to his left populist depression era roots, but also thought Obama as Superman made sense. No surprise that the former didn't work, in that context. I like Morrison but his radicalism has always been an identitarian, liberal radicalism - ahead of the curve on sex and gender issues, drugs, etc but lacking a class politics that includes poors who aren't queer or self identifying freaks. He thinks the answer is more niceness and tolerance and respect. That's not in line with the anger and class antagonism of that early character and they can't be easily reconciled.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:37
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And to be fair, Superman hasn't been tied with anger for a long rear end time. Basically since they started moving him from his roots. I can see why it's so easy to miss, unlike with Spider-Man who, to this day, is a ball of frustration and anger and teen angst personified. Every now and again the popular image of him as comic relief quip boy is what reigns, but that Ditko anger remains beneath the surface. Man I'd love to of seen Steve Ditko do Superman.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:43
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I'm afraid that would just be a super-powered Mr. A, albeit blessed with Ditko's psychedelic visuals. And Lex Luthor would be transformed into Ellsworth Toohey.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:51
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DeimosRising posted:Morrison thought he could take Superman back to his left populist depression era roots, but also thought Obama as Superman made sense. No surprise that the former didn't work, in that context. I like Morrison but his radicalism has always been an identitarian, liberal radicalism - ahead of the curve on sex and gender issues, drugs, etc but lacking a class politics that includes poors who aren't queer or self identifying freaks. He thinks the answer is more niceness and tolerance and respect. That's not in line with the anger and class antagonism of that early character and they can't be easily reconciled. This is a really good point and post and really gets to why Morrison's take didn't work. Well, that and the actually-not-very-interesting time fuckery. Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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Nov 30, 2016 21:59
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