Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
JerryLee
Feb 4, 2005

THE RESERVED LIST! THE RESERVED LIST! I CANNOT SHUT UP ABOUT THE RESERVED LIST!
My big question is, how cryptic is reality itself?

Like, that has to be established in order for us to know what we're dealing with here.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Barry Shitpeas
Dec 17, 2003

there is no need
to be upset

Winner POTM July 2013
I don't think they would print a new mana symbol without reminder text

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

If the diamond symbol means "Spend only colorless mana on this" then I can believe that spoiler. It would make sense as an Eldrazi mechanic and would work with the 9 colorless lands in BFZ and the random one thrown in each other set in standard.

The basic is presumably there for limited purposes, and I guess colorless EDH. Also you can find it off Rampant Growth style effects I guess.

Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Nov 18, 2015

Angry Grimace
Jul 29, 2010

ACTUALLY IT IS VERY GOOD THAT THE SHOW IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T REALIZE WHY THAT'S GOOD IS AN IDIOT. JUST ENJOY THE BAD SHOW INSTEAD OF THINKING.
It's perfectly possible they decided the Barry's Land issue (increasing Domain count) was less mechanically and functionally interesting than making Colorless mana itself matter plus giving EDH colorless decks a basic.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received
Hard-countering with zero mana investment is something they just don't do, except Lullmage Mentor which has a different ridiculous condition. Hell, since Lullmage Mentor they've not printed a creature with repeatable counterspelling. Before that were Sensei Hisoka (needs mana), Disruptive Pitmage (has to tap), and Patron Wizard (has to tap, mistake).

And its keyword is menace.

black potus
Jul 13, 2006

Angry Grimace posted:

It's perfectly possible they decided the Barry's Land issue (increasing Domain count) was less mechanically and functionally interesting than making Colorless mana itself matter plus giving EDH colorless decks a basic.

this has no type, there are still only 5 types. the thing on the type line is the type not the name

Some Numbers
Sep 28, 2006

"LET'S GET DOWN TO WORK!!"

Angry Grimace posted:

Doesn't actually seem like it.

From the Comprehensive Rules (Battle for Zendikar (September 26, 2015))


The issue is that it just straight up doesn't solve the Barry's Land problem by not affecting Domain or anything.

Wouldn't that mean that without a basic land type, it won't have an intrinsic ability to tap for mana?

black potus
Jul 13, 2006
it means they just need to put a rule in that a basic land w/o a basic land subtype taps for 1 or w/e instead of a color of mana

black potus
Jul 13, 2006
i'm v skeptical about these spoilers at the moment but not because they introduce some unsolvable rules issue

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received

Some Numbers posted:

Wouldn't that mean that without a basic land type, it won't have an intrinsic ability to tap for mana?

...Hey.

You're right.

I presume the diamond means it has "T: add ♦ to your mana pool" but there's nothing giving it that. And they have "full-art land with text box" templating available.

Everything about this is so arbitrary and I doubt they'd be introducing this in a small set.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:

Hard-countering with zero mana investment is something they just don't do, except Lullmage Mentor which has a different ridiculous condition. Hell, since Lullmage Mentor they've not printed a creature with repeatable counterspelling. Before that were Sensei Hisoka (needs mana), Disruptive Pitmage (has to tap), and Patron Wizard (has to tap, mistake).
None of those cards are the flagship 10 mana card of a set

suicidesteve
Jan 4, 2006

"Life is a maze. This is one of its dead ends.


Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:

Hard-countering with zero mana investment is something they just don't do, except Lullmage Mentor which has a different ridiculous condition. Hell, since Lullmage Mentor they've not printed a creature with repeatable counterspelling. Before that were Sensei Hisoka (needs mana), Disruptive Pitmage (has to tap), and Patron Wizard (has to tap, mistake).

And its keyword is menace.

This also costs 10 mana, is mythic, and can't necessarily counter anything.

Terrible Horse
Apr 27, 2004
:I

Irony Be My Shield posted:

If the diamond symbol means "Spend only colorless mana on this" then I can believe that spoiler. It would make sense as an Eldrazi mechanic and would work with the 9 colorless lands in BFZ and the random one thrown in each other set in standard.

That I could buy. I originally read it as "mana from Wastes" which would almost certainly mean it was fake

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received

Irony Be My Shield posted:

None of those cards are the flagship 10 mana card of a set

Here's our flagship card: Insufferable piece of poo poo w/ Menace!!!

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:

...Hey.

You're right.

I presume the diamond means it has "T: add ♦ to your mana pool" but there's nothing giving it that. And they have "full-art land with text box" templating available.

Everything about this is so arbitrary and I doubt they'd be introducing this in a small set.

as said(and as discussed in irc) if the diamond symbol means "colorless mana only" and if they add a rule saying basic lands with no types tap for colorless then it works in the rules

Basically:

black potus posted:

i'm v skeptical about these spoilers at the moment but not because they introduce some unsolvable rules issue

LifeLynx
Feb 27, 2001

Dang so this is like looking over his shoulder in real-time
Grimey Drawer

Barry Shitpeas posted:

I don't think they would print a new mana symbol without reminder text

They sometimes don't put reminder text on mythics.

MiddleEastBeast
Jan 19, 2003

Forum Bully

Irony Be My Shield posted:

If the diamond symbol means "Spend only colorless mana on this" then I can believe that spoiler. It would make sense as an Eldrazi mechanic and would work with the 9 colorless lands in BFZ and the random one thrown in each other set in standard.

I'd imagine if that were the case, they'd have reminder text on Kozilek saying that, somewhat similar to how phyrexian mana cards had reminder text, though it's not a perfect analog. Wizards loves extreme hand holding.

edit:

BJPaskoff posted:

They sometimes don't put reminder text on mythics.
oh

Sigma-X
Jun 17, 2005
That's a neat Kozilek art.

So looking at Kozilek's cost and the Waste, the Waste is producing a special Kozilek mana. This flies in the face of it being basic, because it's literally just a 6th color at that point.

On the other hand it does seem pretty much the way they've been doing the return to zendikar thus far - a super boring revamp of eldrazi is very fitting.

Sigma-X fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Nov 18, 2015

Angry Grimace
Jul 29, 2010

ACTUALLY IT IS VERY GOOD THAT THE SHOW IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T REALIZE WHY THAT'S GOOD IS AN IDIOT. JUST ENJOY THE BAD SHOW INSTEAD OF THINKING.
The reason this isn't getting dismissed out of hand is because its not easy for fakers to source high-quality fake art and this one isn't even blurry, from a weird angle or anything. The cards also aren't obviously under or overpowered either.

Sigma-X posted:

That's a neat Kozilek art.

So looking at Kozilek's cost and the Waste, the Waste is producing a special Kozilek mana. This flies in the face of it being basic, because it's literally just a 6th color at that point.

I think the idea would be that it has to be colorless specifically, e.g. turning colorless into a type of color requirement. Its actually less weird than it sounds given how Phyrexian mana worked - you technically could just write out "2 of this mus be paid with colorless" but the same thing could have existed on Phyrexian Mana cards through an ability word, but they didn't do that.

Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Nov 18, 2015

DAD LOST MY IPOD
Feb 3, 2012

Fats Dominar is on the case


Ok, if that's real it's totally sweet and on the level with double faced cards in terms of "weird poo poo you'd never expect them to do."

suicidesteve
Jan 4, 2006

"Life is a maze. This is one of its dead ends.


Sigma-X posted:

That's a neat Kozilek art.

So looking at Kozilek's cost and the Waste, the Waste is producing a special Kozilek mana. This flies in the face of it being basic, because it's literally just a 6th color at that point.

If it's real, it seems like it's colorless mana except it has to have been produced by a Wastes land.

Angry Grimace
Jul 29, 2010

ACTUALLY IT IS VERY GOOD THAT THE SHOW IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T REALIZE WHY THAT'S GOOD IS AN IDIOT. JUST ENJOY THE BAD SHOW INSTEAD OF THINKING.
Now we're getting weird

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received

Angry Grimace posted:

Now we're getting weird



Now that's how fakes normally look.

Terrible Horse
Apr 27, 2004
:I
The counter ability is powerful but fair, because its not X or less; its Counterbalance but without the possible breaking effect of Top/scry. You'd have to work pretty hard to get the exact cmc in hand at instant to counter "anything"

Fuzzy Mammal
Aug 15, 2001

Lipstick Apathy
More:


Efb

Angry Grimace
Jul 29, 2010

ACTUALLY IT IS VERY GOOD THAT THE SHOW IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T REALIZE WHY THAT'S GOOD IS AN IDIOT. JUST ENJOY THE BAD SHOW INSTEAD OF THINKING.
It's actually a pretty interesting design space if you think about it - the Diamond thing appears to be its own type of mana, so it probably only gets produced by specific non-basics or Wastes that don't produce anything else, meaning running it in your deck is actively a pain in the rear end (which encourages you to run way less duals)

The problem here is that these are all too good looking for me to believe they're fake. Historically spoiled cards with new art and no obvious fake poo poo (or blurry photos of Chinese cards) tend to be real.

Sigma-X
Jun 17, 2005

Angry Grimace posted:

The reason this isn't getting dismissed out of hand is because its not easy for fakers to source high-quality fake art and this one isn't even blurry, from a weird angle or anything. The cards also aren't obviously under or overpowered either.


I think the idea would be that it has to be colorless specifically, e.g. turning colorless into a type of color requirement. Its actually less weird than it sounds given how Phyrexian mana worked - you technically could just write out "2 of this mus be paid with colorless" but the same thing could have existed on Phyrexian Mana cards through an ability word, but they didn't do that.

Yeah I am coming around to the idea that this is just as loving lame enough to be real.

Phyrexian mana was cool but this seems way gimmicky. Phyrexian mana was both flavorful and powerful and I can't yet see how this is in any way providing a different power vector, only a flavor vector, and I'm not feeling the flavor yet.

If Eldrazi are turning basic lands into wastes throughout the gatekeeper block, like if that becomes a mechanic, that would be pretty sweet and actually make the flavor resonate really well.

I would actually love to see a series of cards like:

Kozilek's Defiler 2Z
When ~this ETB, target land you control and target land you don't control become Wastes (they are basic lands that read: tap to produce Z)
2/2

e: if <> mana or however we're going to write it is it's own type of mana, it's just snow mana again, just more parasitic. This seems more and more real by the moment.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received
The earliest we've gotten small set spoilers before was on Christmas. Kiora and Ugin were revealed this way, for example.

Would they really have final printed cards a month and a half before that?

is that good
Apr 14, 2012
When are spoilers actually meant to start?

Mischalaniouse
Nov 7, 2009

*ribbit*
This looks pretty goddamned awful; I sure hope its fake. It sure wouldn't convince me to come off of my hiatus from the game.

Terrible Horse
Apr 27, 2004
:I

Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:

The earliest we've gotten small set spoilers before was on Christmas. Kiora and Ugin were revealed this way, for example.

Would they really have final printed cards a month and a half before that?

Its pretty early but maybe with the middling reception of BFZ they leaked them early?

Fuzzy Mammal
Aug 15, 2001

Lipstick Apathy
Well it's clearly a leak and not a spoiler. The art is definitely 100% from the set I bet. The wastes structures showing up on the other card clinches it for me.

mcmagic
Jul 1, 2004

If you see this avatar while scrolling the succ zone, you have been visited by the mcmagic of shitty lib takes! Good luck and prosperity will come to you, but only if you reply "shut the fuck up mcmagic" to this post!
Twitter says it's a new symbol for colorless mana. Not a new mana type just has to be colorless. So it's 10 mana and 2 has to be colorless.

Elyv
Jun 14, 2013



Terrible Horse posted:

Its pretty early but maybe with the middling reception of BFZ they leaked them early?

If these are real I really doubt it's a deliberate leak

mcmagic posted:

Twitter says it's a new symbol for colorless mana. Not a new mana type just has to be colorless. So it's 10 mana and 2 has to be colorless.

unless it's an actual wizards employee twitter is speculating as much as the rest of us

Some Numbers
Sep 28, 2006

"LET'S GET DOWN TO WORK!!"
So the diamond is now colorless and the numbers in circles are "generic?"

Some Numbers
Sep 28, 2006

"LET'S GET DOWN TO WORK!!"
Does that mean that any land that produces colorless would be errata'd to use this diamond?

Ramos
Jul 3, 2012


We don't know that for sure yet.

Also, this seems like exactly the kind of mechanic Maro would talk about needing to be in the first set. Didn't he mention something having issues with squashing three sets into two for this?

Angry Grimace
Jul 29, 2010

ACTUALLY IT IS VERY GOOD THAT THE SHOW IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T REALIZE WHY THAT'S GOOD IS AN IDIOT. JUST ENJOY THE BAD SHOW INSTEAD OF THINKING.

mcmagic posted:

Twitter says it's a new symbol for colorless mana. Not a new mana type just has to be colorless. So it's 10 mana and 2 has to be colorless.

Doesn't seem like it since the other one specifically makes diamond mana.

Ramos posted:

We don't know that for sure yet.

Also, this seems like exactly the kind of mechanic Maro would talk about needing to be in the first set. Didn't he mention something having issues with squashing three sets into two for this?

The issue might be how much design space exists for a mana type that doesn't do anything other than act as a color restriction.

Sigma-X
Jun 17, 2005

Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:

The earliest we've gotten small set spoilers before was on Christmas. Kiora and Ugin were revealed this way, for example.

Would they really have final printed cards a month and a half before that?

I actually know a guy who knows a guy kind of deal but the manufacturer+distro is like 2 months prior to the launch even when padding, so having printed material this early seems unlikely except for the purposes of marketing. I'm not sure when this set is supposed to come out off the top of my head.

e: based off of my workings in the (video)games industry, a really great source for leaks is file distribution. The art could have been on an unsecured FTP or website somewhere and got sniped there, and then the fakers would have real art to work with.

When I say unsecured, I don't mean like completely loving blind, I mean something like there's a folder in the FTP structure that people are only supposed to have write access to (a drop box) but someone got read access to it. I've seen this happen before IRL.

Sigma-X fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Nov 18, 2015

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

mcmagic
Jul 1, 2004

If you see this avatar while scrolling the succ zone, you have been visited by the mcmagic of shitty lib takes! Good luck and prosperity will come to you, but only if you reply "shut the fuck up mcmagic" to this post!

Angry Grimace posted:

Doesn't seem like it since the other one specifically makes diamond mana.

Diamond might just mean colorless.

  • Locked thread