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Hellsau posted:There's no sense in banning Copter, Emrakul and fuckin Reflector Mage while letting Better Splinter Twin run around standard. It's NOT a better Twin.
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Apr 17, 2017 16:44
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Sampatrick posted:If those decks were good, they wouldn't be posted online by a pro player. I still will never forget the episode of Top Level podcast, pre-pro tour, where Chapin and Flores spent the entire time talking about Ojutai Exemplars. For 2 reasons: 1) that Constructed Resources couldn't be interesting or useful even NOT talking about brewing and interesting cards and Top Level could with an ultimately unplayable card; and 2) how clearly it was filling air time not talking about what these guys were actually doing with competitive decks off-mic; and 2a) I really wanted Exemplars to be good and made an UW deck built around it that ultimately wasn't very good but when it worked it was fun AF. So yeah, if you can get paid crafting a somewhat decent looking deck and discussing it, you certainly aren't going to reveal your actual good poo poo you have been crafting and testing.
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Apr 17, 2017 16:46
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Chill la Chill posted:Hey remember when they tried including cheevo cards with prerelease packs? What else do you want? funny that you mention that  if you finish all these you're supposed to be able to cash this in for a ~~full art foil basic~~
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Apr 17, 2017 16:47
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Chill la Chill posted:Hey remember when they tried including cheevo cards with prerelease packs? What else do you want? As a youthful consumer let me tell you that there's nothing I love more than old-man cargo-cult bullshit.
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Apr 17, 2017 16:47
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Elyv posted:funny that you mention that God that thing is so stupid
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Apr 17, 2017 16:48
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mandatory lesbian posted:Oh yeah, Rarity is a balancing mechanic for limited and that's fine, i meant more from a constructed stand-point with that statement since I don't think packs were made with limited in mind until...quite a while It's true that sets weren't designed for drafting until a few years into the game, but Magic wasn't designed to have a competitive constructed tournament scene. Garfield thought most people would spend $25-50 on cards like it was a board game and they'd end up with roughly the equivalent of sealed decks.
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Apr 17, 2017 16:48
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ShaneB posted:I still will never forget the episode of Top Level podcast, pre-pro tour, where Chapin and Flores spent the entire time talking about Ojutai Exemplars. For 2 reasons: 1) that Constructed Resources couldn't be interesting or useful even NOT talking about brewing and interesting cards and Top Level could with an ultimately unplayable card; and 2) how clearly it was filling air time not talking about what these guys were actually doing with competitive decks off-mic; and 2a) I really wanted Exemplars to be good and made an UW deck built around it that ultimately wasn't very good but when it worked it was fun AF. I stopped listening to them. They waste so much time talking about decks neither of them would ever actually play. Thompson and Majors are slightly more forthcoming.
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Apr 17, 2017 16:50
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Elyv posted:funny that you mention that Can you turn these in (shred) for a loot box? That's what those loot packs are for, right? e: yo trial of strength is accurate Chill la Chill fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 16:51
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whydirt posted:It's true that sets weren't designed for drafting until a few years into the game, but Magic wasn't designed to have a competitive constructed tournament scene. Garfield thought most people would spend $25-50 on cards like it was a board game and they'd end up with roughly the equivalent of sealed decks. Yeah, from what I hear about the early years, Magic should've been an LCG. They could've pioneered that type of game instead.
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Apr 17, 2017 16:53
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mcmagic posted:I stopped listening to them. They waste so much time talking about decks neither of them would ever actually play. Thompson and Majors are slightly more forthcoming. Yeah I haven't listened in a LOOOOOONG time. I agree that GAM is a bit better for viable (there I said it) stuff.
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Apr 17, 2017 16:54
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whydirt posted:It's true that sets weren't designed for drafting until a few years into the game, but Magic wasn't designed to have a competitive constructed tournament scene. Garfield thought most people would spend $25-50 on cards like it was a board game and they'd end up with roughly the equivalent of sealed decks. Maro likes to talk about Garfield saying that if rarity stopped being a useful balance mechanic then they'd already become a massive success, fails to mention that they never fixed that problem and definitely expect ppl to spend more than 20-50 and stop
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Apr 17, 2017 16:54
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Sickening posted:Cat combo pushes out more deck archtypes than even mardu does. Gonna try to not shitpost here or copy from MTGS...... Maybe I look at it differently since I'm a fairly casual player but there is way more to Standard than 2-3 and I hate to say the word "netdecks" that people play at an SCG Open or Pro Tour. I mean you can literally play hundreds of iterations of decks with the available cards in the format and I play all vs all kinds of variant brews at FNM's where people just chill to have fun. People play Mono Humans, Blue Counters, Pummeler variations etc etc. Of course there are a few who will take a tournament winning deck play it. I'm by no means an expert player and I play a stupid TurboFog Energy deck that I always talk about and I have no issue beating Tower, Saheeli, Vehicles and I play against good competition. I find it kind of stupid to ban cards based off Pro Tour/SCG Open results because I would hedge a bet to think that the Pro Tour and people who play on it make up less than 2% of the entire MTG community. It just seems silly to me then again, I'm just one person
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Apr 17, 2017 16:57
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Death Bot posted:Maro likes to talk about Garfield saying that if rarity stopped being a useful balance mechanic then they'd already become a massive success, fails to mention that they never fixed that problem and definitely expect ppl to spend more than 20-50 and stop
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Apr 17, 2017 16:59
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80s James Hetfield posted:Gonna try to not shitpost here or copy from MTGS...... Why would people who play casually give a poo poo about a ban list anyway? Who is playing cat combo casually?
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Apr 17, 2017 16:59
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An easy infinite combo is even more insufferable at middle levels of play because pros have a better idea of the lines to take to mitigate it, less skilled and more casual players be more likely to walk into the trap or may simply be unable to deal with it with what they have.
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Apr 17, 2017 17:02
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Sickening posted:Why would people who play casually give a poo poo about a ban list anyway? Who is playing cat combo casually? Because by casual I mean FNM level events, weekend store level events. I say the world casual because I don't grind out RPPTQ's or PTQ's but I still enjoy the game on a non pro level 90% or more of the MTG community is like this so banning cards in something that's obviously beatable makes no sense. It just seems silly we have standard banned cards that effect everyone just because Jim Davis lost to Todd Anderson (yes I'm just making up names) on SCG Opens 3-4 weeks in a row Again, why ruin the chance to play w/these cards for everyone simply because of whiners on the Pro Tour who attempt to play the game "professionally"
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Apr 17, 2017 17:06
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ShaneB posted:Yeah I haven't listened in a LOOOOOONG time. I agree that GAM is a bit better for viable (there I said it) stuff. This is probably true but the attitude on the carsts are so different. Tlp is fun to listen to and their enthusiasm for everything (usually bad things) is super strong. Gerry and co epitomise the mtg player everything is poo poo cynicism ethos too strongly.
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Apr 17, 2017 17:09
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The first FNM tournament I played I got Splinter Twinned out. That poo poo rolls downhill from the top tables, and there are probably people that pay enough attention at your store and are willing to buy 4 Saheeli.
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Apr 17, 2017 17:10
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80s James Hetfield posted:This makes no sense at all Sure it does. Any discussion about what is or is not playable in post Amonkhet standard is done under the assumption that the combo is banned, because otherwise it's irrelevant and won't matter since the format will be a boring dumpsterfire that most people won't play.
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Apr 17, 2017 17:10
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80s James Hetfield posted:Because by casual I mean FNM level events, weekend store level events. I say the world casual because I don't grind out RPPTQ's or PTQ's but I still enjoy the game on a non pro level Simply put, because game balance effects everyone. If the current state of the game didn't affect people at FNM like you are suggesting we wouldn't be having this massive issue with standard attendance across the board. Does that make sense?
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Apr 17, 2017 17:13
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Decks like cat combo are especially egregious with regards to FNM stuff because all it takes is a couple grinders playing them to make all the kids who don't know better get consistently blown out and not know how to deal with it.
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Apr 17, 2017 17:16
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:Gerry and co epitomise the mtg player everything is poo poo cynicism ethos too strongly. He reins that in during the show.
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Apr 17, 2017 17:16
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The Shortest Path posted:Decks like cat combo are especially egregious with regards to FNM stuff because all it takes is a couple grinders playing them to make all the kids who don't know better get consistently blown out and not know how to deal with it. This is it, I haven't played at FNM since like the second week of AER because I dont want to play against cats or cars again.
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Apr 17, 2017 17:20
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Sickening posted:Simply put, because game balance effects everyone. If the current state of the game didn't affect people at FNM like you are suggesting we wouldn't be having this massive issue with standard attendance across the board. Does that make sense? In a way yes and no. Of course playerbase and location have a big impact on that. Here in PA we still get 20+ for standard a week and as I said it's all kinds of decks. A few of the big 2-3, lots of 2nd tier things like Pummler, Reservoir and lastly brews. It makes standard here interesting because you see new things every week. The scene is alive here, it's not a dumpster fire of low attendance. People aren't happy they can't play banned cards. Call me stupid and crazy but I don't think a majority of the MTG playerbase follows, watches or even reads about the "pro sceneso when you tell some 16 or 17 year old kid who ripped a foil Copter or Emrakul out of his pack that he can't play it next week at FNM because it's banned due to the "pro scene" that drives people way from the game faster.
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Apr 17, 2017 17:21
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80s James Hetfield posted:In a way yes and no. Of course playerbase and location have a big impact on that. Here in PA we still get 20+ for standard a week and as I said it's all kinds of decks. A few of the big 2-3, lots of 2nd tier things like Pummler, Reservoir and lastly brews. It makes standard here interesting because you see new things every week. Yo, it's this: The Shortest Path posted:Decks like cat combo are especially egregious with regards to FNM stuff because all it takes is a couple grinders playing them to make all the kids who don't know better get consistently blown out and not know how to deal with it. Kids with their tiny bit of allowance aren't going to keep blowing $5 of it out on FNM every week and getting curb stomped. If it's your typical college town or just an older crowd, sure whatever but kids are pretty important. Given the option I'll go to the LGS that's stuck behind more traffic for FNM and has kids play and is a family friendly environment than the grognard store that's closer. But that's all preference.
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Apr 17, 2017 17:25
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You're stupid and crazy and have fallen prey to the "this problem doesn't exist at my table, so it's not a problem" fallacy.
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Apr 17, 2017 17:25
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Eikre posted:It should also be noted that rarity as a balancing mechanic is indispensable design tech which they have successfully integrated with Limited, along with the pack-cracking, jank-brewing conceits originally envisioned for how the game would be played. Magic duels does something like this. You can have 4x of a common, 3x of an uncommon, 2x of a rare and 1x of a mythic.
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Apr 17, 2017 17:32
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Cactrot posted:You're stupid and crazy and have fallen prey to the "this problem doesn't exist at my table, so it's not a problem" fallacy. If the top decks are so miserable that the grinders don't want to play them and the kinda-casual (fnm regularly and not much more) players are tired of losing to them then people stop showing up to fnm. Ppl not buying singles and packs closes stores, closed stores means some of the fnm players stop and some of the more casual players don't have incentive to show up or get new people into the game. If the pro scene is generally regarded as not worth watching then the secondary market takes a hit, and this is a massive source of free advertising for the game. It's not always immediately obvious but the whole thing is this goofy ecosystem that all connects to itself.
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Apr 17, 2017 17:38
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That said you're completely right, banning is a balancing act between people leaving for being bored of the format and people leaving for the deck they like/saved up for being banned. It's not a winnable scenario and it's why they hesitate to do it
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Apr 17, 2017 17:40
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Dr. Stab posted:Magic duels does something like this. You can have 4x of a common, 3x of an uncommon, 2x of a rare and 1x of a mythic. Which in some ways exacerbates and adds variance to the issue. Reserved cards are only a thing in vintage for good reason.
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Apr 17, 2017 17:39
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80s James Hetfield posted:Call me stupid and crazy but I don't think a majority of the MTG playerbase follows, watches or even reads about the "pro sceneso when you tell some 16 or 17 year old kid who ripped a foil Copter or Emrakul out of his pack that he can't play it next week at FNM because it's banned due to the "pro scene" that drives people way from the game faster. If the choice is to either unban the three cards banned before Aether Revolt or do nothing, I'm all for unbanning those cards. However, that would be admitting a mistake, which is something WotC tends to avoid doing. Given that we're stuck with a bunch of cards banned in standard and standard is terrible and almost certainly won't get better, they should seek to ban the fewest additional cards to enable a healthier metagame, and banning the Cat combo seems like the easiest way to do that. With Magma Spray in the format to take out Scrounger, there has to be a control deck that can defeat Mardu, but it seems really difficult to play Magma Spray when you have to face Cats half of your rounds. e: also even if I happened to have a bunch of cards for standard, I can't justify buying into a deck, because they've shown a willingness to ban cards in standard when they were merely unfun and too ubiquitous, and now there's one of the most resilient aggro decks that I can remember battling the best combo deck in years. I can't really justify buying into a deck that by all rights deserve to be banned more than my Aetherworks Marvel deck deserved to be banned, or other peoples' bad UW Flash deck deserved to be be banned. That UW Flash deck wasn't good and they loving banned eight cards from it! Hellsau fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 17:42
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80s James Hetfield posted:In a way yes and no. Of course playerbase and location have a big impact on that. Here in PA we still get 20+ for standard a week and as I said it's all kinds of decks. A few of the big 2-3, lots of 2nd tier things like Pummler, Reservoir and lastly brews. It makes standard here interesting because you see new things every week. I'm glad you live in loving Arcadia, and judging by you, it's a place unspoiled by good players.
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Apr 17, 2017 17:44
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Hellsau posted:If the choice is to either unban the three cards banned before Aether Revolt or do nothing, I'm all for unbanning those cards. Do you actually think that would be good? Seems like a crapshoot to me.
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Apr 17, 2017 17:44
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Knowing I'd be facing endless Value Copters would make me think twice about getting into Standard, to be honest. I mean I don't have that kind of money anyway, but in theory.
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Apr 17, 2017 17:44
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I wonder if you could do a points system (similar to australian highlander in concept) except it's a flat 1 point for uncommons, 4 points for rares, 8 points for mythics, and you get like 40 points all-up for your deck. So you get the similar-to-Limited situation where the commons and uncommons make up the bulk of decks (and the rares and mythics are splashy powerhouses), but you also get the consistency of having multiple copies of your important spells.
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Apr 17, 2017 17:45
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Rinkles posted:Do you actually think that would be good? Seems like a crapshoot to me. It's a matter of confidence. It might be just as bad a standard format, but at least people would be slightly more confident that if they buy into standard they're not going to get hosed in five weeks time. We went from a 3 deck format to a 2 deck format, and since the first set of bannings were specifically done because of the lack of diversity, it seems like expecting to continue playing your top tier standard deck past the banning cycle when it's a 2 deck format is insanity. Obviously they can't have Reflector Mage and Cat Combo legal at the same time though. Ban Cat, unban the other 3 sounds fine to me. Or gently caress it unban everything and let the cat combo take over and then ban standard and make everyone play Pauper for a season.
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Apr 17, 2017 17:49
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Jabor posted:I wonder if you could do a points system (similar to australian highlander in concept) except it's a flat 1 point for uncommons, 4 points for rares, 8 points for mythics, and you get like 40 points all-up for your deck.
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Apr 17, 2017 18:06
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Copycat is primed and ready to use Essence Scatter, Reduce to Rubble, and Gideon's Intervention to protect the combo further, so it's not like it doesn't get anything out of the new set. Nissa Seward is good for it on paper, but I'm not sure it has the slots for it. Real problem is still a lack of good removal, since even the best pieces in the set are still sorcery-speed.
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Apr 17, 2017 18:05
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Hey does anyone want to see Vial Smasher in Legacy? Because this is awesome - Mengucci deals 14 damage with Vial Smasher game one. https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-mengucci-legacy-grixis-smasher/
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Apr 17, 2017 18:07
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To follow up on those testing notes, U/G Nissa doesn't seem that great either. She has a powerful ability under 2 circumstances which aren't worth putting enough copies of the card into the deck - you top deck her really late when you can get a ton of counters on her for ultimating, or you play her on 3 when your opponent isn't doing anything; ideally following Sylvan Advocate. Mardu Vehicles feels really strong still, and I'm not testing with Gideon still in the deck. If you take out Heart of Kiran, there's still a slightly less good aggro deck that's W/R Humans that seems competitive so far. Insult // Injury can sometimes get you wins out of nowhere although that could just be a pet card. Although I have won plenty of games with Insult, get opponent real low on a mostly suicide attack and then Shock for 4 to the face. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 18:09
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