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Gridlocked posted:Heh good catch. Jon Loucks wasn't a card designer but rather a modo product designer I thought. It's a shame because he had a custom cube with some really fun cards.
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Nov 18, 2015 17:00
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Is that the guy who made space: the convergence? I liked that and regret never getting the full high-red renders before they were taken down.
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Nov 18, 2015 17:05
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Zoness posted:Jon Loucks wasn't a card designer but rather a modo product designer I thought.
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Nov 18, 2015 17:16
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Bread Set Jettison posted:I think its a really clean way to impliment a psuedo 6th color. In eldrazi sets they may use it as a pseudo 6th color, but if this is an evergreen or deciduous mechanic, then it would just be a way to make good artifacts and equipment without really damaging the color pie or making it way too expensive, since you have to make your mana base worse to gain effective access to that awesome artifact.
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Nov 18, 2015 17:19
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Why would they revolutionize the entire game, forever changing how every colorless mana generator works, to make a few cards in a small set more confusing?
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Nov 18, 2015 17:22
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Irony Be My Shield posted:It's actually something MaRo has talked about before - adding (1) (colorless mana) to your manapool is completely different to paying (1) (generic mana of any type) to cast a spell, and ideally those two things would not use the same symbol. This is just a good chance to change it to be consistent. And they would do this in a small set with a marquee card that costs 8♦♦, make a theme that directly opposes Devoid with a marquee card that does nothing for ingest/process?
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Nov 18, 2015 17:26
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:And they would do this in a small set with a marquee card that costs 8♦♦, make a theme that directly opposes Devoid with a marquee card that does nothing for ingest/process? Yeah. They would. Even in the original Rise of the Eldrazi, the relationship between Eldrazi and color was kind of schizophrenic to begin with.
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Nov 18, 2015 17:28
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It doesn't "directly oppose" devoid - all the colorless matters cards from BFZ will work with the diamond cards in OGW. Ingest/Process is clearly an Ulamog mechanic so yeah I can imagine Kozilek will do something different.
Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Nov 18, 2015 |
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Nov 18, 2015 17:32
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This does raise the issue of having another mechanic currently specific to this block that has like ten playable cards supporting it, but I guess that didn't stop them the first time. ♦ by itself is probably a good idea for the future though. Colorless has grown a real identity over the lifetime of the game and being able to make marquee colorless cards that you can't just splash freely into whatever normal deck probably opens up a lot of design space for them moving forward.
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Nov 18, 2015 17:38
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Irony Be My Shield posted:It doesn't "directly oppose" devoid - all the colorless matters cards from BFZ will be work with the diamond cards in OGW. Devoid is using colored mana for colorless cards. If your hypothesis is correct (because Ulamog and Mirrorpool inexplicably lack reminder text (which is one of the many reasons they're fake)) then ♦ cards directly refuse colored mana for colorless cards. This is direct opposition. One wants colored mana, the other wants colorless. These aren't independent sets, they'll be drafted together. Wastes is a common though so even if it were real (it's not) then the theme is inherently hosed from a drafting perspective. Say what you will about BFZ's archetype focus, at least you didn't have to draft basic lands instead of spells to enable anything. Irony Be My Shield posted:Ingest/Process is clearly an Ulamog mechanic This though... you're right, all the processors and ingesters are Ulamog's lineage.
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Nov 18, 2015 17:42
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You raise valid design concerns, but I still remind you that BFZ seems to have been a dubiously designed set from the get-go in terms of shamelessly parasitic mechanics so I don't think those are grounds enough by themselves to rule out the ♦.
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Nov 18, 2015 17:46
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the real great distortion here is turning the very funny start of this thread into bad speculation posts 
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Nov 18, 2015 17:48
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Devoid is using colored mana for colorless cards. Also, devoid and the Diamond/Hedron mana symbol are not at all in opposition if we assume that D means "Pay for this using only colorless mana"- the cards that play off of devoid care about colorless creatures/spells period. Devoid is just a way of making a larger variety of colorless cards while still requiring you to play specific colors- too many colorless cards has a lot of knock on effects. Also, wastes is a common, but I doubt that'll be the only way to get colorless mana in the set. There's already a good amount of colorless mana production in BFZ (Blighted lands, evolving wilds can get wastes now, kozilek's channeler/hedron archive), and I would expect to see more in Oath to support the theme. It may also appear with multiple art and/or be on the sheet more than once. Don't forget the next draft environment is OOB, not OBB. That combined with the small set size in Oath gives them a lot of room to really change the draft environment up.
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Nov 18, 2015 17:50
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All the discussion about a new mana symbol has got me and a buddy talking about 'snowdrazi', and, well
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Nov 18, 2015 17:51
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black potus posted:the real great distortion here is turning the very funny start of this thread into bad speculation posts A post as cryptic as the thread itself.
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Nov 18, 2015 17:52
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Voyager I posted:You raise valid design concerns, but I still remind you that BFZ seems to have been a dubiously designed set from the get-go in terms of shamelessly parasitic mechanics so I don't think those are grounds enough by themselves to rule out the ♦.
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Nov 18, 2015 17:53
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BFZ was already tied with Kamigawa for how insular it was. They are going for the record with OTG.
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Nov 18, 2015 17:55
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sarmhan posted:Mythics are allowed to omit reminder text for space reasons, that isn't evidence that they are fake. But it has flavor text. Elbrus is the only mythic to omit reminder text for flavor text, except it omitted the reminder text for evergreen keyword Equip. This is two different mythics both omitting reminder text for dubious reasons. Especially when it's a big loving deal like a mana symbol we've never seen before in the card's very casting cost. Incidentally Snow mana never showed up in a casting cost and Phyrexian mana wasn't at mythic. 22/23 snow mana cards have reminder text, the sole exception being flavor text-less Rhimefeather Owl, and all 34 phyrexian mana cards have reminder text. Mirrorpool should've been called out because 5 mana and sac is far below what they'd price a land that makes a clone. Christ Foundry of the Consuls costs 1 more to make 2 1/1 fliers, and it didn't also have the ability to Fork. quote:Also, devoid and the Diamond/Hedron mana symbol are not at all in opposition if we assume that D means "Pay for this using only colorless mana"- the cards that play off of devoid care about colorless creatures/spells period. Then why does a land produce ♦?
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Nov 18, 2015 17:57
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The Human Crouton posted:BFZ was already tied with Kamigawa for how insular it was. They are going for the record with OTG. BFZ might be weaker (and that's ignoring how strong mana bases are atm which is stupid but whatever) but it actually has pretty reasonable interplay with origins and khans?
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Nov 18, 2015 17:59
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Then why does a land produce ♦? Because that's the colorless symbol now.
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Nov 18, 2015 18:00
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Then why does a land produce ♦? I don't think it does. The diamond just looks better, and fits the aesthetic of full art lands better, than a big number 1.
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Nov 18, 2015 18:00
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Ferrinus posted:I don't think it does. The diamond just looks better, and fits the aesthetic of full art lands better, than a big number 1. 
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Nov 18, 2015 18:01
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Diamond mana is basically snow mana right? It's mana with a secondary attribute aside from color that depends on the source of said mana. I mean like I'm not seeing how this is a problem aside from Diamond Faerie 
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Nov 18, 2015 18:03
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I think that's just the new, no-ambiguities way to say "{1}" now, just because that seems less insane than any alternative.
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Nov 18, 2015 18:04
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Zoness posted:BFZ might be weaker (and that's ignoring how strong mana bases are atm which is stupid but whatever) but it actually has pretty reasonable interplay with origins and khans? What are you referring to?
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Nov 18, 2015 18:06
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There's a tonne of stuff in BFZ that would support a "colorless mana matters" theme - the cycle of blighted lands, the 4 additional colorless lands, scions, Kozilek's Channeler etc. Yeah you'd need to spend different "colours" of mana within your deck if you pick up devoid cards but that's like saying that red and blue devoid cards fundamentally oppose each other. With regards to draft something interesting to note is that you're getting a pack of basic lands with your OGW prerelease. So it's possible you can just add as many Wastes to your OGW limited deck as you like. Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:But it has flavor text. Elbrus is the only mythic to omit reminder text for flavor text, except it omitted the reminder text for evergreen keyword Equip. This is two different mythics both omitting reminder text for dubious reasons. Especially when it's a big loving deal like a mana symbol we've never seen before in the card's very casting cost.
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Nov 18, 2015 18:06
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Zoness posted:Diamond mana is basically snow mana right? It's mana with a secondary attribute aside from color that depends on the source of said mana. Doubtful. Snow mana was specifically any mana (of any color) that was produced by a permanent with the supertype "snow." Mirrorpool has no properties other than "land" and Wastes has no properties other than "basic land," so there's nothing to grant the diamond any additional properties.
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Nov 18, 2015 18:06
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Irony Be My Shield posted:You still haven't explained what the reminder text should be. "Use ♦ to cast ♦" doesn't seem necessary at all. If there's a rules update to change 1 to ♦ they aren't just going to randomly add reminder text to everything. Uh, "spend only colorless mana on ♦" like Consume Spirit?
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Nov 18, 2015 18:07
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Irony Be My Shield posted:You still haven't explained what the reminder text should be. "Use ♦ to cast ♦" doesn't seem necessary at all. If there's a rules update to change 1 to ♦ they aren't just going to randomly add reminder text to everything. (This card is fake.) The lack of reminder text to give ♦ meaning is part of why they are fake, because it's ambiguous as hell and this is a really big thing to introduce in the small set. Like I said, this is a 3rd set problem thing, where one set had to go in a wacky direction to maintain interest, like 5th dawn's WUBRG theme or Saviors cards-in-hand thing. Except Devoid/Ingest/Allies/Landfall/Converge really shouldn't have this problem in a two-set block.
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Nov 18, 2015 18:10
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Some Numbers posted:Doubtful. Snow mana was specifically any mana (of any color) that was produced by a permanent with the supertype "snow." Well the name wastes is kind of a property. I want to think diamond is a more direct implementation of snow since I know I like to joke about why Tendo Ice Bridge isn't a snow card and like it's not particularly intuitive that tapping Dark Depths when you have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth out produces a black mana that can be used to pay for snow  . I'm guessing it has a similar design origin but with a more distinct and explicit implementation.Aside from that like, whats actually the problem people are having w/ diamond mana.
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Nov 18, 2015 18:10
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Ferrinus posted:I think that's just the new, no-ambiguities way to say "{1}" now, just because that seems less insane than any alternative. Well no, it specifically means "1 colourless". It can't mean "{1}" because that is colour agnostic in a cost.
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Nov 18, 2015 18:11
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:(This card is fake.) This got me thinking that having a real keyword meaning "This card is fake" on real cards would be hilarious.
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Nov 18, 2015 18:11
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:(This card is fake.)  as opposed to  I mean on cards with a lot of text they drop mana symbol reminders.
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Nov 18, 2015 18:11
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Watch, if Wastes are real, our next 5 Fetches are going to be Search for a Wastes or [Color].
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Nov 18, 2015 18:12
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Count Bleck posted:Watch, if Wastes are real, our next 5 Fetches are going to be Search for a Wastes or [Color]. No, becuase nobody would actually want to play wastes in constructed.
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Nov 18, 2015 18:13
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I'm going to be pissed if Wastes are real and a bunch of good Diamond cards come out that make painlands spike in value, destroying another avenue for cheap dual lands in this loving standard.
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Nov 18, 2015 18:13
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♦ Instant edit: Wait, that's out of flavour. Fixed.
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Nov 18, 2015 18:14
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Mirrorpool should've been called out because 5 mana and sac is far below what they'd price a land that makes a clone. Christ Foundry of the Consuls costs 1 more to make 2 1/1 fliers, and it didn't also have the ability to Fork. 3 is what Mirari costs to Twincast spells, though, and you're also comparing a Mythic Rare to Uncommon in abilities. Obviously MIrrorpool isn't a card they'd want to be as common in draft pools as Foundry.
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Nov 18, 2015 18:14
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Zoness posted:
OFS mentioned this. It's the ONLY snow card that doesn't have reminder text.
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Nov 18, 2015 18:14
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Seems weird that kozilek doesn't have indestructible or a similar ability. Edit - eh guess it would be busted with his counter ability
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Nov 18, 2015 18:17
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