Magic the Gathering Appreciation Station

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Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

Think of all the new fetch lands we'll need though.

# ¿ Nov 18, 2015 02:55

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# ¿ May 3, 2024 14:27

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

How do we handle conspiracies in a constructed environment?

# ¿ Nov 24, 2015 03:10

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

Not really magic related but I know a bunch of goons in here are from Seattle and area. I'm stuck here on a 13 hour layover, what should I check out?

# ¿ Nov 30, 2015 18:35

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

PSA: Never, ever, ever play Arcane Denial against a control deck. It just won't end well for you. (Deny my removal spell? Ok, I drew two more.)

# ¿ Dec 11, 2015 00:24

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

Hellsau posted:

Naw, you Arcane Denial your own spell in response to your opponent's Counterspell. That tends to end well.

Sure, I guess, that like one corner case works. Like 90% of the time though playing Arcane Denial is just The Wrong Choice^TM.

# ¿ Dec 11, 2015 00:48

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

WotC loves to poo poo all over judges. This is just another dump on the pile.

Also, WotC gave some of our not-suspended judges some feedback:

WotC posted:

As you may have heard, several individuals were temporarily suspended from the DCI for collecting, accessing or distributing confidential and proprietary information before public release. As this was about theft of Wizards� intellectual property and not related to participation in Magic events as a player or judge, the investigation was handled by our internal team rather than by the player investigation or judge conduct committees.
We want to underscore that we performed a thorough investigation and determined that these leaks related to multiple card sets over a period of time; this was not a one-time occurrence. We do not enter into these types of decisions lightly or arbitrarily, but we must take action to protect the integrity of Wizards� intellectual property and the work of hundreds of Wizards� team members around the world. Individuals believed to not be directly distributing proprietary and confidential information were given shorter suspensions as opposed to longer suspensions provided to individuals who we found were directly engaged in distributing material to third parties

There's also a bunch more stuff still percolating on Reddit (including names of judges suspended, and some other fun facts), but this does sound like an extremely poorly executed "investigation" and a huge betrayal of trust on WotC's part.

# ¿ Dec 22, 2015 10:23

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

Cernunnos posted:

Most of the bans came from Florida. WELP. Not like it was a good state anyway.

Glad I don't really care about PPTQs and RPTQs and all that. Hate to see it happen to the people who do though.

I'm not from Florida (or the SE Region for that matter), but there's been a big scramble to find judges for events that can just no longer function due to these bans - some TOs are bending over backwards in compensation (both monetary and otherwise) to try and get judges in to cover events in time. There's a reason so many judges (and other folks) have been calling this for the huge poo poo show it's been.

# ¿ Dec 22, 2015 15:04

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

suicidesteve posted:

Please no Cabal Therapy. It used to be an interesting, skill-testing card until Gitaxian Probe ruined it.

It's never been a skill-testing card.

# ¿ Dec 22, 2015 15:05

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

Rinkles posted:

Just how many people were banned?

Over a dozen.

E: And in just one region, which is the important thing to note.

# ¿ Dec 22, 2015 15:07

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

Nehru the Damaja posted:

I quit judging immediately after the event where I earned my judgeship. Because I left thinking "holy poo poo this was not worth it." Be a rules advisor so you can help resolve poo poo at FNM if you really want but actual judging is the loving worst. Being freed from that is true benevolence on WotC's part.

Judging is fun if you are L2+ and can actual judge at events that aren't lousy as poo poo.

But a bigger part of the problem is that judges get very little for their time (again, unless you are a high enough level and working somewhere where your time is actually valued) - and this is especially true in smaller stores/less urban areas. And this is all because the burden of providing incentive for judges to work is on stores on not on WotC. (In fact WotC does it's best to make judges not want to judge, in my experience.)

# ¿ Dec 22, 2015 15:32

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

Fuzzy Mammal posted:

All this hush hush secrecy and rumour mongering is so precious. Why doesn't one of the banned people just come out and say exactly what happened one way or the other?

Presumably there are some legal ramifications. When the Zach Jesse debacle was going down he said as much as reason for why he wasn't just spouting off what was going down. It's not like we know anything more than what WotC has told us, either.

E: Us being the judge collective. We just know dudes got hit with the ban- :redhammer:

pretty hard, and the reason for why has been sketchy at best, with no supporting evidence beyond their incredibly credible sources.

Snacksmaniac posted:

Are you a sadist?

Lancelot posted:

judging is fun if you want to get browbeaten by rules lawyers, endlessly appealed and harassed by pros, and ignored by everyone else

Not really. I'm just the better rules lawyer so I shut would-be rules lawyers down fast. The appeal process is a necessary evil since it does ensure bad calls get caught for being bad calls (some of the time).

# ¿ Dec 22, 2015 15:52

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

Basically WotC sucks at handling everything and their PR is non-existent. This isn't news.

Sickening posted:

Patrick Sullivan is just too loving likable.

This is good poo poo.

# ¿ Dec 22, 2015 22:43

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

Serperoth posted:

Holy poo poo I missed a lot while having dinner with my aunt.

I didn't even know JudgeApps was third party and not even officially affiliated with WotC. Should have known by how it WORKS.

But yeah wow this is getting crazy. Really hoping this is the straw that breaks the Judge camel's back tbh. Just my gut feeling reading these posts, but yeah. Like I said, I have other 'beef' with the situation, but yeah.

One thing though, someone said "Helene Bergeot has an unenviable job and is doing her best", that's exactly how I feel. Don't know if she's just too good for Wizards or something else, but at times it's like she's the only one who's 'solid', compared to the rest of Wizards being... Directionless.

It won't be that straw, which is kind of unfortunate. I have - quite sadly - see other judges take up torch and pitchfork on WotC's behalf in this situation. Why, we'll never know. But I will agree that Helene is loving amazing, and has the patience of a saint. She really is too good at what she does to be doing it for an organization as lovely as WotC - although on the other hand her being there does give a faint hope for improvements within.

# ¿ Dec 23, 2015 03:17

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

I'm rather interested in how WotC got access to this private group, and why it's taken so long to act if this has been an ongoing affair over multiple sets. Doesn't seem like this is the sort of thing you just let play out because "maybe they won't do it again."

E: And if it was just a whistleblower now, then it kind of implies that their information is recent and not at all a long investigation over a period of sets.

# ¿ Dec 23, 2015 03:33

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

It may not be en masse - and it might certainly be a bit drastic - but there's already a number of judges resigning (and/or intentionally lapsing since it's renewal season) in light of SeaGate [we need a snappier name]. This amidst other talk like strikes/denial of judging services in some groups. I know there's other judges here, so I implore you all to think long on what you want to do in the fallout of this incident, since it's always sad to see fellow judges go.

# ¿ Dec 24, 2015 07:14

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

jassi007 posted:

So imo this is more nonsense than not. If someone posts a card here, a "closed group" and I tweet it, they might suspend me. It is my job as a DCI member to report any leak I see unless I can verify someone else leaked it first by GIS or whatever. What a load of poo poo that is.

I'm really happy that Helene agreed to the interview but even more disappointed in WotC after listening through. Obviously there's some bias in the non-interview segment, but it really seems like WotC's expectations of their playerbase (REPORT ALL THE NEW CARDS YOU SEE ANYWHERE FOREVER) is rather unreasonable, and their response to this situation rather disproporionate.

# ¿ Dec 24, 2015 09:01

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

TheKingofSprings posted:

Tron is popping a gigantic erect Urza's Tower at the prospect of running that card

In its sideboard maybe.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2015 17:20

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

As a titan bloom player I can say Crumbling Vestige probably isn't going to make the cut unless we also see some really strong colorless-costing cards right in that 6 mana mana sweet spot. Even then, we already have a few lands that ETB untapped to make colorless while Vestige requires amulet to do so immediately (with the upside being it generates 2 mana in this case).

Given how unimpressive the spoiled mythics have been I don't have much hope for rares/uncommons, so I'm thinking vestige will likely not do anything impressive.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2015 23:34

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

Irony Be My Shield posted:

I like it, it's a 2 drop that will be oversized a lot of the time. I think you can also use it to copy eg Titan's Strength for what it's worth, which could be relevant in a deck with a haste-giver.

I kindof like it in that weird modern deck, a lot of the time it will be like a goyf that you can cast off a sol land/for free with an Eye of Ugin.

Depending on how the copy ability is phrased it likely will copy base P/T so you won't be able to like cheese big guy + pump spell to make him huge.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2015 21:42

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

Booklegger posted:

Nah, it'll copy base power and toughness either way. Layers, man. Layers.

It entirely depends on the ability phrasing. If it copies values then pumps don't matter (because of layers), but it sets its own base P/T to a value equal to the new creature's P/T then pump spells are totally relevant.

I just assume it will use copy text because the power level of this set has been super low so why deviate now.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2015 22:49

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

Booklegger posted:

Can you find an old card that sets it's own P/T in such a way? (Where pump spells are relevant) I can't think of a single example off hand. But, well, ~*Edge Cases*~

Sworn Defender from Alara had a P/T settling ability that used current P/T and not base. In both cases these types of abilities aren't used often so it could easily be either and we won't know until we get the English language printing.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2015 23:14

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

cheetah7071 posted:

If I understand layers (I probably don't), then it doesn't matter whether the effect is a copy effect--effects that set P/T to specific values always apply before pumps anyways.

Which is exactly why we are saying phrasing of the ability is what matters. If it uses copy specifically or sets in another fashion.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2015 23:15

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

Zoness posted:

Alliances .

Really a mouthful for conveying the idea of "don't kill the guy".

Oops yeah I'm dumb but yeah

# ¿ Dec 29, 2015 23:17

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

The P/T setting ability is a trigger ("When this happens do this") and not continuous (literally every llurgoyf), first of all.

Secondly, the outcome of the ability depends on the phrasing of it. If it's a copy ability that checks copiable values (ie. Base P/T) then pumps won't matter because of how layers are applied. However, if the ability simply sets P/T based on the creature's P/T when the ability resolves then pumps will matter.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2015 23:30

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

Entropic posted:

If a card is checking power or toughness of a creature, it looks at what the value actually currently is, including all modifiers. It's why you can counter a Complete Disregard with a Titan's Strength.

Yes, but copiable traits of cards don't change. Ability phrasing is going to completely dictate how this works.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2015 23:35

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

cheetah7071 posted:

Oh that makes sense. It is a continuous effect, but since the effect is created by a triggered ability, not a static ability, it gets to "check" what values to use outside of the layer system (1/1 in my example). Then it uses that same value in layer 7b that it found when the triggered ability resolved, regardless of anything else.

No it's not a continuous effect at all. Continous effects change without using the stack based on certain game conditions. For example you can't kill a 2/3 Tarmogoyf with Bolt if there are no instant in a graveyard because its P/T become 3/4 by the time we check to see if it has lethal damage. It changes instantly, we cannot respond to it. If Mimic was a continuous then its P/T would change as the P/T of the new creature changes which it doesn't do. It a P/T setting triggered ability and that only happens once.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2015 23:38

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

Angry Grimace posted:

For a while I thought Summer Bloom was going to get banned. But I actually think Amulet of Vigor is going to eat the ban to just kill the deck.

I'd be surprised if anything got banned from it. It's a strong deck, to be sure, but like with a lot of combo decks if your opening 7 (or 6+ scry) aren't potent then a lot of 'fair' decks beat you pretty hard.

E:

Sickening posted:

Amulet bloom just bloomed in under 4 minutes.

My favorite memory playing the deck was at a GP where I took both games in 3 turns (I like to play SSG Bloom so I can Bloom out on T1).

# ¿ Jan 4, 2016 01:02

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

Konstantin posted:

Amulet Bloom is fairly unusual in that it broke out a hell of a lot later than it should have. You can build a list with cards from AVR and earlier, but it didn't really become a top deck until more than a year after that. Any reason why people didn't play it in the era of Jund?

It's just been a tuning thing. I've been in on it at the ground floor, back when it was more invested in blue and played a little more fair (via Trinket Mage). You'd go off T4/T5 pretty much every time, with the occassional but draw (like it has now) - but a midgame combo that didnt have much control or protection was pretty soft. Each new tweak and iteration has helped push it towards being just a bit more explosive at the expense of consistency. Pacts have also come in to help us protect early combo, and Hive Mind as an alt win con. Like a lot of decks the only hurdle to getting it played was getting it to a point where it was a strong playable deck.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2016 05:00

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

TheKingofSprings posted:

Awesome, City of Brass for a mechanic that's not likely to come back ~~for a while~~ ever.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2016 03:06

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

jassi007 posted:

My thought on it is like this.

1. the Development side of R&D are pro players. They trust them to judge/fix power level of the game.

2. Multiple experienced pro's who have played the game for some time, many of whom have either acknowledge job offers for R&D (LSV) or probably have been offered one, have said the deck is to good.

That isn't the most solid basis in the world to expect a ban, but it makes sense to me. The deck isn't rampant because it isn't as easy to play as some other stuff. Sequencing and triggers and decisions on what to tutor for give it multiple points where a player can screw it up. If you make all the right decisions the deck is gross.

The point of contention I'd take here is that most of the pros whose judgment you seem to trust either waffle on their opinions - LSV, for example, has said the deck is 'busted' while playing it and going off, and has also commented on how the deck is not strong enough to play because it's too inconsistent while playing against it and winning - or are just huge divas like PVDDR. I think there's a huge gulf in the actual strength of the deck and the perceived strength of the deck. Similarly, Grishoalbrand is another equally strong deck that can go off multiple ways with arguably less complexity, and the pro diva players love it and think it's fine.

What I'm saying here is you can't trust players of any caliber to have unbiased judgment on the level of balance in the game because they have a vested interest in it.

That said, if Bloom eats a ban I'd wager Goryo's decks will eat a ban, and possible infect. Because, while wildly inconsistent in the same measure, they are the other decks that can pull of T2 wins with infrequent consistency.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2016 19:28

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

Legacy Christmas Land!

T1: Island, Ponder/Brainstorm/Preordain
T2: Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, Hedron Alignment
T3: [Hedron Alignment trigger on the stack], cast Intuition for 3 x Hedron Alignment, [activate Faerie Macabre] exiling one Hedron Alignment, [Hedron Alignment trigger resolves] you win.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2016 03:06

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

Dungeon Ecology posted:

but why elephant? that feels so green to me its like blue just robbed greens color pie for an until EOT beast within. I mean I know its not that but elephant?

Nostalgia for Terastodon the last time we were on Zendikar.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2016 07:15

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

mcmagic posted:

Scapeshift, Bloom and Twin can beat 1 counter super easily...

With BloomTitan it's incredibly depending on what you counter and what they kept. Sometimes a Spell Pierce or Spell Snare turns a medium hand into an incredibly dead one.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2016 22:23

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

That statement may as well read "Banning those judges for something we didn't really check out fully was a PR nightmare so we're doing our best to backtrack."

# ¿ Jan 13, 2016 21:16

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

mcmagic posted:

They did the right thing.

No they didn't. The right thing is to fully investigate a matter before slamming down the hammer. They did the absolute wrong thing. Trying to undo the incredibly wrong thing you did doesn't somehow make it go away (although I bet they wish it would).

# ¿ Jan 13, 2016 21:51

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

MiddleEastBeast posted:

Unless wizards also invented time travel, I'm not sure how harping on this point is relevant though

An apology would go a long way. By reducing the suspensions to basically just time already served, WotC is standing firm that they were 100% justified in their knee-jerk reactionary bans. The only reason they're even making a public showing of this is to try and earn back some favor from people who don't see that there's nothing apologetic about the should-be-an-apology announcement.

# ¿ Jan 13, 2016 21:59

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

MiddleEastBeast posted:

Even if it didn't come out with a full blown "We're really sorry for messing this up", the wording of the announcement makes clear that they've fully absorbed the need to very clearly communicate very clearly what the stance is around leaks and culpability (the details of which seemed very reasonable from this latest post). The fact that it took like 5 announcements to get it right is par for the course for Wizards, and I guess I'm giving them credit for getting it this right at all, given the low bar. Maybe I should be holding them to some absolute standards, but it's a company run by socially awkward nerds with no business sense catering to an audience of extremely sensitive socially awkward nerds, and I'm fine with this announcement.

Knowing how to proceed down the road doesn't magically undo their gross gently caress up, though. They need to be held to the same standard that you'd hold to any other person or corporation, because otherwise they'll just keep getting to screw up because "Well, WotC, amirite? :unsmith:

"

The fact that they admit no fault for their own rash decisions is yet another slap in the face to the community and those who support it. For the most part WotC has just stirred the pot some more, and it's clear there's still a lot of hurt feelings and animosity over their lack of anything close to good community relations.

# ¿ Jan 13, 2016 22:51

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

I have a couple proxies from other sources and they're all clearly marked just for the reason that if something ever happened to them people don't think they're real cards.

That said, someone PM me a good place to acquire some good looking fake cards so I can finish my cube and stop giving WOTC money to play limited.

# ¿ Jan 13, 2016 23:05

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

dragon enthusiast posted:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/learning-opportunities-2016-01-13

The judges that got suspensions for leaking Kozilek/Wastes got their time off reduced to 23 days, and the suspension doesn't go on permanent record

Basically Elaine gives the response that should have gone out instead of Pat-trick's dumb thing

As of this posting they still show up on the banned/suspended roster. I believe the "permanent record" chatter is just that these bans won't be used in tandem with other info for future cases.

Guess that could change though.

# ¿ Jan 14, 2016 05:11

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# ¿ May 3, 2024 14:27

Mikujin: May 25, 2010; (also a lightning rod)

Hellsau posted:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Mirrodin/Tooth+and+Nail#paper

It's been rapidly increasing in price since a week before that article went up.

Clearly the CFB card cabal has been buying them up in record numbers anticipating the spike before they released their article.

# ¿ Jan 14, 2016 23:08

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