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babypolis posted:being really stupid doesnt make you a bad person They're not running off to become Mormon wives or join Scientology. They're knowingly running off to join an organisation which tortures and kills people. They've made a conscious decision they want to be part of that. You can argue that teenagers in general aren't good at considering long term consequences and have a tendency to romanticise stuff, but it's not like the IS is in any way secretive about what they actually do. This isn't even a matter of getting in with a "bad crowd" which ultimately ends up doing something violent kind of lapse of judgement. The teenagers who join the IS know well in advance exactly what it does and intends to continue doing. It's part of the attraction for them. A Stupid Baby posted:Literally celebrating the fact that a couple girls were groomed, recruited, turned into sex slaves, and beaten to death by terrorists is a position that cannot even be measured in Jon Pops Nobody's celebrating it. We're just saying that you can't hand-wave away young men and women joining the IS as just "stupid" or "gullible" when what the IS does and stands for is so public. They want to be part of the brutality, either directly or indirectly, otherwise they'd run away to join an equally fundamentalist Islamic sect which practises sharia but not terrorism. babypolis posted:i dont think they were cognizant of what isis actually was. hence why they attempted to escape shortly after joining Now you're just making poo poo up. They went there in April 2014. 18 months later isn't any reasonable person's definition of "shortly after joining". Lolie fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 10:54
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Minorkos posted:mental illness excuses you of a lot of things actually. having been depressed, it's not really a state of mind you can make rational decisions in The actual test is not whether you suffer from a mental illness but whether you're sufficiently impaired by that mental illness as to be incapable of distinguishing right from wrong. There is no reason we should apply a different test to those who travel overseas to aid a terror group than we would apply to those who aided a domestic terror group. Does the IS know how to locate disaffected young people and exploit their disillusionment in order to recruit them? Absolutely. Does that absolve those recruits of responsibility? No. You have to wilfully ignore a lot of red flags to get to the point of joining just like you need to wilfully ignore a lot of red flags to become a 419 scam victim or join a cult. We owe them no more sympathy than we owe Elliot Rodger. We need to understand their choices so that we can disrupt the ability of the IS and similar organisations to recruit young Westerners, but understanding and sympathy are different beasts. Lolie fucked around with this message at 11:39 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 11:35
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echronorian posted:Do they get male virgins? I sure hope they do, Allah willing. Nope. She gets her husband, and she will be happy with him. quote:
http://islamqa.info/en/11419 http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2007/03/honey_im_dead.html http://www.livescience.com/6237-islamic-faith-promise-martyrs.html
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Nov 28, 2015 12:06
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babypolis posted:yall are a bunch of hateful retards Well that's a compelling argument.
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Nov 28, 2015 22:50
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babypolis posted:i already tried to argue with you idiots but you all continue to revel and rejoice in the death of someone who probably suffered one of the worst fates imaginable so yeah continue being hateful shits gbs Your argument was kind of disingenuous because it totally overlooks the role these women play in 1) recruiting others to also join the IS and 2) policing other women who join the IS (and exposing those women to harsh punishment and death by doing so). It's not as simple as "well the only people their bad judgement hurt was themselves and they paid for it dearly". There are a ton of articles on the recruitment of women, both Western and those from already fundamentalist regions. Some of them are more comprehensive than the one you linked and some of them are written by Muslim women. Some explore the difference between those women who make that final journey and those who don't, and while it's apparent that women who are successfully recruited share a number of characteristics, it's also apparent that their motivations and the roles they seek within the IS can be quite different. These women ultimately became poster children in a manner different than they had hoped, but it's probably not going to do a damned thing to discourage other young women from joining the IS. Son of Rodney posted:I generally agree with babypolis but honestly these girls were 17, which is not exactly babby age anymore, and ISIS is one of the most covered things in the world right now, so it's not like they didn't know they were huge dicks. They were 15 and 16 when they went there. The woman in the article babypolis linked was 23. In all cases they had personal characteristics which made them ripe for being manipulated and they would probably have made some other horrendous choice of "cause" to join had the IS not found them first. It's unfortunate that their "gently caress you dad/world" choice was the IS and that they don't get a do-over, but you don't always get second chances in life. Some bad choices, both impulsive and long considered, are life-shattering or life-ending. Lolie fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 23:17
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EXTREME INSERTION posted:There was definitely an article out about a woman who joined isis and became part of one of their female brigades. Their responsibilities included making sure the other women were up to religious code, and other women regularly got beaten, tortured and killed by them. This woman then left isis when her husband nearly beat her to death. I feel bad for the fact that her husband nearly beat her to death, but not bad for her personally because she enjoyed power tripping with the religious sisters from hell and only bailed out when her own rear end was on the line There are also the ones attracted by the images of women with AKs. It's mostly a bait and switch and they generally end up being wives or "comfort" women when they get there, but it's kind of hard to feel sympathy for them when their primary motivation for going was to be trained to kill people. And yeah, the "religious police" women aren't just policing other women who've joined voluntarily. They're also policing those who were kidnapped and actively making the lives of those women more miserable. Lindt would probably be horrified by the IS giving their chocolate as gifts to those the IS is trying to recruit, but it gives us one more piece of information we can use to identify those who are becoming radicalised before they pass the point of no return. Lolie fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Nov 28, 2015 |
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Nov 28, 2015 23:28
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OldMemes posted:
FWIW, the IS is actively trying to recruit Saudi women too. There've been a ton of articles on the subject following the screening of the Channel 4 documentary last week. http://www.channel4.com/programmes/isis-the-british-women-supporters-unveiled/on-demand/60376-001 Lolie fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Nov 29, 2015 |
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Nov 29, 2015 00:06
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quote:James Foley, a journalist she had never heard of, had been beheaded by ISIS, a group she knew nothing about. The searing image of the young man kneeling as the knife was lifted to his throat stayed with her. This is the young woman in the story linked by babypolis. The IS didn't seek her out. She sought them out. If your reaction to imagery of someone having their throat slit is to seek out sympathisers so that you can "understand", then you're already half way to accepting their justifications. A frightening number of the IS recruitment stories start with "I just wanted to know so I sought out Islamic extremists". Methanar posted:Are the Syrian women who were are native to Syria, or otherwise captured, and used as sex slaves/wombs for making more jihadi's/etc also war criminals for being complicit? Our attitude towards "collaborators" and "enemy non-combatants" was codified a long time ago. If you volunteer to join/aid the enemy, then you're open to repercussions even if you gave that aid on the basis of false promises (they promised you a hulky, jihadi husband or a role as a female warrior and made you a sex slave instead, for instance). I think we desperately need to revise those "rules" to bring them more in line with the modern world, but in what direction I'm not sure. Realistically, we're not going to see modern day Nuremburg trials, but we do need to decide what the hell we're going to do with people we capture who've in some way been involved in atrocities against others or who return voluntarily. The RICO-type option of "we'll give you a free pass if you roll over on others" seems somehow insufficient. Lolie fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Nov 29, 2015 |
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Nov 29, 2015 00:31
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whoflungpoop posted:15 year old socially isolated boys shoot up their high school: rightfully reviled for being evil I'm a women and I'm arguing that the 15 year old girls shouldn't be given a pass just because they're treated badly by the IS and don't get their names in Dabiq when they die. The reasons why teenagers find the IS appealing are not substantially different between genders. The 15 year old boy who shoots someone in the name of the IS (which happened here in Sydney recently) and gets shot by police has been just as manipulated into romanticising their actions by the IS as the 15 year old girl who travels to Syria. Just because we often can't directly measure the harm these women do to others doesn't mean they're doing none. People die because of the choices these young women have made, whether or not these young women ever pick up a weapon themselves or "merely" entice others into danger or throw them to the wolves.
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Nov 29, 2015 01:20
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A Stupid Baby posted:I don't think it's very funny that people are literally applauding the acts of the actual ISIS terrorists for grooming, raping, and then beating to death women because they have worked out in their head that they (the two girls) can technically be called "terrorists" despite never having committed nor probably never even intended to commit actual terrorist acts Why does the discussion have to be framed in binary terms? Degrees of culpability exist. These girls were neither totally blameless nor at the top of the culpability hierarchy. They're "victims" in the same sense that Manson's followers were victims. Manipulated? Yes, but willingly so. We're not talking Patti Hearst types who were kidnapped and developed Stockholm syndrome. If these young women had successfully escaped back to the West should we have dismissed their actions as youthful indiscretions or held them accountable for their role in aiding the IS? If they're gullible enough to attach themselves to one horrific "cause" how do we know they won't repeat that in the future, when there's evidence gullible people often do get conned repeatedly throughout their lives? How do we know, for that matter, that the IS isn't employing Cold War tactics and sending them back to spread disinformation? Lolie fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Nov 29, 2015 |
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Nov 29, 2015 01:47
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whoflungpoop posted:if these girls manage to discourage just one other dopey teen from running away to ISIS then at least their deaths will have some meaning bc some unfortunate souls are fated to reach their peak value in serving as a warning to others The IS will have some kind of infidel/apostate narrative to justify their deaths. Potential recruits who accept that the beheadings, the slavery and all the other poo poo can be justified aren't going to be deterred by this. In their own minds they're "good Muslims" and simply don't believe they're ever going to do anything which would make the IS want to kill them.
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Nov 29, 2015 05:07
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Decrepus posted:How long would 72 virgins even last the average rapist/murderer Muslim in the afterlife? I guess they would slow down their rape/murders as they near the end of their supply? The houri are eternal virgins. Their virginity rejuvenates so you never "run out" of virgins. They don't have bodily secretions, either. Poetic Justice posted:I love all the dumb people that think Islam is cool, they are like "well, only 1 percent of them believe in the extremist views" They have stats and graphs showing this. This is the best they can get. It's "just" 1%. Hey shitlords, it's true, it's only one percent. That's still 22,000,000 people. No problem, rofl, let them all in. It's even more complicated than that. "Moderate" Islam can still be extremely fundamentalist. Saudi Arabia is not alone in being a wealthy nation with modern infrastructure with a harsh Sharia legal system. Only last year, Brunei expanded both the range of offences covered by Sharia and the range of punishments for those offences (severing of limbs, anyone?).
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Nov 29, 2015 06:35
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Cockmaster posted:
How do you quantify the harm caused to others by things like recruiting and propaganda? I guess we're about to see how the UK handles it in modern times. Our framework is from the 20th Century. Tokyo Rose got imprisoned for radio broadcasts way back when but given the enormous reach the internet gives people and the sophisticated ways in which the IS recruits, should penalties be more lenient or more harsh now? Should the totality of the circumstances matter much when you willingly aid and abet a criminal organisation, whether it's Mexican cartels or the IS? Should we judge them less harshly because they were influenced when we don't accept that as mitigation for more mundane offences?
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Nov 30, 2015 02:28
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