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Cat Mattress posted:Hey, if you want to be serious about appropriation, you gotta be serious about appropriation! All black artists using the Belgian invention known as the saxophone should be erased from history. Same for all the black artists using turntables in sampling, as they are appropriating the cultural contributions of the great cultural icon T. A. Edison.
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Dec 3, 2015 00:06
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:"Shaping reality" is censorship, you heard it here first. Yeah, bullying a label into dropping an interpret is de facto censorship.
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Dec 3, 2015 00:06
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If black people ran the country and routinely murdered white people with the justification that "saxophone culture" was proof that they were violent, inhuman monsters and then put out wacky ironic saxophone videos to promote their car dealerships and state legislature campaigns then that sure as poo poo would be behavior worth criticizing.steinrokkan posted:Yeah, bullying a label into dropping an interpret is de facto censorship. a. Literally no one did that, it was a hysterical hypothetical made up by your side of the argument. b. are you criticizing this (hypothetical) behavior? WHY DO YOU HATE FREEDOM Tiny Brontosaurus fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 00:08
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Oh hey look, criticism = censorship again. There's a difference between crying censorship and pointing out the absurdity of a particular type of criticism. This isn't that hard to understand if you actually read what's written instead of conflating poo poo to pad your own story. Nobody here has so far actually criticized Azalae for anything other than being the wrong type of person. My response to the notion that "she's taking up a spot that could be filled by a black person" is: a) That's not how the market works and she isn't actually b) Even if she were taking up a spot, ok, then what? I get that it's super convenient for you to tear down strawmen, but I come from a place with a long history of actual brutal censorship, so your bullshit doesn't get a pass, sorry.
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Dec 3, 2015 00:10
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lite frisk posted:There's a difference between crying censorship and pointing out the absurdity of a particular type of criticism. This isn't that hard to understand if you actually read what's written instead of conflating poo poo to pad your own story. Hmmmmmm so you're criticizing a type of criticism? Why are you trying to ban criticism you nazi? You made up this bullshit hypothetical out of whole cloth so you don't get to whine about it now. Make even a passing attempt to engage with the actual roots of the black community's objection to people like Azalea or shut up and go back to "correcting" obvious jokes.
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Dec 3, 2015 00:11
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:a. Literally no one did that, it was a hysterical hypothetical made up by your side of the argument. So you didn't say it was fine to accuse a company of racism if they employed *problematic* artists ("her label should drop her" in the specific context of the post to which you replied)? And such accusation isn't political, and therefore a form of pressure, especially in a day and age when a random Tweet can be blow into a national story?
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Dec 3, 2015 00:16
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steinrokkan posted:So you didn't say it was fine to accuse a company of racism if they employed *problematic* artists ("her label should drop her" in the specific context of the post to which you replied)? And such accusation isn't political, and therefore a form of pressure, especially in a day and age when a random Tweet can be blow into a national story? Of course it's loving fine, it's also loving legal which all you Ras Trents can't seem to wrap your heads around. Political pressure is not censorship. Criticizing an artist is not banning that artist. Criticizing the artist's label is not banning an artist. Criticism and political pressure are the tools with which citizens change society. If you don't like people criticizing Azalea good news! You have the legal right to produce speech too. You can cry about the Azalea-haters all day long and I can laugh at you for doing so all day long. Iggy's free to make lovely music and I'm free to say it sucks and you're free to be mad about it. That's America.
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Dec 3, 2015 00:20
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Hmmmmmm so you're criticizing a type of criticism? Why are you trying to ban criticism you nazi? Let me rephrase the bullshit hypothetical so you get the gist of what it was supposed to express: "So what?" But it's time to move the goalposts arrrrroouunnnndddddd!!!! I'll play along by asking again: what's the objection/criticism to Azalea?
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Dec 3, 2015 00:21
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lite frisk posted:Let me rephrase the bullshit hypothetical so you get the gist of what it was supposed to express: "So what?" People already answered that you twat, including me, so how about you read before posting.
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Dec 3, 2015 00:22
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:People already answered that you twat, including me, so how about you read before posting. And I answered the answer. But instead of reading that you invented this weird rear end strawman of "so you think this is censorship? just lmao"
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Dec 3, 2015 00:24
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lite frisk posted:And I answered the answer. But instead of reading that you invented this weird rear end strawman of "so you think this is censorship? just lmao" You know this poo poo is written down, right? Like, the only post of yours (which are still here, in writing, where I can read them) that might remotely qualify as an "answer" is your spittle-flecked SO YOU THINK WE SHOULD FORCE THE LABEL TO BAN IGGY????? So you know, go gently caress yourself if you think that even remotely resembles for a good-faith attempt to understand the issues at hand.
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Dec 3, 2015 00:25
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8UTj8lQJhY this is loving hilarious
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Dec 3, 2015 00:29
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:You know this poo poo is written down, right? Yes, right here: lite frisk posted:Ignoring the huge can of worms titled "what is a market niche?" and the fact that off the top of my head I can't think of more than like 3 white rappers compared to black artists in the same genre - are you going to suggest Azalea's label should be forced to drop her, stop selling her music and pick up a black artist instead? I get that reading comprehension is hard, but let me break it down for you into three bites: 1. Azalea occupies a particular market niche of "white female rapper" (being a bit reductionist). Suggesting that she's taking up a spot that a black person could have had is the same as suggesting that milk is occupying a spot that could have been taken up by iced tea. I mean, sure, that's technically right, but it's kind of bizzare to get upset about it since both things easily coexist. 2. Prominent black artists in the genre outnumber whites in the same genre by what ratio? 3. Even if she is in fact occupying someone's spot - so what? - but instead of saying "so what?" I pose an absurd hypothetical. I know it's absurd, that's the loving point.
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Dec 3, 2015 00:34
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Ddraig posted:I don't really have any particularly strong opinions on Eminem but he's actually an incredibly talented dude, and has earned his success. He was known as an insane battle rapper long before he ever got signed. Similarly, many of the "hardcore" pioneers of gangsta rap were relatively well-off (for the ghetto) kids who graduated from school on time and poo poo, not the gang-bangers they made themselves out to be. Ice Cube is a great example. Now, of course, their friends and neighbors were wrapped up in that, and they had exposure to it, but they themselves were not. 50 Cent was popular partially because he was seen as having "real" street cred due to getting arrested for drug dealing. This is not dissing these people as artists, it's the nature of the hyperreality of popular music. Now that being said, there's a lot to be said for how the music industry aims for marketability over substance, and the way race intersects with marketability. But its more complicated than Iggy Azaela bad, Eminem good.
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Dec 3, 2015 00:37
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lite frisk posted:My response to the notion that "she's taking up a spot that could be filled by a black person" is: That was a devil's advocate point by the way. Question was "which harm does Azalea actually do" and taking an opportunity is pretty much it. Point is that you can't prove that it's harmful, because that'd require to have silly stuff like labels having a quota of rap artists they'll sign up and not one more, this kind of things. Racism is a question of opportunities open to some and denied to others. So when you have an opportunity that is open to you, and you see it taken by someone who had other opportunities open to them, but that are closed to you, it hurts. It's a "we don't even have that" moment which makes it cultural appropriation; as opposed to my silly counter-example of appropriating symphonic orchestra. (On this topic...) Azalea causes no direct harm to anyone; and in the abstract there's no reason a white musician cannot perform rap music. But it can annoy people and they don't entirely lack a point.
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Dec 3, 2015 00:40
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lite frisk posted:Yes, right here: Yeah, everything after "Are you going to suggest" is a strawman that you made up. Absolutely no one suggested it but you. That's what we've been talking about ever since. I know that because of how words on the internet are written down and thus readable even after they are typed. You'd think people would use that as a reason not to try and backpedal but you'd think people could understand the concept of "if I'm free to say my opinions so are other people" and welp, here we are. Again, reading not being your strong suit, I'm not sure you're aware that my username being comprised of entirely different letters than Cat Mattress's indicates that we do in fact have different names and thus are different people? I had a completely different set of letters arranged into words expressing my opinion on appropriation, which you clearly have not read. And yet lied that you did! Huh!
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Dec 3, 2015 00:40
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Basically, the musical issue can be seen through people's response to sampling. Daft Punk (two French guys) takes an old soul song (Cola Bottle Baby by Edwin Birdsong, who is black) and makes Harder Better Faster Stronger. They attribute their sample in the liner notes. Generally considered a great song. Kanye takes their sample, with their permission, and makes Stronger. We legitimately had people freaking out about this on SA, acting like Kanye stole something, and his use of the sample proves how little skill at music he actually has. It's not really the use that is the problem with appropriation, it is the response.
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Dec 3, 2015 00:52
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Yeah, everything after "Are you going to suggest" is a strawman that you made up. Absolutely no one suggested it but you. That's what we've been talking about ever since. I know that because of how words on the internet are written down and thus readable even after they are typed. You'd think people would use that as a reason not to try and backpedal but you'd think people could understand the concept of "if I'm free to say my opinions so are other people" and welp, here we are. It's hyperbolic for rhetoric effect - illustrating a point instead of spelling it out. The point being that unless you're willing to bite the bullet and legislate these things, perhaps there isn't a real injustice and the criticism is blown out of proportion. Cat Mattress posted:That was a devil's advocate point by the way. Question was "which harm does Azalea actually do" and taking an opportunity is pretty much it. Point is that you can't prove that it's harmful, because that'd require to have silly stuff like labels having a quota of rap artists they'll sign up and not one more, this kind of things. Racism is a question of opportunities open to some and denied to others. So when you have an opportunity that is open to you, and you see it taken by someone who had other opportunities open to them, but that are closed to you, it hurts. It's a "we don't even have that" moment which makes it cultural appropriation; as opposed to my silly counter-example of appropriating symphonic orchestra. (On this topic...) I can fully understand why it would annoy some people in that sense, but then the real issue here is the symbolism behind Azalea's background. Yet it's directed at her person because... I don't know, it's easy? It's not at all clear-cut how much her white skin helped this Aussie break into an American genre dominated by black performers. Maybe critics don't entirely lack a point, but I don't see what that point would have to do with Azalea directly.
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Dec 3, 2015 01:11
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I'm not quoting everything, because it's too long, so I'll take the argument to its source. The initial illustration of white appropriation was made to a white guy getting better at a black guy(?) at break dancing and said black(?) guy not being mad about that. I showed him that this was not what people were referring to. I gave the example of Eminem, who got better at rapping than a lot of black people, but also raps about -his- life, and dresses and acts how -he- did when growing up. You may argue that his upbringing, etc. involved appropriation as well, but the analogy stands for the sake of the argument, because he's not putting on a "black" mask - he's just very good at a black popularized skill that he got popular for while rapping about his personal experiences and dressing/acting as he always has. That's generally not what the issue is focused on. The counterexample was given of Iggy, in which OTHER people dressed her up in "urban clothes" (edit: rumored, to be fair - at best, she just appropriated it herself) wrote her lyrics (allegedly), molded her image, etc. and she gets more popular for it than most of the people that she drew this image/style from. That's generally what is being railed against, and there's a big difference between the two. That's basically the difference between a kind of osmosis which comes from absorbing things from different cultures and an ethnicity and naturally expressing yourself from the things you picked up, and someone just putting on a mask, benefiting from it, and being able to take it off at any time. I can really love mariachi music because I heard it a lot growing up and play it myself, which is different from putting on a big fake moustache, poncho and hat and dancing around in the streets for attention - then taking all of that off when I get home. Darko fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 01:16
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lite frisk posted:It's hyperbolic for rhetoric effect - illustrating a point instead of spelling it out. The point being that unless you're willing to bite the bullet and legislate these things, perhaps there isn't a real injustice and the criticism is blown out of proportion. lite frisk posted:I can fully understand why it would annoy some people in that sense, but then the real issue here is the symbolism behind Azalea's background. Yet it's directed at her person because... I don't know, it's easy? It's not at all clear-cut how much her white skin helped this Aussie break into an American genre dominated by black performers. Not clear to you. But since you're demonstrably incapable of listening to minority opinions on this issue, and also demonstrably not too good at thinking in general, your confusion is not exactly damning.
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Dec 3, 2015 01:17
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As this thread helpfully illustrates, a panicky obsession with the minutiae of racism to the exclusion of addressing deeper issues is a hallmark of American white (internet) politics, and is preferable to the alternative only because the alternative is denying that racism is present at all, or even suggesting that it is in some sense moral and good (c.f. Reddit).
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Dec 3, 2015 01:22
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"Cultural appropriation" is easily one of the dumbest, most tumblerina phrases you'll ever see. Anyone who thinks it it a serious issue has apparently never done even an ounce of research of how society and culture works. Oh no a white person is twerking what will we ever dooooooo. Oh no a white rock band is using elements of jazz  It's poo poo for people with way too much time on their hands to worry about while doing nothing of actual value to fixing inequality. It should be no surprise that you will basically never hear about it outside of the internet. tsa fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 01:29
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Quorum posted:Were your ears burning. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 3, 2015 01:31
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tsa posted:"Cultural appropriation" is easily one of the dumbest, most tumblerina phrases you'll ever see. Anyone who thinks it it a serious issue has apparently never done even an ounce of research of how society and culture works. Outside of black people talking about it even before Elvis, no you never hear it outside of the Internet.
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Dec 3, 2015 01:33
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:People already answered that you twat, including me, so how about you read before posting. Nice sexist language here. Not!!! Darko posted:Outside of black people talking about it even before Elvis, no you never hear it outside of the Internet. Honest question: do you understand how music works? People have been "appropriating" since the literal beginning of music I hope this helps.
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Dec 3, 2015 01:33
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVq9t5TnWjo
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Dec 3, 2015 01:35
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tsa posted:Nice sexist language here. Not!!! Honest question, do you understand how the music industry worked for most of the 20th century where they refused to promote black people but instead gave their music to white people, and black people had to make their own labels to break out into any major success despite that? And even still, people like Vanilla Ice were manufactured to piggyback in lieu of other artists?
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Dec 3, 2015 01:36
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tsa posted:Nice sexist language here. Not!!! Now lite frisk, if I want to tell tsa "no u," do I need to pursue this at a federal level or would a referendum from my state senate be sufficient?
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Dec 3, 2015 01:37
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I was having a pleasant day at work when all of a sudden I heard Nit Grit on the radio sampling a marvin gaye track. I just had to go have that instant because I could not stop shaking from pure rage. Using previous elements of music to create new ones, who the gently caress did they think they were?
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Dec 3, 2015 01:39
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Every time I see a baby crying about his leaky diaper I scold him for appropriating white culture.
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Dec 3, 2015 01:41
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Darko posted:Honest question, do you understand how the music industry worked for most of the 20th century where they refused to promote black people but instead gave their music to white people, and black people had to make their own labels to break out into any major success despite that? And even still, people like Vanilla Ice were manufactured to piggyback in lieu of other artists? Vanilla Ice was nearly signed to Def Jam thanks to Chuck D e/ On the basis of Ice's good looks and dance moves, Public Enemy tried to convince their producer, Hank Shocklee, to sign Ice to Def Jam,[26] but Ice later signed a contract with SBK Records in 1990. SBK remixed and re-recorded Hooked under the title To the Extreme. The reissue contained new artwork and music.[27] According to Ice, SBK paid him to adopt a more commercial, conventional appearance. This led Ice to later regret his business agreements with SBK.[28]
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Dec 3, 2015 01:44
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Darko posted:Black women straighten their hair en masse because mass media says that their actual hair grain looks like poo poo and the only way to be beautiful appropriates white people as much as possible. It's actually a pretty terrible thing that almost every "race" on earth goes through great pains (such as ruining their hair, the hours of preparation and maintenance) because the conglomerate of mainstream groups that became absorbed into the in power white umbrella told the rest of the world that they also happen to be the best looking. Even in daily practice, that's why things like Tinder don't really work well for (non Asian female) minorities, etc., those things are a constant reminder to them that they need to look more "white." Actually all of this has existed far before mass media or capitalism were even a thing. I submit again: people who talk about this almost always have 0 understanding of history. Like maybe they spend that much time because they like the look? No, of course there's a grand conspiracy involved.
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Dec 3, 2015 01:44
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how are we going to stop white people from rapping?
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Dec 3, 2015 01:45
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Whorelord posted:how are we going to stop white people from rapping? If they can't stand up to a round with Supernatural they've got no place in the business. They don't even have to win, they just have to make a passable effort and not poo poo themselves immediately.
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Dec 3, 2015 01:49
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:That is so mind-bogglingly stupid I just got dizzy for a second. Criticism isn't valid unless it leads to legislation? The gently caress? Man, I thought The Phantom Menace sucked but the bill died in committee so welp... Blown out of proportion =/= invalid. I see that trying to steer away from binary thinking when talking to you is a Sisyphean task, so I'm going to stop now. quote:Not clear to you. But since you're demonstrably incapable of listening to minority opinions on this issue, and also demonstrably not too good at thinking in general, your confusion is not exactly damning. "ur dum"
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Dec 3, 2015 01:52
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tsa posted:Actually all of this has existed far before mass media or capitalism were even a thing. I submit again: people who talk about this almost always have 0 understanding of history. yes, black parents told their daughters that their hair looked nappy and to straighten it to be "presentable" and guys preferring straight hair with black women happened in a bubble of liking the look and had nothing to do with outside social influences. They were all born with those opinions. There was a whole section of popular movie Malcom X drawn from his biography and documentary movies about black hair that go into this in more depth, but none of those things are real. Wait, when was media not a thing? Ancient egypt had media. Darko fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 01:56
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lite frisk posted:Blown out of proportion =/= invalid. I see that trying to steer away from binary thinking when talking to you is a Sisyphean task, so I'm going to stop now. I'm pretty sure "CRITICIZING IS THE SAME AS BANNING" would be the binary thinking here, precious. Your discomfort with criticism and protest as tools of social change is hilariously transparent. Thank the mighty spangled eagles that bore our founding fathers that I have the right to call you as loving stupid as you loving are. I don't even have to pass a law about it.
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Dec 3, 2015 02:01
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Phyzzle posted:Getting a fair wage is not morally equivalent to price gouging, but is it morally equivalent to getting a quality local school? I'd say they are roughly morally equivalent. So is it also absurd to blame people who vote for school funding inequities as racist? Look, you're not being clever, I can see what you're doing. It doesn't work because all your little 'twists' are making the same error, ignoring the actual conflicts involved. The transit workers are striking against the capital owners, that's their target. School funding people are attacking schools that are already underfunded, in desperate need of even the basic necessities. They aren't comparable, the presence of other parties and other power inequalities undermines whatever 'gotcha' point you're trying to make. Things that entrench existing power inequalities are bad, and when those power inequalities are racial they become racist. Tiny Brontosaurus posted:If black people ran the country and routinely murdered white people with the justification that "saxophone culture" was proof that they were violent, inhuman monsters and then put out wacky ironic saxophone videos to promote their car dealerships and state legislature campaigns then that sure as poo poo would be behavior worth criticizing. rudatron fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Dec 3, 2015 |
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Dec 3, 2015 03:57
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rudatron posted:Seems like the actual problem would be the dehumanization and use of violence against minorities, rather than stupid poo poo like declaring that some music/dance/hair is only appropriate to subgroups. "Sure, I'll grudgingly admit a problem exists, but god help you if you point out any symptoms of that problem."
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Dec 3, 2015 04:57
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Is this racist? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Americans
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Dec 3, 2015 05:09
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