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RACHET posted:Well if they were smart enough to break out of the intellectual prison that is religion on their own and become atheist then that's step forward. The point I was making was you don't have to be religious to be a bigot. 
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Dec 6, 2015 07:26
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^^^ Everyone's a bigot ^^^VitalSigns posted:"No all these Muslim scholars are wrong about their religion and I'm right." No one is right or wrong, its just that some interpretations are really round about and if you have to do that to spin your scripture to appease your critics then there's really a problem with the scripture.
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Dec 6, 2015 07:27
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Shaocaholica posted:No one is right or wrong, its just that some interpretations are really round about and if you have to do that to spin your scripture to appease your critics then there's really a problem with the scripture. Why is their interpretation the way Islamic states were actually governed for 1300 years and ISIS' brand of radicalism a recent geographically limited historical aberration then. I guess the Ottoman Empire just spent hundreds of years with a roundabout interpretation in a long-range plan to appease 21st century liberal critics right. E: And hey feel free to show how your and ISIS' interpretation is more logical and straightforward, I'm sure you can and you're not just talking out of your rear end. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 07:34 on Dec 6, 2015 |
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Dec 6, 2015 07:31
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Shaocaholica posted:Nah, its a self rectifying problem. Future generations of muslim children will be so repulsed by their parents 'scripture' that they will naturally leave the faith. So along with being a theological genius, you're also up-to-date on the most recent demographic trends but know better than the rest of us that suddenly Islam will stop growing and will evaporate. Care to enlighten us on when this will happen? Frankly, I don't believe you, I don't think you're so motivated to tell everyone how fundamentally wrong Islam is and yet you feel the best course of action is the long duree one. I bet you have better solutions than waiting 50 or 100 years. Come on, you can tell us.
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Dec 6, 2015 07:34
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VitalSigns posted:Why is their interpretation the way Islamic states were actually governed for 1300 years and ISIS' brand of radicalism a recent geographically limited historical aberration then. So basically your whole point is that it doesn't matter what the scripture says. History is all that counts? edit: And you would say the Ottoman Empire is a great example of Islamic interpretation? Something to hold up against IS? Shaocaholica fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Dec 6, 2015 |
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Dec 6, 2015 07:35
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Shaocaholica posted:So basically your whole point is that it doesn't matter what the scripture says. History is all that counts? You haven't demonstrated anything you've claimed about scripture, and not only is your bullshit not the way it was interpreted historically, but over a hundred of the most prominent Sunni scholars have refuted it and your only response is "nuh uh, you can't believe them". I found the English translation of the letter for you please substantiate your claims by demonstrating how their interpretations are all dishonest circumlocutions and ISIS's sermon withstands their rebuttals. Shaocaholica posted:edit: And you would say the Ottoman Empire is a great example of Islamic interpretation? Something to hold up against IS? Ah yes, the Ottoman Caliph was no true Muslim, because he didn't agree with ISIS. How circular.
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Dec 6, 2015 07:42
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Make concrete specific criticisms and contrast that with specific things said that don't have a comparable biblical analogue. No nebulous wishy-washy bullshit for intellectual lightweights.
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Dec 6, 2015 07:43
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TildeATH posted:I bet you have better solutions than waiting 50 or 100 years. Come on, you can tell us. Ok, you got me. I fully support the mutant registration act. #Kelly84
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Dec 6, 2015 07:43
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Shaocaholica posted:Ok, you got me. I fully support the mutant registration act. #Kelly84 Ha ha let's make jokes while real politicians are actually proposing real registration acts for real Muslims! And not just them "practicing" Muslims but the ethnic Muslims, too! You espouse a distorted narrative but want to divorce yourself from the consequences of such a narrative.
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Dec 6, 2015 07:52
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VitalSigns posted:I found the English translation of the letter for you please substantiate your claims by demonstrating how their interpretations are all dishonest circumlocutions and ISIS's sermon withstands their rebuttals. Can I be at least lazy about it? quote:6. Te Killing of Innocents: God < says in the Qur’an: ‘And do not slay the So basically the part where they say killing innocent people is bad quotes 3 verses all with vague exceptions. How convenient. Shaocaholica fucked around with this message at 08:05 on Dec 6, 2015 |
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Dec 6, 2015 08:01
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Shaocaholica posted:Can I be at least lazy about it? You new to this religion thing? That's kinda how it works.
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Dec 6, 2015 10:11
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Shaocaholica posted:Can I be at least lazy about it? It's pretty funny that you slam the Koran for this, bolding yours quote:And do not slay the soul [whose life] God has made inviolable, except with due cause because "due cause" is vague The Fifth Amendment posted:No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law And you're mad about a holy book prescribing death for odd things. Look at this savage religion everyone, it can't coexist with modernity. Executing people for vague reasons: " Say to the Israelites: ‘Anyone who curses their God will be held responsible; anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death." Leviticus 24:15-16 "If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid." Deuteronomy 21:18-21 Executing people for stupid reasons: "Whenever the tabernacle is to move, the Levites are to take it down, and whenever the tabernacle is to be set up, the Levites shall do it. Anyone else who approaches it is to be put to death." Numbers 1:51 I could go on, but you obviously don't know what you're talking about and are just trying to read in the worst possible meaning you can think of while skimming, and pissing your pants in fear over it. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 10:38 on Dec 6, 2015 |
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Dec 6, 2015 10:32
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Speaking of Shots fired, Erik son of Erik decided that a levelheaded OpEd about the NY front-page opinion piece on Gun Control was for pussies and instead tweeted a picture of the paper after he had unloaded into it.
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Dec 6, 2015 10:36
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TildeATH posted:Ha ha let's make jokes while real politicians are actually proposing real registration acts for real Muslims! Do you actually think that will ever translate into even the tiniest amount of actual policy?
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Dec 6, 2015 10:52
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Sword and Sceptre posted:Do you actually think that will ever translate into even the tiniest amount of actual policy? Does it matter? There is a major political frontrunner advocating it and people support him, and his sort of cronies currently control the House. Why couldn't he pass something like it?
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Dec 6, 2015 11:55
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Sword and Sceptre posted:Do you actually think that will ever translate into even the tiniest amount of actual policy?
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Dec 6, 2015 12:17
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You guys think you're so hot looking at what Muslims think about their own religion, but have you considered that there is a metaphysical essence of True Islam that exists independently of anything actual people believe, and that my amateur scholarship of seventh-century Arab literature can reveal this? And that this essence, despite being a magic ghost impervious to influences from the physical world, nonetheless controls the behaviour of real people like in the movie Poltergeist?
Peel fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Dec 6, 2015 |
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Dec 6, 2015 13:05
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Sword and Sceptre posted:Do you actually think that will ever translate into even the tiniest amount of actual policy? Why wouldn't it. First of all there's precedent. Every time Trump says this stuff he gets more popular, and the other candidates are following suit. If he somehow got elected (big if, but it could happen if he gets the nomination and then an economic collapse or terrorist attack happens before the election and destroys the credibility of the Democrats), why wouldn't he try to follow through on the promises that made him popular, he wants to get beat off primary challengers and get elected right?
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Dec 6, 2015 14:08
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tsa posted:Yea I'm sure any idiot can get a doctorate, they just hand those things out like toilet paper these days. And who hasn't been the director of pediatric neurosurgery at Hopkins, any stupid fucker can get that job. Poverty and poor education drive the on the ground recruiting efforts for ISIS, AQ, ect. In the actual countries that host bases for these terror groups. The "it's not actually an economic thing" meme is stupid because it points to attacks occuring in the west like they are indicative of a trend rather than outliers. The vast majority of terror attacks take place in the third world, and they are committed by people just as poor and ill educated as then average third worlder.
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Dec 6, 2015 14:20
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Venom Snake posted:Poverty and poor education drive the on the ground recruiting efforts for ISIS, AQ, ect. In the actual countries that host bases for these terror groups. The "it's not actually an economic thing" meme is stupid because it points to attacks occuring in the west like they are indicative of a trend rather than outliers. So, uhm, jihadists are "average" with respect to education and income both in the 3rd world and in the West? Doesn't that support the argument that jihadists are not economic outliers but recruited from the center of the population and other, non economic factors, explain why they become jihadist in the first place? Otherwise whole 3rd world countries would have to blow themselves up collectively as they all qualify as poor and ill educated enough?
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Dec 6, 2015 14:38
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archangelwar posted:Two centuries ago, the Islamic Caliphate of the Ottoman Empire legalized homosexuality. I studied the Ottoman Empire in university and it was a pretty amazing thing. I'd have much rather been a Christian in the Ottoman Empire than a Christian anywhere else in the world, even in Christian-dominated countries.
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Dec 6, 2015 14:48
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GaussianCopula posted:So, uhm, jihadists are "average" with respect to education and income both in the 3rd world and in the West? Doesn't that support the argument that jihadists are not economic outliers but recruited from the center of the population and other, non economic factors, explain why they become jihadist in the first place? Otherwise whole 3rd world countries would have to blow themselves up collectively as they all qualify as poor and ill educated enough? When the economic center of your country is "dirt poor in a shack" as opposed to "living on the streets or in a field half the year" being at the economic center still means in the long run your poor and not well educated. Economic degradation is absolutely a massive driving factor for terrorism and conflict in the third world (talking about the ME and Africa here); it's ISIS main driving factor. Radical Islam is just a marketing technique.
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Dec 6, 2015 15:10
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archangelwar posted:Two centuries ago, the Islamic Caliphate of the Ottoman Empire legalized homosexuality. It was legal in Ancient Greece too. I'm not sure what this is supposed to contribute to a debate over Islam, given the fact that the Ottoman Empire was not a Islamic theocracy but a absolutistic monarchy which happened to believe in Islam to a degree. I'd probably go as far as calling it an multi-cultural Empire and not Islamic empire, given that their success based a lot on local autonomy and Quanun law, in contrast to enforcing the Sharia everywhere without exception and one of the more powerful factions within the Empire were the Janissaries, who were Christians.
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Dec 6, 2015 15:12
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Ddraig posted:I studied the Ottoman Empire in university and it was a pretty amazing thing. I'd have much rather been a Christian in the Ottoman Empire than a Christian anywhere else in the world, even in Christian-dominated countries. It appears that my Euro history education on the Ottoman Empire was sorely lacking. The one thing I remember about it is a story about the head of state energetically refusing a new steam engine that was advertised at "60 revolutions a minute", on the grounds that his military couldn't possibly deal with the degree of insurrection caused by that infernal machine. Now I am questioning my otherwise-amazing teacher.
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Dec 6, 2015 15:14
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Grundulum posted:It appears that my Euro history education on the Ottoman Empire was sorely lacking. The one thing I remember about it is a story about the head of state energetically refusing a new steam engine that was advertised at "60 revolutions a minute", on the grounds that his military couldn't possibly deal with the degree of insurrection caused by that infernal machine. Now I am questioning my otherwise-amazing teacher. Given that he was talking about steam engines he was talking about the Ottoman Empire in the 19th and early 20th century, at which point it had become a shadow of its former self.
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Dec 6, 2015 15:21
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VitalSigns posted:It's pretty funny that you slam the Koran for this, bolding yours Way to miss the point. The due process part just makes that passage a weak argument for the point they were trying to make granted its the strongest of the 3 they used. It's not the specific examples of punishment that set these texts apart, those can all be more or less contextualized to historical record. Its the supporting passages that make them applicable in modern times. Here's some of my lazy work from my 5th grade religious studios class: "You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah . If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient." "There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often." Which kind of elevates all those verses above just historical record. Sure some crazies will try to follow those passages but they won't have the supporting passages to point to when people call them out.
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Dec 6, 2015 16:53
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Sword and Sceptre posted:Do you actually think that will ever translate into even the tiniest amount of actual policy? Great, now we've got one guy lecturing us all on true Islam and another guy telling us that a demagogue arguing to register all Muslims and leading the polls for his party's nomination isn't something to worry about. Pray, knowledgable Qadi, what level of political rhetoric is acceptable to cite as worrisome? Or is all rhetoric acceptable and we are not allowed to complain until registration actually occurs? Or is registration acceptable and we're not allowed to complain until internment? Or is internment acceptable and we're not allowed to complain until exile? Because you know and we obviously don't, I find it very selfish of you not sharing your learned wisdom with the rest of us.
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Dec 6, 2015 17:05
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Shaocaholica posted:Way to miss the point. The due process part just makes that passage a weak argument for the point they were trying to make granted its the strongest of the 3 they used. People have shown you a huge number of examples of secular and tolerant Muslim regimes in history. (The freaking Ottoman Caliphate, the protector of Medina and Mecca, was even one these examples.) How are you still arguing that Muslims can't create a secular society? How are you doing this? 
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Dec 6, 2015 17:22
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waitwhatno posted:People have shown you a huge number of examples of secular and tolerant Muslim regimes in history. (The freaking Ottoman Caliphate, the protector of Medina and Mecca, was even one these examples.) How are you still arguing that Muslims can't create a secular society? How are you doing this? I don't see what a 'secular and tolerant Muslim regime' has to do with the flaws of Islamic scripture? Those are 2 different topics. TildeATH posted:Great, now we've got one guy lecturing us all on true Islam and another guy telling us that a demagogue arguing to register all Muslims and leading the polls for his party's nomination isn't something to worry about. Maybe along with muslim registration, we can also grant them limited freedoms (such as the right to worship), and treat as second-class citizens. They should be forbidden to carry weapons or ride on horseback, their houses could not overlook those of true citizens, and their religious practices would have to defer to those of christians and jews, in addition to various other legal limitations. A certain number of muslim boys should be periodically conscripted before they reached adolescence and be brought up as atheists. *copied from wikipedia to save you the trouble of calling me on it*
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Dec 6, 2015 17:41
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What do you suggest as a solution to the flaws of Islamic scripture?
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Dec 6, 2015 17:48
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Leofish posted:What do you suggest as a solution to the flaws of Islamic scripture? I suggest this.
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Dec 6, 2015 18:01
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Leofish posted:What do you suggest as a solution to the flaws of Islamic scripture? Well since the text is immutable, the only other option is to leave the faith.
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Dec 6, 2015 18:52
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Leofish posted:What do you suggest as a solution to the flaws of Islamic scripture? Ignore them.
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Dec 6, 2015 19:00
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Shaocaholica posted:Well since the text is immutable, the only other option is to leave the faith. Why not just be a secular and tolerant Muslim, like other secular and tolerant Muslims?
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Dec 6, 2015 19:15
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You do realize that the large proportion of Islamic scripture is in the form of the Hadith, that are a subject of much study among Islamic scholars? Actually in most cases the Hadith are said to have precedence over the Quran. So if your flaws are found solely in the Quran then it seems quite a lot, if not most, Muslims would actually agree with you.
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Dec 6, 2015 19:16
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Ddraig posted:You do realize that the large proportion of Islamic scripture is in the form of the Hadith, that are a subject of much study among Islamic scholars? He's already annoying enough as a Quran scholar, let's not make it worse by having him come back and discuss Bukhari and Muslim.
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Dec 6, 2015 19:57
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Ok you guys win. Looks like none of us are qualified in the subject, myself being the worst I'll concede. Let's just roll with the opinions of totally unbiased practicing scholars on the matter.
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Dec 6, 2015 20:16
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Edit: not worth it.
Fizzil fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Dec 6, 2015 |
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Dec 6, 2015 20:37
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this thread, irl https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEnWw_lH4tQ
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Dec 6, 2015 20:59
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My guess as to why people like cloacaholica exist is a that they grew up in fundamentalist environments themselves. The literal, pedantic interpretation of holy text ... the fanatical clinging to a specific interpretation of these texts as the correct, infallible truth. This smells like they are projecting their own hosed up religious experiences unto others. Did you grow up in a fundi home, holica?
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Dec 6, 2015 21:06
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