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Main Paineframe posted:Ethnic or religious groups shouldn't be oppressed, disenfranchised, or discriminated against, regardless of the ethnic or religious makeup of the state. Just as I oppose Israeli oppression of Palestinians under both formal and de facto Israeli control, I would oppose any similar oppression of Jews by hypothetical future Israeli Palestinians. I would dearly hope that this is not a controversial statement, and that everyone in this thread could agree on at least that much. (and if anyone disagrees, please kindly get the gently caress out) What about the previous oppression of Jews by Palestinian arabs? Do the Jews of the arab world get to return to their homes and have their property returned to them before or after you require them to compensate the families of those who stole their property and livelihoods?
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Dec 23, 2015 20:29
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My Imaginary GF posted:What about the previous oppression of Jews by Palestinian arabs? Do the Jews of the arab world get to return to their homes and have their property returned to them before or after you require them to compensate the families of those who stole their property and livelihoods? it would be pretty horrible if those people ended up stateless refugees and spent decades, then generations, trying to get back a fraction of what they lost
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Dec 23, 2015 20:35
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zeal posted:it would be pretty horrible if those people ended up stateless refugees and spent decades, then generations, trying to get back a fraction of what they lost It's quite easy to prevent that loss: keep Israel a Jewish state and denounce anyone who would make millions of Jews stateless refugees, like Hitler and Stalin did in Eastern Europe, as antisemitic in their objective. When millions of Jews are made stateless, history shows that before Israel, they are killed. After Israel, they have refuge and a nation willing to accept them and allow them to worship freely. BDS would make millions of Jews stateless once more and invite another holocaust in its goals. While BDS is not open in its antisemitism, its goals can result in no other conceivable course.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:39
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My Imaginary GF posted:It's quite easy to prevent that loss: keep Israel a Jewish state and denounce anyone who would make millions of Jews stateless refugees, like Hitler and Stalin did in Eastern Europe, as antisemitic in their objective. Who are you imagining is trying to do this? Because this is another one of those straw men you invent whole cloth throughout the thread.
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Dec 23, 2015 20:44
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"We have to oppress population A, otherwise they might oppress population B!"My Imaginary GF posted:What about the previous oppression of Jews by Palestinian arabs? As history showed, the Jews turned to oppress the Arabs as soon as they got in a position of force to do so. Since you and TIC are arguing that preemptive oppression is a Good Thing, then you have to conclude that it was a good, necessary, and justified thing. If you claim it wasn't, then you cannot also claim that continued oppression of the Palestinians is a good thing. At least, you cannot do so without having to rely on racism. Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 21:30
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Salt of the earth
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Dec 23, 2015 23:27
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Just out of curiosity, how many Israeli homes have been destroyed due to their occupants being suspected of terrorism?
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Dec 23, 2015 23:58
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A Terrible Person posted:Just out of curiosity, how many Israeli homes have been destroyed due to their occupants being suspected of terrorism? Most of the settlers in Gaza lost their homes. Israel is at their Manifest Destiny. Its very American of them to desire the west lands to be liberated for the future of all jewish peoples.
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Dec 24, 2015 00:21
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Cat Mattress posted:As history showed, the Jews turned to oppress the Arabs as soon as they got in a position of force to do so. Since you and TIC are arguing that preemptive oppression is a Good Thing, then you have to conclude that it was a good, necessary, and justified thing. The modern history of the middle east has an alarmingly common pattern of disenfranchised groups retaliating against the previously ruling group as soon as they get the levers of power, and attempting to consolidate their power rather than form a representative government. If Israel allowed a Palestinian return in the way most Palestinian activists envision it (it wouldn't be a token number) and allowed Palestinians equal representation, and otherwise stopped its efforts to ensure a Jewish majority, the almost certain outcome would be Jews becoming a political minority within a relatively short timeframe. Given the almost universally poor treatment and disenfranchisement suffered by minorities in the middle east, (including, yes, in Israel) it is quite reasonable for Jewish Israelis to believe that their rights would not be respected should such a situation come to pass, especially in light of the irredentist and anti-Semitic themes in Palestinian rhetoric. While it is possible to point to South Africa as an example of a relatively peaceful transition to unified a post-colonial government, it must be pointed out that, 1) it was an outlier, and 2) in neighboring Zimbabwe, the post-colonial government almost immediately abrogated the power sharing agreement meant to protect the rights of the white minority, crashed the economy, suffers from wide-spread corruption, and did/does nothing to protect the rights of minorities from violence and property seizure by the new ruling class. It's the worst case scenario Israelis rightly fear. While it is quite reasonable to argue from a moral and normative perspective that Israel should stop its attempts to ensure that the electorate is Jewish-majority by shutting Palestinians out of political power, it's a little disingenuous to refuse to engage the reality that would be the most likely outcome in such a situation. I can see why people would be reluctant to engage with this point, since it would require arguing either that a government with a Jewish minority would never arise, that a government with a Jewish minority would protect Jewish citizens' rights, in contrast to every other government in recent regional history, or that Jewish citizens have a moral imperative to accept whatever outcome happens, no matter how terrible.
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Dec 24, 2015 00:30
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My Imaginary GF posted:What about the previous oppression of Jews by Palestinian arabs? Do the Jews of the arab world get to return to their homes and have their property returned to them before or after you require them to compensate the families of those who stole their property and livelihoods? I didn't say anything about compensation. However, I'm completely in support of Arab Jews who were forcibly expelled from their home countries being offered a right of return, and have never claimed otherwise. I'm not sure what part of "Ethnic or religious groups shouldn't be oppressed, disenfranchised, or discriminated against, regardless of the ethnic or religious makeup of the state" is hard for you to understand? Yes, I realize you're trying to bait people into saying something you can construe as biased or unfair against Jews so you can accuse the whole thread of being anti-semitic, but it's really tiresome and I wish you'd stop!
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Dec 24, 2015 00:35
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LeoMarr posted:Most of the settlers in Gaza lost their homes. If I recall correctly, Israel abandoned Gaza and withdrew their settlers long ago. I meant more along the lines of their homes being bombed or bulldozed due to some illegal action or incitement, especially when said homes are still being occupied.
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Dec 24, 2015 00:48
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Dead Reckoning posted:
Speaking of political realities, while many BDS types and Palestinian activists push for a right for Palestinians who hold the status of being refugees to return to their land and be able to live as citizens, it doesn't follow that we would see Jews in Israel losing all power the same way as whites did in Zimbabwe (mentioned only because it's the worst case scenario talked about). Jews in Israel would still control the military and most or all private institutions as well as holding most positions in the Civil Service. Assuming they went in with the barest minimum of controls on non-Jewish political activity (as in, party voting for laws and constitutional changes in the legislature), the worst case scenario is probably military coup by the IDF before you get to a Zimbabwe situation. If I was being pessimistic, I'd say you're far more likely to see Israel turning into somewhere like Malaysia if you saw a large influx of Palestinians and Israel become a multi-ethnic state. Now Malaysia's certainly got a lot of issues but genocide isn't really one of them. I'll keep the post single pointed because these threads have a habit of certain posters latching onto a secondary or tertiary point and only responding to that.
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Dec 24, 2015 01:52
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Dead Reckoning posted:I don't think anyone is arguing that Israeli policy towards the Palestinians is a good thing. The way I understand the argument is this: I think your view is unrealistic and kind of avoids engaging with the issue to the extend of coming to a conclusion. I say it's unrealistic because I disagree with your assessment. Based on 8.2 million Israelis with one fifth being arabs and 5 million refugees it's not going to be a short time to get a Jewish minority as you claim. The only way this would come about is with a 100% take-up of the right of return and 100% of the refugees returning to Israel rather than to Palestine. In reality only a fraction of the eligible refugees will return and some of those will be going to the new Palestinian state. The demographic problem, even with a lot more refugees, is still a long-term one - long enough that if we assume all the demographics remain the same then it corrects itself because the Haredi birth rate of a ridiculous 5.0% outstrips the arab birth rate of 2.2 by far. Based on the research done into the peace process, the above situation isn't even really a concern though. The ideal moral solution is very different from the pragmatic solutions that have been offfered and that we'll realistically end up with. The right of return is already an area where the Palestinians have shown willingness to compromise massively to achieve peace. In Camp David Arafat was willing to accept a token amount of returnees on the basis that the majority of them would be able to make homes in the newly formed Palestine which would be good enough even if it wasn't what they all wanted. You keep on saying Palestinian but refugees returning to live in Israel will , by definition, be Israeli and you don't seem to have considered how the Arabs who were part of the British Mandate came to see themselves as Israeli in the first place. They weren't eternally Israeli, they've come to see themselves as Israeli after years of living in a state which is biased against them but still provides a good degree of welfare, protection, opportunity in comparison to neighbouring countries and so they've become absorbed into the consumerist society where they worry about the mortgages and what's on TV and if they're going to order in takeaway or what have you. If you want refugees to assimilate, the answer isn't to separate them out and place restrictions on them and make them leave family members behind because Israel can't trust Arabs. If they are included in Israeli society more fully than the Arabs of '48 and '67, why would their integration be any slower or worse? The only possible reason seems to be because of all the war crimes and other awful actions committed by Israel, which seems to just be yet another good reason for Israel to stop committing them. "This national group might not like us for all the atrocities we're committing against them" is not a reasonable rationale to continue said atrocities. Arabs are marginalised within Israeli society. Even the US State Department, a government office of Israel's closest ally that is consistently biased in favour of Israel, calls Israel out on this. This is going to be a lot harder with a larger minority of arabs. The real issue isn't "oh no those perfidious Palestinians are trying to take over the state" it's that with a stronger demographic representation they might start to want a non negligible effect on the running of the country, which is actually a perfectly reasonably request. The only way that a civil disorder seems to automatically follow from this is if Israel continues to try to marginalise and discriminate against them even if they made a much more sizeable percentage of the body politic, making it more important to stop this from happening by ensuring in a peace deal that Israel is inclusive and egalitarian (something BDS calls for). I don't have a problem with this as I don't believe in stripping people of their fundamental rights and I simultaneously hold that refugees should be able to return home and people should be able to democratically decide the future of their country. If this is a problem for anyone then it's one that can easily be solved by a) Israel not trying to steal as much Palestinian land as possible so that when refugees can return home, they'll be returning to the Palestinian state rather than annexed land that is now part of the Israeli states and b) Not using the hypno ray that makes every single refugee decide to return to Israel and then vote for its dissolution which is obviously involved in this scenario for the numbers to make any sense. I think I read in one of the books on the Camp David peace process that about 60% of refugees would consider returning. That was obviously a while ago but I think any expectation that anywhere close to 100% of refugees would return is absurd. The reason I say you've avoided engaging with it is you've presented these hurdles, but at the same time you haven't presented a suggestion or alternative. What's meant to be the answer if not a right of return. The status quo? That's inherently unreasonable as it relies on an unproven fear of a future threat of violence to allow all of the violence and suffering that is carrying on now to continue. I mean what's the worry. That people will die? That there might be ethnic cleansing? Torture? People imprisoned without trial? denied basic human rights? Your unproven worst case scenario seems to be no worse then what's already happening so I don't think the potential things could not go well should stop us from advocating for people's basic human rights..
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Dec 24, 2015 02:32
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Dead Reckoning posted:Given the almost universally poor treatment and disenfranchisement suffered by minorities in the middle east, (including, yes, in Israel) it is quite reasonable for Jewish Israelis to believe that their rights would not be respected should such a situation come to pass, especially in light of the irredentist and anti-Semitic themes in Palestinian rhetoric. So you're saying that it is good and justified for Israel to oppress and disenfranchise Palestinians, because if they don't, there's a possibility that it might maybe someday lead to Palestinians oppressing and disenfranchising Jews, which would be horrible and unjustifiable? The only moral outcome is for nobody to be oppressed, regardless of who is in power. The way to obtain that is with reconciliation and with a strong constitutional framework that prevents the majority (regardless of which group it ends up being) from abusing minorities. Oppression as a tool to prevent oppression is just a convenient lie used by oppressors to justify continuing to oppress even after oppression becomes recognized by the society as a bad thing; its inherent hypocrisy, obvious moral bankruptcy, and built-in implicit racist assumptions render it utterly incapable of sincerity. Besides, the Palestinian side isn't the only one with groups spewing hateful rhetoric. Just look at this photo!  Just looking at it, what would you think of it? A Hamas militant getting ready to strike? An Arab protester in the midst of a riot? After all, that's clearly a Molotov cocktail in one hand, and if you look real closely, you can see the knife in the other. What other context could that possibly be in? Well, as it turns out, the person in that photo was Jewish, and it was taken at a loving wedding. http://www.timesofisrael.com/clip-shows-far-right-wedding-goers-celebrating-dawabsha-killings/ quote:Footage released on Wednesday showed dozens of young Israeli right-wing extremists, said to be linked to the suspected perpetrators of the Dawabsha family murder, celebrating the killing at a wedding last week. The images in the clip immediately sparked wide condemnation.
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Dec 24, 2015 14:51
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"I have told hold this man's head under the water, because if I don't he may hold my head under!" Meanwhile the best solution to both get the gently caress out of the water.
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Dec 24, 2015 14:58
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If you justify Israel's oppression of Palestinians, you have to argue either that oppression is justified in and of itself, or that some populations are intrinsically deserving of being oppressed. Spoiler: either reasoning basically makes you Hitler.
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Dec 24, 2015 15:20
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Main Paineframe posted:
I saw that video this morning. The photo? Its the infant from that arson attack.
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Dec 24, 2015 15:36
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Main Paineframe posted:Well, as it turns out, the person in that photo was Jewish, and it was taken at a loving wedding. Most harmless stabbing in last 3 months. Boo loving hoo.
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Dec 24, 2015 19:28
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Lady Morgaga posted:Most harmless stabbing in last 3 months. Boo loving hoo. If they'd been a different shade, dollars to doughnuts there'd be some houses getting bulldozed right now.
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Dec 24, 2015 20:29
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Lady Morgaga posted:Most harmless stabbing in last 3 months. Boo loving hoo. "Oh, they only stabbed a baby in effigy, no big deal"
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Dec 24, 2015 21:57
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Lady Morgaga posted:Most harmless stabbing in last 3 months. Boo loving hoo. Please leave.
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Dec 24, 2015 22:11
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Lady Morgaga posted:Most harmless stabbing in last 3 months. Boo loving hoo. Yeah. An infant. Get the gently caress out.
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Dec 24, 2015 22:14
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CommieGIR posted:Yeah. An infant. Get the gently caress out. In actual news, two non-photographic humans were stabbed to death in Israel recently http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/24/world/middleeast/israel-jerusalem-palestinian-stabbing.html?ribbon-ad-idx=7&rref=world/middleeast quote:JERUSALEM — Two Palestinian assailants stabbed two Israeli Jews, one fatally, near a normally bustling entrance to the Old City of Jerusalem on Wednesday, and were shot by Israeli border police officers at the scene, the police said. And in related news http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/15/world/middleeast/palestinian-rams-car-into-crowd-of-israelis-at-jerusalem-bus-stop.html quote:JERUSALEM — A Palestinian resident of East Jerusalem rammed a car into a crowd of Israelis at a Jerusalem bus stop on Monday, according to the Israeli police, injuring about a dozen of them, including an 18-month-old baby. Just gonna go ahead and point out that anyone who thinks stabbing a picture is worse than stabbing actual people to death is probably a morally loathsome human being.
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Dec 24, 2015 22:46
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The Insect Court posted:And in related news Not going to bother reading the article because it was posted by TIS, but what are the chances that a purely accidental car wreck involving a Palestinian is not going to be interpreted as a terror attack by the Israeli media? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 25, 2015 00:10
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A Terrible Person posted:Not going to bother reading the article because it was posted by TIS, but what are the chances that a purely accidental car wreck involving a Palestinian is not going to be interpreted as a terror attack by the Israeli media? The Insect Court posted:Just gonna go ahead and point out that anyone who thinks stabbing a picture is worse than stabbing actual people to death is probably a morally loathsome human being. Lady Morgaga fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Dec 25, 2015 |
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Dec 25, 2015 00:16
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It was a picture of an actual person who had been burned to death, and ritually stabbing it in effigy was to celebrate this murder, but yeah, it's cool, it's something that sane and reasonable people do.
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Dec 25, 2015 00:21
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The Insect Court posted:Just gonna go ahead and point out that anyone who thinks stabbing a picture is worse than stabbing actual people to death is probably a morally loathsome human being. Well, it would be pretty hard for Jewish extremists to stab that particular baby to death, since it's already been burned to death at the hands of Jewish extremists. It's almost as if incitement, extremist groups, violent rhetoric, and actual violence are not unique attributes of a single ethnic group, but are in fact present on all sides!
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Dec 25, 2015 00:24
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Cat Mattress posted:It was a picture of an actual person who had been burned to death, and ritually stabbing it in effigy was to celebrate this murder, but yeah, it's cool, it's something that sane and reasonable people do. I did not call those settlers sane nor reasonable. Stabbing a picture though is very low on the list of things I get outraged about. Actual murders are somewhat higher.
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Dec 25, 2015 00:27
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Lady Morgaga posted:I did not call those settlers sane nor reasonable. Stabbing a picture though is very low on the list of things I get outraged about. Actual murders are somewhat higher. Like the multiple murder they're celebrating?
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Dec 25, 2015 00:28
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Baracula posted:Like the multiple murder they're celebrating?
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Dec 25, 2015 00:32
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Lady Morgaga posted:I did not call those settlers sane nor reasonable. Stabbing a picture though is very low on the list of things I get outraged about. Actual murders are somewhat higher. Yeah like that family that got burned to death, which they were celebrating.
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Dec 25, 2015 00:44
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Condemning these people for celebrating a murder? You have some nerve considering some Palestinians who have nothing to do with it are also murders why aren't you condemning them? - an idiot.
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Dec 25, 2015 00:46
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It's real cool how the new thread already is a mere 5 pages long and a new challenger has appeared in the quest to never, ever have anyone criticize israel on the internet and not be branded an antisemite. Goddamn, drop that poo poo in the social media cesspool where sentences like likeThe Insect Court posted:Just gonna go ahead and point out that anyone who thinks stabbing a picture is worse than stabbing actual people to death is probably a morally loathsome human being. and Lady Morgaga posted:Well it was perfectly innocent picture unlike those vile Zionists that undoubtedly deserved stabbing. will be welcomed and liked ad infinitum. It's totally a thing that in this world, when decrying multiple wrongs one must pick one, and only one to get especially froggy about otherwise you're just a hypocrite for thinking two things can be perhaps not equally, but in varying degrees hosed up. Thank.
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Dec 25, 2015 01:08
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Ultramega posted:It's totally a thing that in this world, when decrying multiple wrongs one must pick one, and only one to get especially froggy about otherwise you're just a hypocrite for thinking two things can be perhaps not equally, but in varying degrees hosed up. Thank. Are you really going to go this route when the major story in I/P conflict over the past several months have been the stabbings of Israelis? Are we going to pretend that out of the twenty-ish fatalities(and many more casualties) including several very recent ones the fact that the stabbing the usual suspects find time to condemn(and can't fit in any mention of any other) is the stabbing of a picture? Stabbing a picture is worse than stabbing a person. How on earth can anyone find that an arguable or outrageous statement?
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Dec 25, 2015 03:21
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The Insect Court posted:Are you really going to go this route when the major story in I/P conflict over the past several months have been the stabbings of Israelis? Are we going to pretend that out of the twenty-ish fatalities(and many more casualties) including several very recent ones the fact that the stabbing the usual suspects find time to condemn(and can't fit in any mention of any other) is the stabbing of a picture? Killing 100 people is worse than killing 20 people. How on earth can anyone find that an arguable or outrageous statement?
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Dec 25, 2015 03:34
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The Insect Court posted:Stabbing a picture is worse than stabbing a person. How on earth can anyone find that an arguable or outrageous statement? Stop arguing against points nobody is even attempting to make.
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Dec 25, 2015 04:27
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People are stabbed, shot, murdered in all sorts of different ways for all sorts of different and stupid reasons, all of the world everyday. Its a Bad Thing(tm) But CELEBRATING the death of an infant by ritualistically stabbing its image is a whooooole different level of hosed up. Its not like the act of poking a piece of paper with a picture is the actual Bad Thing, and trying to compare it with the above is missing the point, its the glee and festival of doing it, like pissing in urn of some guy's mum. With friends in public. There is a very very nasty mindset at play there.
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Dec 25, 2015 04:45
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Lady Morgaga posted:Yes. And slew of others that those particular people are not celebrating. "They are hosed up, but the Palestinians are more hosed up. I have no idea why the Palestinians are so hosed up" This is a really circular web you are spinning here. Don't forge the fact that while the Israeli Government is a-okay with quickly putting a Palestinian on trial for a legitimate murder, they are dragging their feet as hard as they can, including sending the PA the bill for the infant, and taking their time with the settlers who conducted the attack.
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Dec 25, 2015 05:10
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:Stop arguing against points nobody is even attempting to make. That would require anti-Zionists actually acknowledging the existence of Israeli victims of terrorism. Go do a search at nytimes.com or google news or any other major news site for "israel stabbing" articles from the past three months. Then tell me the only incident even worthy of mention in a thread titled "Of Israel and Palestine" involves the one in which a photograph is being stabbed. It's just like the meltdown in the last I/P thread over the video of the Palestinian teenager shot while trying to kill Israelis. An ugly display, but one that seemed to provoke an endless outflow of spittle flecked rage from the same posters who reacted with a near total indifference to the killings of Israelis. Hell, I'm not asking for equality here, just a simple plea that this thread not start with a pages long display of dehumanization directed against Israeli Jews. And yes, an intentional effort to ignore the existence of an entire class of (actual dead people) victims in favor of focusing exclusively on a (not alive or dead because a piece of paper) photograph counts. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Dec 25, 2015 |
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Dec 25, 2015 06:19
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The Insect Court posted:That would require anti-Zionists actually acknowledging the existence of Israeli victims of terrorism. This would be effective if you weren't a compulsive liar, and so insisted that this started on page 1. It would also be effective if you didn't ignore 120+ victims of terrorist violence, too.
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Dec 25, 2015 06:22
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