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shimmy shimmy posted:The US having a law on the books requiring them to veto Palestinian statehood or defund the UN for the past thirty years is definitely a twist I was not expecting, considering how long there's been talk about two state solutions. It doesn't allow funding if a group is given full membership to the UN that doesn't have the "internationally recognized attributes of statehood." Presumably in the case of a two-state solution Palestine would have those attributes and could be given membership without a problem. Sir John Falstaff fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 06:23
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The US conduct in this conflict has highlighted just how hypocritical they are. Along with most other western countries. We will have absolutely no moral ground to criticize human right abuses in the future. As the message is that we and our allies can do whatever we want no matter the human costs. There is no surprise if the global south, muslim countries and much of Asia are sick of this current world order and are looking for a change. Of course the west have always been hypocritical but it seems more obvious now. It is shameful.
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Apr 18, 2024 09:43
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Hryme posted:The US conduct in this conflict has highlighted just how hypocritical they are. Along with most other western countries. We will have absolutely no moral ground to criticize human right abuses in the future. As the message is that we and our allies can do whatever we want no matter the human costs. The US hasn't been able to claim such a moral ground since the Cold War started. But it will continue to do so.
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Apr 18, 2024 09:50
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Of course there's a law like that, lol. Was it passed on the back of the Oslo Accords? In any case, I bet with a modicum of creative thinking, one could easily argue that Palestine has enough 'internationally recognized attributes of statehood'.
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Apr 18, 2024 12:03
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Failed Imagineer posted:The US hasn't been able to claim such a moral ground since the Cold War started. But it will continue to do so. Other nations with big enough armies to matter on a world scale are arguably worse, so the US basically occupied the moral least low ground by of countries that can enforce their will on the global scene. Which is still deep down in a canyon.
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Apr 18, 2024 14:33
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The vote's been moved up according to the grauniad live blog:the guardian posted:The UN security council is due to vote on Thursday on a Palestinian bid for full UN membership, diplomats said, a move that Israel ally the US is expected to block because it would effectively recognise a Palestinian state, reports Reuters.
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Apr 18, 2024 14:50
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Paladinus posted:Of course there's a law like that, lol. Was it passed on the back of the Oslo Accords? In any case, I bet with a modicum of creative thinking, one could easily argue that Palestine has enough 'internationally recognized attributes of statehood'. It's a circular argument because under the relevant international law full UN recognition de jure validates a state as meeting those criteria. De facto: The requirements are a permanent territory, a permanent population, a government that nominally has authority over that territorial claim, and that that government can conduct international affairs. Note that the government being recognized doesn't need firm or exclusive control of its whole territory claim, though at least some portion must be under it's control (Gaza is not a stumbling block, even if interested parties would claim otherwise, and the settlements are a solvable issue as most states consider them non legitimate claims) states have been admitted while in civil wars, so neither is the existence of Hamas. The lack of recent elections has never mattered. The population is not just passing through. The government of the West bank already conducts international relations, and could assert more control over the territory. Israel's only choices would be war, or capitulation. Additionally being an independent state makes it way simpler for other parties to legally intervene, even if practicaly non of them actually would So it's likely several very interesting people are being intentionally wrong on the interpretation of the law. Also I know of at least 4 laws that cover this and suspect there are far more. Of those 4 all are either permanently waivable or dissolve automaticaly with full UN recognition. I couldn't find the one referencing Israelis approval being required.
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Apr 18, 2024 15:25
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Hryme posted:We will have absolutely no moral ground to criticize human right abuses in the future. I mean that's not really how it works. Just because the US is lovely in Gaza doesn't mean they're wrong in Ukraine. Just because Russia is lovely in Ukraine doesn't mean they're wrong in Gaza. It does mean you should take every complaint about human rights abuses with a grain of salt, but typically there is near-universal international criticism of the lovely actor. This doesn't usually actually lead to anything beneficial (see: Tigray, Sudan, Haiti, Myanmar) but honestly with most conflicts, there is a VERY substantial bias one way or the other. Even for Ukraine, the invasion was almost universally condemned. It's pretty rare to have major conflicts where both parties are ballpark-similarly-at-fault-dickwads (Azerbaijan/Armenia & US/Afghanistan are the only two that spring to mind post-2000; edit: also Yemen-Saudi Arabia, imo at least). Except for Iraq Invasion v2.0, I can't think of other major post-Cold War conflicts where the international community was significantly split in its assessment -- even if this assessment was just useless observation and "thoughts 'n prayers". I mean there probably are some, but Israel carpet bombing Gaza into the dust and still having support from many countries is pretty unusual.
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Apr 18, 2024 15:35
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WarpedLichen posted:What would being in the UN actually get for Palestine? Sometimes it's nice to be on the right side of a sternly worded letter.
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Apr 18, 2024 15:43
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Barrel Cactaur posted:It's a circular argument because under the relevant international law full UN recognition de jure validates a state as meeting those criteria. I mean, just recently the US representative said that the UN Security Council resolution pushing for an immediate ceasefire wasn't binding (and therefore didn't need to be vetoed), even though all Security Council resolutions are binding by default. An obscure law can definitely be interpreted however based on what is seen as more prudent in the moment.
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Apr 18, 2024 16:12
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As I understand it the UN already recognises Palestine as a state, since it's status is 'non-member observer state'. This vote is about whether to admit it as a full member of the UN. Notably this would allow Palestine to vote and bring cases before the ICJ.Barrel Cactaur posted:De facto: The requirements are a permanent territory, a permanent population, a government that nominally has authority over that territorial claim, and that that government can conduct international affairs. Note that the government being recognized doesn't need firm or exclusive control of its whole territory claim, though at least some portion must be under it's control (Gaza is not a stumbling block, even if interested parties would claim otherwise, and the settlements are a solvable issue as most states consider them non legitimate claims) states have been admitted while in civil wars, so neither is the existence of Hamas. The lack of recent elections has never mattered. The population is not just passing through. The government of the West bank already conducts international relations, and could assert more control over the territory. Israel's only choices would be war, or capitulation. Additionally being an independent state makes it way simpler for other parties to legally intervene, even if practicaly non of them actually would
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Apr 18, 2024 18:31
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Seems like there is a tension between the insistence that the rules-based international order is the alternative to "might makes right" in international affairs, and the rule that says you aren't a part of it if another state occupies your territory with military might.
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Apr 18, 2024 19:59
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nimby posted:Other nations with big enough armies to matter on a world scale are arguably worse It would be a pretty lousy argument, but I'd like to see it made in its own thread; the question of what country would be best suited to replacing US hegemony could be interesting. Paladinus posted:I mean, just recently the US representative said that the UN Security Council resolution pushing for an immediate ceasefire wasn't binding (and therefore didn't need to be vetoed), even though all Security Council resolutions are binding by default. An obscure law can definitely be interpreted however based on what is seen as more prudent in the moment. Feels like the mechanics and traditions intended to obfuscate the fact that the 'international order' inherently favors the US have started to collapse.
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Apr 18, 2024 21:15
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nimby posted:Other nations with big enough armies to matter on a world scale are arguably worse, so the US basically occupied the moral least low ground by of countries that can enforce their will on the global scene. Which is still deep down in a canyon. I mean anything is arguable, but if you tally it all up since the second world war, the US comes out far ahead of any other country in terms of atrocities committed or sponsored.
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Apr 18, 2024 21:44
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Hryme posted:The US conduct in this conflict has highlighted just how hypocritical they are. Along with most other western countries. We will have absolutely no moral ground to criticize human right abuses in the future. As the message is that we and our allies can do whatever we want no matter the human costs. many are saying the hypocrisy is the worst part
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Apr 18, 2024 21:56
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America vetoed Palestine becoming a full member state
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Apr 18, 2024 22:51
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RealityWarCriminal posted:many are saying the hypocrisy is the worst part
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Apr 18, 2024 22:52
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theCalamity posted:America vetoed Palestine becoming a full member state Everyone voted yes except for the US which voted no, and also Switzerland and the UK abstained.
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Apr 18, 2024 22:52
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RealityWarCriminal posted:many are saying the hypocrisy is the worst part
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Apr 18, 2024 22:56
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theCalamity posted:America vetoed Palestine becoming a full member state And absolutely pathetic reasoning. quote:“We completely believe in the two-state solution and a state for the Palestinian people. We believe the best and the most sustainable way to do that is through direct negotiations between the parties,” the White House national security spokesperson, John Kirby, told reporters on board Air Force One on Thursday.
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Apr 18, 2024 23:13
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hadji murad posted:And absolutely pathetic reasoning.
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Apr 18, 2024 23:30
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nimby posted:Other nations with big enough armies to matter on a world scale are arguably worse Well why we're going on gut feeling for this, i'd like to say I disagree and the US military is one of the most barbaric and brutal military's in history. I don't think you can actually find worse. If you can think of a war crime it's been done. They do have amazing PR though, AKA control over a globe spanning media empire, so I can understand the confusion. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 18, 2024 23:47
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Oh whatever could the US secretary of state up to? https://twitter.com/mideastXmidwest/status/1780699444117373390
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Apr 19, 2024 01:53
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Regarde Aduck posted:Well why we're going on gut feeling for this, i'd like to say I disagree and the US military is one of the most barbaric and brutal military's in history. I don't think you can actually find worse. If you can think of a war crime it's been done. They do have amazing PR though, AKA control over a globe spanning media empire, so I can understand the confusion. All militaries do bad things when engaged in combat, it's more a question of scale. Not that the US didn't do plenty of bad stuff but *waves in the vague direction burma/malaysia/cyprus* so did Britain.
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Apr 19, 2024 02:20
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Quantum Cat posted:Oh whatever could the US secretary of state up to? how do you sanction a military unit?
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Apr 19, 2024 02:20
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Nebalebadingdong posted:how do you sanction a military unit? us already sanctions Iranian public guard, identified officers are on a watchlist banning banking and entry to allied nations mostly. so I would guess that way. although I think some part of that is under antiterror laws, so maybe different mechanic would be necessary.
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Apr 19, 2024 02:31
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:us already sanctions Iranian public guard, identified officers are on a watchlist banning banking and entry to allied nations mostly. so I would guess that way. although I think some part of that is under antiterror laws, so maybe different mechanic would be necessary. Given the mass graves currently being discovered at Al Shifa I think any rational actor would consider the IDF breaching the anti-terror laws.
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Apr 19, 2024 02:36
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Well, I guess we're off to the races now. Reports of explosions in Syria, Iraq, and Iran (people have said Isfahan). The Iran strike has been confirmed by a U.S. official https://abcnews.go.com/International/live-updates/israel-gaza-hamas-war/?id=108860743
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Apr 19, 2024 02:38
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Well it appears that Israel launched strikes on targets in Iran a short while ago https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/status/1781128420560126298
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Apr 19, 2024 02:38
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Ignore please.
Hryme fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Apr 19, 2024 |
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Apr 19, 2024 02:40
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Well, I guess we're off to the races now. Reports of explosions in Syria, Iraq, and Iran (people have said Isfahan). The Iran strike has been confirmed by a U.S. official Where are the news outlets discussing this? Other than this one? Why isn't this already breaking news
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Apr 19, 2024 02:46
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FlamingLiberal posted:Well it appears that Israel launched strikes on targets in Iran a short while ago How did Israel fly to Iran? I don't think the Israeli Air Force has refueling tankers and every path would require them to fly through airspace of discerning nations.
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Apr 19, 2024 02:46
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Young Freud posted:How did Israel fly to Iran? I don't think the Israeli Air Force has refueling tankers and every path would require them to fly through airspace of discerning nations. I have bad news about the USAF's complicity in genocide This tweet looks bad in the current moment of airstrikes on Iraq, Syria and Iran https://x.com/marcorubio/status/1781135619508285791 cagliostr0 fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Apr 19, 2024 |
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Apr 19, 2024 02:52
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Nebalebadingdong posted:how do you sanction a military unit? Preventing travel from members associated with that unit to nations undertaking the sanctions, Placing individual financial sanctions on those members, Barring friendly military units from cooperating with or undertaking training with that unit, Conditioning that aid sent to the receiving nation not be passed to the sanctioned unit.
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Apr 19, 2024 02:54
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Young Freud posted:How did Israel fly to Iran? I don't think the Israeli Air Force has refueling tankers and every path would require them to fly through airspace of discerning nations. marco rubio is unironically tweeting through it, so including about how Israel can launch strikes from aircraft over Iraq and Syria etc. without entering Iranian airspace edit: https://x.com/marcorubio/status/1781135619508285791
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Apr 19, 2024 02:54
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Shammypants posted:Where are the news outlets discussing this? Other than this one? Why isn't this already breaking news Breaking news takes time to break. This just happened.
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Apr 19, 2024 02:56
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Breaking news takes time to break. This just happened. Someone should inform ABCNews
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Apr 19, 2024 02:58
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Nebalebadingdong posted:how do you sanction a military unit?  It's the perfect word for diplomatic doublespeak. FlamingLiberal posted:Well it appears that Israel launched strikes on targets in Iran a short while ago
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Apr 19, 2024 02:59
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Young Freud posted:How did Israel fly to Iran? I don't think the Israeli Air Force has refueling tankers and every path would require them to fly through airspace of discerning nations.
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Apr 19, 2024 03:10
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Air launched cruise missiles fired from over Iraq & or Syria would make sense, and tie in to the reports of places with air defence locations in Syria being hit.Shammypants posted:Someone should inform ABCNews I'm actually feeling quite dizzy right now, but if you'll hold on I will put you through to the manager of news.
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Apr 19, 2024 03:13
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