skipmyseashells posted:

his point was cluttering up the thread with stupid arguments whenever israel or america does really bad stuff in the news. This is the third time he’s argued about nothing then disappeared directly after

Butter Activities posted:

Okay what actually is your point in all this? What is any of this about? What ultimate point relevant to anything we’re talking about right now is it important that we quibble over the nature of historical ethnic claims to land with you?

VitalSigns posted:

Okay what actually is your point in all this? What is any of this about? What ultimate point relevant to anything we’re talking about right now is it important that we quibble over the nature of historical ethnic claims to land with you?

fool of sound posted:

Raenir is many things but I don’t think they’re a paid hasbara agent or whatever lol

Raenir Salazar posted:

So part of this is its about people as a group, and not about you the individual. You might not care, but others might. I vaguely feel a calling to Manitoba because I'm part Metis, and being descended from Louis Riel is a part of my family history. Maybe you don't have the sort of family traditions or context where it makes sense to you, but I think the important thing here is being open to the way others might feel differently; especially people who regularly do communal activities like going to gatherings like a church or community centers where people mingle with other people with the same traditions.

Like many nations have community outreach centers in various ethnic enclaves, China with Chinatowns for example; where the overseas community, the Chinese diaspora for example, still maintain regular contact with friends and relatives with the PRC and vice versa. Recently you had riots in Japan between the overseas Armenian and Turkish communities who still very clearly despite settling in Japan felt very strong ties to their homelands.

Of course as I said, just having a claim doesn't mean you have the "right" to use violence in trying to deepen your ties or act on them in some or whatever manner, I dunno how many times I've said this or have to say this.

The point I am saying is that it is in fact reasonable for a group of people to say that they view Scotland as your homeland, if you identify that way, and if you want to move to scotland or visit random people aren't really credibly able to say you shouldn't hold that belief or act on it in of course non-violent ways. Scotland and Ireland are interesting examples because of British Imperialism probably displacing people against their will and there's probably some families around the world who still pass down bitter feelings about the British, that feeling as an example, of being wronged, and more generally that connection is valid to hold onto.

It's not really about "vibes" or arbitrary ancestors but what could be reasonably construed as deeply held cultural and communal beliefs and I'm not saying this justifies violence in pursuit of it.

e:

You can click on the quote chain to refer back to the original post being responded to.

And the "why" of it, I just disagree with it and think its unhelpful? I'm not sure there needs to be anything "about" this? Lives aren't on the line in an online discussion forum.

e2:

See above, I'm not sure how you can say there's no claim to I/P in this discussion when it was clearly a claim relating to the I/P conflict that prompted the discussion, you'll have to explain to me why you don't see a connection there.

fool of sound posted:

Szarrukin posted:

the goal is to produce bloated word salad and provoke pointless discussions distracting people from yet another israeli war crime.

skipmyseashells posted:

his point was cluttering up the thread with stupid arguments whenever israel or america does really bad stuff in the news. This is the third time he’s argued about nothing then disappeared directly after

Sephyr posted:

Writers and essayists squirt giant clouds of ink for the same reason squids do: to distract and confuse. I was reading through his posts for a while and most were belabored, multi-paragraph just-asking-questions diatribes that oscilate between pseudo-academic wanking "but what is a people, anyway?" and "ethnostates are cool and good, actually", depending on how much good faith you ascribe.

I mean, we're at the mass grave stage of this debacle. I'm not saying everyone should go out and break things, but after a certain point this fake high-minded debate pervert diatribes become either malicious or tone-deaf.

Digamma-F-Wau posted:

Morning Joe's the show that Biden watches and trusts a ton, right?

fool of sound posted:

So have you changed your mind about your support for the partition then?

e: as a reminder this is where we were when you vanished from the thread

Civilized Fishbot posted:

Anyway I think you might be interested in Shaul Maggid's "Necessity of Exile" which is his own take on these questions.

VitalSigns posted:

I don't see what any of that has to do with I/P

Yes people can feel however they want, if you feel a connection to Ireland because your family had roots there and you keep in touch with extended family from there, that's your right. It's also your right to feel a deep connection to Ireland because you're an Irelaboo who just became enamored with it on your own.

So what, that has nothing to do with current events in Israel, a country that is acting on it with violence. It's practically a nothing statement. People can't tell each other not to feel a certain way. Okay so?

MeinPanzer posted:

If anybody would like another really interesting and accessible book on the historical realities of how the Jewish diaspora was formed and how myths about exile have come to influence Israeli identity, I'd highly recommend Shlomo Sands' The Invention of the Jewish People.

A big flaming stink posted:

NYU decided to build an apartheid plywood wall around their campus.

https://twitter.com/ArielleLAngel/status/1782766565072486878

https://twitter.com/palyouthmvmt/status/1782815930457673873

Have we considered that university admins are deep cover pro-Palestinians? Because this action seems literally perfect for creating a lasting movement against Israel in college campuses

Angry Salami posted:

I'd note that Sands' work is controversial at best - among other things, he endorses the Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry, a theory that lacks any real evidence and which is strongly linked to antisemitic conspiracy theories. It's probably not a work that you should rely on for understanding Jewish history and identity.

MeinPanzer posted:

If anybody would like another really interesting and accessible book on the historical realities of how the Jewish diaspora was formed and how myths about exile have come to influence Israeli identity, I'd highly recommend Shlomo Sands' The Invention of the Jewish People.

Basically, Israeli culture has obscured the twin realities that the historical expulsion of the inhabitants of what is today Israel in ancient history has been heavily exaggerated and that Judaism was a proselytizing religion for much of the Second Temple period and beyond. Much of the diaspora, especially outside of the bounds of the Roman Empire (i.e. Ashkenazi populations), probably grew from communities that were converted to Judaism. This makes it effectively impossible to neatly delineate issues of ancestry when it comes to Israeli identity.

Separately, I've always thought that an interesting thought experiment that helps to clarify how insoluble this kind of debate is is the case of the Roma. Let's say that in the wake of the Holocaust the UN decided that the Roma were to be granted a homeland akin to Israel. Where would it be? Presumably somewhere in the borders of modern Pakistan, but how would you define its borders? And who would have a right to live there? Roma, Sinti, and others who speak some form of Romani language, sure; but what about Irish travellers and other groups who are "Roma adjacent"?

The moment you try to work these things out you run up against the fundamental contradictions of the nation-state.

Digamma-F-Wau posted:

Morning Joe's the show that Biden watches and trusts a ton, right?

Gucci Loafers posted:

Hell no,

Joe Scarborough is a former GOP congressman and Galloway is a internet-hype-train idiot who really ought to be ignored but overconfidently throws out over confident ultimatums that play well on social media.

quote:

During the day, Biden has long asked his staff whether they saw a story, a poll, or a segment that had been on the show. He's included show regulars in off-the-record conversations with policy experts.
Biden pays particular attention to — and has consulted with — "Morning Joe" regulars such as longtime reporter Mike Barnicle, foreign policy expert Richard Haass and historian Jon Meacham, who has assisted on several Biden speeches.

Gucci Loafers posted:

Hell no,

Joe Scarborough is a former GOP congressman and Galloway is a internet-hype-train idiot who really ought to be ignored but overconfidently throws out over confident ultimatums that play well on social media.

Bar Ran Dun posted:

Both of the PREPOs are drifting near Souda Bay.



Army vessels still alongside in Souda Bay



So all the ships are nearby now. My opinion is that if they aren’t moving by mid next week like Wednesday, that’s it’s time to ask the administration if they still intend move forward to install it and to call them cowards if the answer is no.

punishedkissinger posted:

Biden is apparently obsessed with the show.

https://www.axios.com/2024/02/02/biden-obsession-morning-joe-msnbc-media

Nonsense posted:

These people should have been removed the way we removed South Vietnam's corrupt Presidency.

Nonsense posted:

https://twitter.com/yoavgallant/status/1783108301829423552

These people should have been removed the way we removed South Vietnam's corrupt Presidency. Threatening American children, what's next for these psychos?

MeinPanzer posted:

Separately, I've always thought that an interesting thought experiment that helps to clarify how insoluble this kind of debate is is the case of the Roma. Let's say that in the wake of the Holocaust the UN decided that the Roma were to be granted a homeland akin to Israel. Where would it be? Presumably somewhere in the borders of modern Pakistan, but how would you define its borders? And who would have a right to live there? Roma, Sinti, and others who speak some form of Romani language, sure; but what about Irish travellers and other groups who are "Roma adjacent"?

The moment you try to work these things out you run up against the fundamental contradictions of the nation-state.

Nonsense posted:

https://twitter.com/yoavgallant/status/1783108301829423552

These people should have been removed the way we removed South Vietnam's corrupt Presidency. Threatening American children, what's next for these psychos?

h_double posted:

I would be deeply suspicious if the UN had made a proposal to give the Roma (or gay holocaust survivors or anybody) their own homeland. The whole idea feels like Liberia or moving people onto a reservation, I'm immediately suspicious about the underlying motives.

kiminewt posted:

How does that align with the fact that Jewish populations are genetically closer to each other (including Europeans, middle Eastern and north African Jews) than they are to any of the locals populations? (and if I'm not mistaken, after that they're most related to Palestinians).

It elicits the Khazar hypothesis and people yelling about how jews in Israel should go back to Poland or whatever.

h_double posted:

I would be deeply suspicious if the UN had made a proposal to give the Roma (or gay holocaust survivors or anybody) their own homeland. The whole idea feels like Liberia or moving people onto a reservation, I'm immediately suspicious about the underlying motives.

Gripweed posted:

Gay people have a long standing historical claim to Greater Fire Island. The territory is currently unused, no country on earth recognizes “Suffolk County” as a nation.

MeinPanzer posted:

I'm not going to dive into this in detail because it's very complicated, but a lot of those genetic studies about Ashkenazi communities that have been widely publicized in the popular media are deeply flawed. My understanding is that, on balance, much of the genetic similarity can be accounted for by the insularity of a lot of Ashkenazi communities over 1000-1500 years of history.

theCalamity posted:

Where are they at now?

h_double posted:

I would be deeply suspicious if the UN had made a proposal to give the Roma (or gay holocaust survivors or anybody) their own homeland. The whole idea feels like Liberia or moving people onto a reservation, I'm immediately suspicious about the underlying motives.

Lum_ posted:

Morning Joe especially is the worst example of #Resistance performative hashtag liberalism, which is deeply ironic considering the active role Joe and Mika Brzenzenski played in hyping up Trump's 2016 electoral bid.

I guess it's an improvement that Gallant didn't call them human animals. And he's what passes for a moderate in Israeli politics.

Marenghi posted:

Was Liberia even properly colonized? I thought the Black American's the US sent over there was a tiny amount in proportion to the indigenous, and of those many died from tropical diseases.