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I’m surprised the US isn’t evacuating refugees directly onto carriers. Isn’t a carrier supposed to be really good for this kinda thing? I assumed thay purpose was one of the unstated reasons for keeping it nearby.
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Oct 17, 2023 21:55
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The US is openly backing the extermination of Gaza, what interest would anyone with power to assist in an evacuation have in doing so?
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Oct 17, 2023 21:57
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I'm sure having the capability to pick up U.S. nationals if the necessity arises is considered a nice perk to having the fleet there, but I suspect it's a pretty minor consideration in the big scheme of things.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:01
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brugroffil posted:The US governments official line for now is that bombing the hospital was justified Thanks for that tweet, this was a very fascinating insight into the mental process of someone seemingly devoid of any humanity and/or rationality
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Oct 17, 2023 22:02
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Count Roland posted:Link? There's one three posts up from you. The one I saw originally was from a different angle but it basically showed the same thing. Military bombs don't really create fireball explosions by themselves, the explosive material just detonates very fast and there's nothing left to burn after a fraction of a second. Typically a fireball means that the bomb ignited something else. Keep in mind that it's very reasonable for a hospital in a warzone to have significant fuel storage and oxygen and all sorts of other things that burn so it doesn't mean much.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:02
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Avren posted:The <Enter State> is openly backing the extermination of <Other State>, what interest would anyone with power to assist in <Insert Humanitarian Action> have in doing so? You can make this argument for anyone and anything in this conflict.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:03
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Feel sick right now, this is a tragedy on a unimaginable scale getting worse day by day. Hopefully some desclation can happen in the next few days.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:04
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Newer footage showing the same barrage and explosion, but with timestamps around 20 minutes before the first ground reports of the hospital explosion. https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1714384324710015459?s=20 Again, fog of war is a big thing. The apparent pre-prepared rationale and excuses dropped and then retracted by the IDF and Israeli officials says a lot about their mindset and intentions going forward, even if it does turn out to be a failed/intercepted launch. Rakosi fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Oct 17, 2023 |
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Oct 17, 2023 22:04
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I don't think any rocket from any Palestinian group has ever killed more than several people and have something like 20kg max warheads (they're looking to shoot them for range rather than raw explosive power and they have no guidance so doesn't make sense to overload on any given one). Now, *if* an intact rocket with lots of fuel managed to land perfectly on a packed hospital and this hospital was coincidentally jammed full of armaments - which is what the state of Israel currently wants you to believe - I could just about accept that it could lead to the deaths of 500 - 1,000 people. But there's lots there that doesn't work out. It can't have just been some kind of fuel explosion - the reports on the ground are of bodies torn apart (rather than thrown and burnt). Most likely scenario (particularly given Israel's initial statements from various organs; its warnings to hospitals; it's behaviour over the last ten days; its storied history of lie, obfuscate then partially admit or admit once it blows over etc) is that Israel hit the hospital deliberately or accidentally while intending something nearby. I suspect the former more than the latter.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:16
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mannerup posted:this is the official account of what occurred according to the IDF (and I emphasize, according to the IDF) There’s a new version of this tweet!
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Oct 17, 2023 22:17
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Hong XiuQuan posted:I don't think any rocket from any Palestinian group has ever killed more than several people and have something like 20kg max warheads (they're looking to shoot them for range rather than raw explosive power and they have no guidance so doesn't make sense to overload on any given one). Now, *if* an intact rocket with lots of fuel managed to land perfectly on a packed hospital and this hospital was coincidentally jammed full of armaments - which is what the state of Israel currently wants you to believe - I could just about accept that it could lead to the deaths of 500 - 1,000 people. Aha! That means there must have been a massive explosives/ammo cache inside the so-called "hospital" that the errant rocket detonated.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:22
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Elden Lord Godfrey posted:There’s a new version of this tweet! It's alright, by tomorrow morning I'm sure they'll have perfected it.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:23
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Hong XiuQuan posted:I don't think any rocket from any Palestinian group has ever killed more than several people and have something like 20kg max warheads (they're looking to shoot them for range rather than raw explosive power and they have no guidance so doesn't make sense to overload on any given one). Now, *if* an intact rocket with lots of fuel managed to land perfectly on a packed hospital and this hospital was coincidentally jammed full of armaments - which is what the state of Israel currently wants you to believe - I could just about accept that it could lead to the deaths of 500 - 1,000 people. The courtyard has been packed with people. There's a photo gallery in this article that shows some pics from the last few days. https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/gallery/2023/10/17/photos-an-israeli-air-raid-on-al-ahli-arab-hospital-kills-an-estimated-500 If a smaller Hamas armament hit a packed courtyard, there could be hundreds of causalities, easily. But if the building came down or got significantly damaged, idk if Hamas armaments could do it. An airstrike against the hospital would also likely result in massive causalities in the courtyard. ummel fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Oct 17, 2023 |
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Oct 17, 2023 22:23
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Vegetable posted:I’m surprised the US isn’t evacuating refugees directly onto carriers. Isn’t a carrier supposed to be really good for this kinda thing? I assumed thay purpose was one of the unstated reasons for keeping it nearby. The US doesn't really give a poo poo as far as refugees but they haven't evacuated citizens yet either. Carriers have been used for that but the question is how to get those people from Gaza to the boat. The US Navy probably doesn't want to be in a situation where Hamas could fire at them and then drag them even further into the war, so doing some Black Hawk Down poo poo is way out of the question, and putting a boat on the shore would just lead it to be swarmed by people who don't want to die, citizens or not.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:26
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 17, 2023 22:30
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Hmm, could Hamas have misfired with an unprecedentedly powerful rocket that no-one knew they had, at a hugely overcrowded hospital they had no reason to be pointing weapons at, for any reason? Or could the IDF be lying, like they have done about virtually everything, for as long as most of us can remember, until they are forced by the weight of evidence to acknowledge their own responsibility for warcrimes? It's such a mystery. gently caress Israel. gently caress the IDF. gently caress the lovely warcrime-defending moderation of this subforum. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 17, 2023 22:33
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ummel posted:The courtyard has been packed with people. There's a photo gallery in this article that shows some pics from the last few days. Why are we even debating this when Netanyahu's social media guy took credit for the attack immediately after it happened?
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Oct 17, 2023 22:36
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mannerup posted:https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1714392700152172963 I can't imagine him cancelling. Sure diplomacy with all other parties has burned, sunk and crashed into the ocean floor, but US-Israel relations still require major direct action. Biden needs to discuss what those Carriers and 2000 on-call US troops might be doing, whatever the hope/plan is for humanitarian aid, evacuating US citizens from Israel and everything around, and whatever comment the US has in response to the attack on the hospital and UN school. Any one of those issues will have a lot more weight to them with Biden handling them personally.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:36
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Starting to get more corroborating geolocation evidence from non-IDF sources that it was a rocket/missile fired by Palestinian Groups, but nothing conclusive or reliable about which one in particular would have been responsible. https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1714390254935851272?s=20
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Oct 17, 2023 22:40
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Darth Walrus posted:Why are we even debating this when Netanyahu's social media guy took credit for the attack immediately after it happened? Because that's what we do here, we debate and discuss? Even if it was a Hamas rocket (probably not if the damage is what it seems like from reports cited upthread), the only reason people were there was because of the danger of the IDF airstrikes. No one is absolving IDF of responsibility here. (Edit- figures, fml)
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Oct 17, 2023 22:41
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Rakosi posted:Starting to get more corroborating geolocation evidence from non-IDF sources that it was a rocket/missile fired by Palestinian Groups, but nothing conclusive or reliable about which one in particular would have been responsible. The guy quoted there goes on to state exactly the opposite conclusions: https://x.com/yousuf_tw/status/1714370703565205787?s=20 https://x.com/yousuf_tw/status/1714370988907929634?s=20
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Oct 17, 2023 22:43
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I feel like it's too murky for people to really know the answer without just wanting it to be one or the other really hard. I was pretty convinced it was Israel at first, but now I don't know. If it was them, I guess they succeeded in throwing up a big smokescreen and sowing doubt, but weird poo poo does happen, and people are wrong all the time in one direction or another about attributing explosions, so I guess we'll have to wait and see. I still don't know how a Palestinian rocket could possibly have that much explosive power though, so maybe I'm being a dumb sucker for falling for it.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:46
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Holy poo poo words fail me. What a loving disgusting act. Sickened our governments are going along with this Not going to be able to unsee some of the things coming out tonight... None of these claims about it being a Hamas rocket sound credible. And even by some unlikely chance it was, Israel is bombing the poo poo out of the rest of Gaza and killing people indiscriminately. All those thousands of other deaths aren't all due to 'Hamas misfires'.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:51
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ummel posted:Because that's what we do here, we debate and discuss? So what possible chain of circumstances do you think could result in the office of the Israeli prime minister taking credit for a strike on a hospital immediately after it happened, only for it to turn out that Hamas did it instead? How is this a realistic series of events that's worthy of debate and discussion?
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Oct 17, 2023 22:51
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Nov 5, 2023 |
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Oct 17, 2023 22:51
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Dr Kool-AIDS posted:I feel like it's too murky for people to really know the answer without just wanting it to be one or the other really hard. I was pretty convinced it was Israel at first, but now I don't know. If it was them, I guess they succeeded in throwing up a big smokescreen and sowing doubt, but weird poo poo does happen, and people are wrong all the time in one direction or another about attributing explosions, so I guess we'll have to wait and see. I still don't know how a Palestinian rocket could possibly have that much explosive power though, so maybe I'm being a dumb sucker for falling for it. This is asinine, a rocket misfire from PIJ being able to cause this much damage is obviously the more incredible claim when compared against bombing by a force that is actively bombing all sorts of buildings all over the strip. This is a claim that requires extroardinary evidence, and absent that, the default assumption should be that the hospital was bombed by Israel. Using the "fog of war" to throw up your hands and say both claims are equally possible is absurd.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:52
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Rakosi posted:https://twitter.com/yousuf_tw/status/1714367757968384106 So is this credible? A missile interception would explain most of the contradictory statements.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:53
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daslog posted:So is this credible? A missile interception would explain most of the contradictory statements. In the other video of the attack that WaPo is hosting you can hear the whistling of the missile followed by a direct impact, falling shrapnel of an intercepted rocket doesn't line up with that.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:56
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mannerup posted:https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1714392700152172963 POTUS Biden is departing from an air base soon, Jordan leg has been cancelled, he’s landing in Tel Aviv.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:57
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Rakosi posted:Starting to get more corroborating geolocation evidence from non-IDF sources that it was a rocket/missile fired by Palestinian Groups, but nothing conclusive or reliable about which one in particular would have been responsible. Yes, this suggests that the rocket failure and the explosion that hit the hospital are two separate things. In addition, the sound and apparent speed and trajectory would suggest a direct strike, not an accidental one.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:58
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Hong XiuQuan posted:The guy quoted there goes on to state exactly the opposite conclusions: Yeah, I saw these but didn't post about them because there hasn't been any evidence produced that directly supports these causative conclusions yet. The thread just shows the connection between the various rocket/missile launch clips, and the hospital getting hit right after. As far as I am aware, Israeli rocket interception, like the iron dome, doesn't operate over Gaza like this and rockets are not usually intercepted during the accent part of their trajectory (citation needed). It could be true that they were aiming at the launchers of that barrage but they were in a completely different area. The speculation about the heat-seeking confusion could be true, but is currently unfalsifiable. Nothing there can't also be explained by the rocket malfunction you see in the sky and it falling and causing the explosion directly below it, on the hospital. Another explanation I've seen is that the rocket wasn't intercepted, but the motor malfunctioned, which could have been that big spray of orange in the sky some 3-4 seconds before the impact. Could've messed up the ballistics and pitched the warhead down at high speed. Darth Walrus posted:So what possible chain of circumstances do you think could result in the office of the Israeli prime minister taking credit for a strike on a hospital immediately after it happened, only for it to turn out that Hamas did it instead? How is this a realistic series of events that's worthy of debate and discussion? Given the current war crimes being committed against innocents in Gaza and therefore the assumed mindset of the IDF, I guess officials come preloaded with these denials, excuses and rationales to reply with even before they have confirmed the information themselves. It's completely plausible it was a malfunction and the IDF/Government initially rationalised it as if it was them because, well, they don't actually care if it was them or not, and the event doesn't fall outside the scope of what they are prepared to do anyway. Rakosi fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Oct 17, 2023 |
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Oct 17, 2023 22:58
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Missile interception doesn't make sense, since it doesn't solve the "Hamas doesn't have powerful rockets" issue, and I don't think intercept munitions have the kind of playload/force to cause the hospital explosion.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:59
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mannerup posted:https://twitter.com/mofauae/status/1714396364665143798 Until they shutter their embassy or start a new oil embargo it's just words. Absent some real action, I assume the Arab leaders are still planning on selling out the Palestinians again the second they take the room's temperature and think it's safe to do so. AFancyQuestionMark posted:This is asinine, a rocket misfire from PIJ being able to cause this much damage is obviously the more incredible claim when compared against bombing by a force that is actively bombing all sorts of buildings all over the strip. This is a claim that requires extroardinary evidence, and absent that, the default assumption should be that the hospital was bombed by Israel. Using the "fog of war" to throw up your hands and say both claims are equally possible is absurd. I'm not saying anyone's an idiot if they think one is more plausible than the other, just that it seems too murky to completely rule anything out. Maybe the obvious answer is the right one and I'll feel like an idiot tomorrow for even entertaining other possibilities, but I feel like tons of people have been caught out attributing to attacks to one party or another in various wars and looked really dumb when they could have just waited a day to find out. Either way, I'm glad the world is appropriately horrified by what happened, and hope it contributes to more international pressure for humanitarian aid and a cease fire regardless of who did it. CuddleCryptid posted:In the other video of the attack that WaPo is hosting you can hear the whistling of the missile followed by a direct impact, falling shrapnel of an intercepted rocket doesn't line up with that. The whistle is the biggest thing that made me think it was obviously Israel at first. Maybe that's why it's still obvious, but I don't know enough about what other explosive scenarios sound like, so maybe it just sounds like an airstrike to me because I've heard a ton of airstrikes over the years.
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Oct 17, 2023 22:59
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Ash Crimson posted:Thanks for that tweet, this was a very fascinating insight into the mental process of someone seemingly devoid of any humanity and/or rationality tbh I think US politicians are scared to death of criticizing anything Israel does and being labeled antisemitic they'll bend over backwards as far as they have to to get out of having to make some hard lines against what the Israeli leadership is doing
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Oct 17, 2023 23:00
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Darth Walrus posted:So what possible chain of circumstances do you think could result in the office of the Israeli prime minister taking credit for a strike on a hospital immediately after it happened, only for it to turn out that Hamas did it instead? How is this a realistic series of events that's worthy of debate and discussion? Because disproving claims put forth, even if ridiculous, has merit. Being able to point to the fact that Hamas rockets couldn't level a building has merit.
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Oct 17, 2023 23:00
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brugroffil posted:The US governments official line for now is that bombing the hospital was justified How can she stand up there and say that, I am just speechless. Not a shred of empathy.
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Oct 17, 2023 23:04
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For the record, here's how MSF describes the strike. It was a much, much bigger deal than 'whoops, some debris fell in a courtyard'. https://x.com/msf/status/1714363238240973125?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Oct 17, 2023 23:07
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Pedro De Heredia posted:Do you have a link to where they admitted it? (just curious, not doubting it) Sorry I was mistaken. It was 5 not 9 children. But it was the same scenario - obviously an Israeli attack which they blamed on a PIJ misfire. Including people posting supposed videos of the misfire one of which was in the tweet threads posted earlier. quote:Israeli defence officials have confirmed that an Israeli raid on a Gaza cemetery killed five Palestinian children during its assault in early August, according to a new report, contradicting previous statements senior military officials made to local media. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/8/16/israel-behind-gaza-strike-that-killed-children-report
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Oct 17, 2023 23:07
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Gotta laugh at all the OSINT brain geniuses who think a loving Qassam killed 500 people if Hamas had munitions that powerful the occupation would have been over years ago punishedkissinger fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Oct 17, 2023 |
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Oct 17, 2023 23:09
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not that I buy any of Israel's bullshit but who is "Yousuf" other than just some guy on twitter with ~1k followers. that footage is proper blurry and it seems difficult to be certain what it's actually happening in it
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Oct 17, 2023 23:13
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