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Internet Explorer posted:How is this different from the US military or the UN or whomever leading a land convoy on the ground, not stopping for checkpoints, and saying "if you want to stop us, you'll have to use force?" It's different because the messaging and appearance are different. It's a very different look to set up an alternative entry point for aid which doesn't involve your troops even making landfall, vs unilaterally sending a ground column through a checkpoint your ally wants to say they have control over. Unfortunately, messaging, appearances and norms are basically the cornerstones of international relations, which leads to ridiculous things like this pier. Bar Ran Dun is even saying Israel will probably bomb it or the convoys coming off it so it's not like they're huffing a bunch of copium or anything
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Apr 29, 2024 18:52
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punishedkissinger posted:For all the effort posts no one has really been able to explain why the pier will work better than ground routes. I believe Israel is relying on the lie that it's right wing protests at the border are a situation it can't resolve to avoid blocking trucks being official policy. Those people can't be at the pier, and can't do it in Cypress because the laws and rules are enforced by Cypress port police. They would have to make starvation an official policy rather than something that they simply make happen.
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Apr 29, 2024 18:53
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Bar Ran Dun posted:That all would be done though. Their entry requirements would have been met in Cyprus. Yeah but they could also change their requirements at any time to delay the aid and frustrate things. They could set up checkpoints further for the trucks further in, right? Isn’t Israel providing security for the pier? They could theoretically shut it down by claiming that Hamas is operating nearby or something. DeadlyMuffin posted:We'll find out how much aid, if any, gets through the pier relatively soon. I want it to work. Gazans need food. However, I don’t trust Israel especially when they’re the reason why aid isn’t getting to Gazans. I also don’t trust the US because the government keeps supporting Israel.
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Apr 29, 2024 19:05
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Kagrenak posted:Bar Ran Dun is even saying Israel will probably bomb it or the convoys coming off it so it's not like they're huffing a bunch of copium or anything If one thinks the Israelis won’t back down from genocide ever and will take any action necessary to complete it, there are a couple of directions that could go. One is that the world does nothing and allows a genocide that will be talked in comparison with the Holocaust. The other is that a place is found to evacuate the Palestinians to (and the only possibility I see there is Saudi).
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Apr 29, 2024 19:44
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Internet Explorer posted:How is this different from the US military or the UN or whomever leading a land convoy on the ground, not stopping for checkpoints, and saying "if you want to stop us, you'll have to use force?" The difference is the cost to third parties. If we assume for a minute that a far removed country, say Malaysia doesn't have much of a dog in this fight, it suddenly becomes in Malaysia's interest to decry the US's actions of violating territorial sovereignty to support logistics because they may not want the same thing to happen to them later. In the three party problem of Palestinians, US, and Israel, having the US punch Israel in the nose to help the Palestinian people sounds like an easy yes. In global politics, having the US punch the very nature of sovereignty in the nose for literally every single nation state threatens to normalize actions that would be normal elsewhere, and is exactly the kind of action decried as imperialistic. The US doesn't like invade a nation-state because they want to. They always have a reason--just like Russians "defending" the rights of ethnic Russians in Crimea or weapons of mass destruction in Iraq or unacceptable actions by Spain in Cuba and The Phillipines combined with an attack. Even the Nazis fabricated a humanitarian lreason to invade Poland. So international law says soverign power has the decision and pretty much all soverign powers fight to preserve that right. This is why the US tries to get the UN or at least a large coalition "of the willing" whenever it does decide to breech international etiquette.
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Apr 29, 2024 19:44
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mawarannahr posted:Oh wow im just finding this out for the first time. Welcome to the ummah brother Alot of crazy ppl are gonna try to attach themselves to the protests. The point is to pay attn to the actual organizations demands which is universally divestment by their college's investment funds. Everything else is noise.
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Apr 29, 2024 19:45
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Bar Ran Dun posted:If one thinks the Israelis won’t back down from genocide ever and will take any action necessary to complete it, there are a couple of directions that could go. One is that the world does nothing and allows a genocide that will be talked in comparison with the Holocaust. The other is that a place is found to evacuate the Palestinians to (and the only possibility I see there is Saudi). "evacuating" Palestinians is also genocide in any reasonable interpretation of the word.
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Apr 29, 2024 19:58
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Bar Ran Dun posted:If one thinks the Israelis won’t back down from genocide ever and will take any action necessary to complete it, there are a couple of directions that could go. One is that the world does nothing and allows a genocide that will be talked in comparison with the Holocaust. The other is that a place is found to evacuate the Palestinians to (and the only possibility I see there is Saudi). Well the wrong thing about your plan other than it is textbook ethnic cleansing and genocide is that you have two countries between Gaza and Saudi Arabia. Have you looked at a map of the ME before?
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Apr 29, 2024 20:05
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Do you see how much of an enormous pain in the rear end I am when I think that I am correct and the person I’m taking to is incorrect. Welcome to normal on the waterfront. Someone like me, (probably older than me) will be gently telling them to eat poo poo and hair, while taking thorough notes and photos and exactly following the written inspection guidelines and procedures. Badass, dude. Would you also flip off the authorities?
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Apr 29, 2024 20:06
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Shageletic posted:Well the wrong thing about your plan other than it is textbook ethnic cleansing and genocide is that you have two countries between Gaza and Saudi Arabia. Have you looked at a map of the ME before? It’s not “my plan”. Yes it’s all genocide everybody participating in the conversation thinks the Israelis are actively pursuing a genocide. Think through what happens if the Israelis really aren’t going allow aid in. After the ladder of escalations about food aid happens via the pier, go through all the surrounding countries (especially the Sunni ones) and think about who would be willing and or able to take refugees. Egypt isn’t going to. Lebanon and Jordan probably can’t. It’s pretty loving bleak. Do you think Israel is going to let them through a ground border crossing?
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Apr 29, 2024 20:20
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Bar Ran Dun posted:It’s not “my plan”. Wait so you think that the actual function of the pier in the end will be to evacuate the population of Gaza overseas?
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Apr 29, 2024 20:24
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Bar Ran Dun posted:You would like the US military to lead a land convoy through Egypt, ignore the borders, continuously/repeatedly to establish a permanent supply chain. Doesn't Egypt share a land border with Gaza? How is entering Gaza from Egypt without crossing into Israel an invasion of Israel? If it is because, how is entering Gaza from the Med any different.
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Apr 29, 2024 20:28
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Bar Ran Dun posted:It’s not “my plan”. Listen I'm having trouble parsing what your point is. The genocide is the point. Israel would happily watch Gazans starve. You moved on from the pier clearly being a distraction, at best, based on other people posting here and now you're what, just musing on the Palestinians moving through some sort of, I don't know, march of bleakness through two countries? Like what are you even trying to say here.
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Apr 29, 2024 20:28
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Shageletic posted:Alot of crazy ppl are gonna try to attach themselves to the protests. The point is to pay attn to the actual organizations demands which is universally divestment by their college's investment funds. Everything else is noise. I agree but just to be clear here, this imam isn't a crazy person and calling him antisemitic is slander. He is homophobic to the extent that, like most Palestinians, he's an orthodox Muslim so he thinks being gay and eating pork etc is stuff God doesn't want you to do. But he is basically as left-wing as a normal imam can get - he is constantly doing interfaith stuff, ISIS called for his murder a while ago. Here's a Facebook post he made about ten years ago, forcefully rejecting antisemitism: quote:As disgusted as am by the continued oppression towards the Palestinians, I do not approve of many of the hateful comments on my statuses. We shouldn't do to others what we don't like done to us. There are many Jews that are speaking up against the transgressions of lsrael and even leading demonstrations around the country. It's unjust to throw them all into one box and as Muslims we should know better since that's so frequently done to us. I can't believe people are making pro Hitler remarks! What message are you sending when you say stuff like "he shouldve finished them off. "What in the world have you read in the Quran or Sunnah that makes you think thats ok? We cannot respond to injustice with injustice and wish upon the children of others what continues to happen to our children. Our Prophet (peace be upon him) taught us to be ethical even as we are most vulnerable. The idea that we can kill their innocents because of whats happened to ours has no place in our religion.
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Apr 29, 2024 20:40
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Israel truly wants the Gazans to die, and doesn't care what anyone else thinks because they have the apparently unconditional backing of the US. I hope that helps.
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Apr 29, 2024 20:41
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I agree but just to be clear here, this imam isn't a crazy person and calling him antisemitic is slander. He is homophobic to the extent that, like most Palestinians, he's an orthodox Muslim so he thinks being gay and eating pork etc is stuff God doesn't want you to do. But he is basically as left-wing as a normal imam can get - he is constantly doing interfaith stuff, ISIS called for his murder a while ago. Man I retract calling him crazy. I didn't read it carefully enough and showed my rear end.
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Apr 29, 2024 20:46
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Civilized Fishbot posted:These might be important to keep in mind if you are interested in the question of whether American protesters are good or bad people. Are they relevant to the question of whether the protests are spreading antisemitic ideas? Oh, I totally agree, and I think the protest organizers are right to swiftly and loudly say "gently caress that, that's not what we're about," which they have been doing. I'm just saying, for the purposes of this discussion, let's all be clear-eyed about how hard pro-Zionist groups are trying to muddy the waters by distorting what this movement is really about. quote:I think whether "gently caress the Jews" is inspired by contempt for Zionism or contempt for something else they associate with Judaism or both, again it's irrelevant to the actual impact of the rhetoric, in other words, the experiences of the people targeted by it. The reality of the Houthi state is repression/imprisonment/exile of local religious minorities - the Jews until they were all kicked out, and still ongoing with Bahai. Yeah but it's pretty disingenuous to point at photos with those banners and shout, "SEE?! These anti-Zionists are saying 'thank you' to this group for offering their moral support; that totally means they're the same!" Luckily I don't think that particular vector of attack is catching on all that well. Shageletic posted:Man I retract calling him crazy. I didn't read it carefully enough and showed my rear end. I find you guilty of doing a no-growth. May Allah have mercy on your soul. Majorian fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Apr 29, 2024 |
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Apr 29, 2024 21:14
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Gripweed posted:Wait so you think that the actual function of the pier in the end will be to evacuate the population of Gaza overseas? Shageletic posted:Listen I'm having trouble parsing what your point is. The genocide is the point. Israel would happily watch Gazans starve. Have you thought through what happens if you are correct. Not what you want to happen in an ideal world, but the realistic possibilities. Yeah that’s a possibility Gripweed. It’s going to be absolutely nuts watching the next month or so of news. Think about POSIWID regarding the pier as the news progresses.
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Apr 29, 2024 21:22
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The ICC might actually be at least considering going after senior Israelis. https://twitter.com/Seamus_Malek/status/1785031407359946888
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Apr 29, 2024 23:25
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Good.
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Apr 29, 2024 23:33
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Have you thought through what happens if you are correct. Not what you want to happen in an ideal world, but the realistic possibilities. I think realistically, with the amount of pressure on Israel and the US wisens up before Biden loses an election, that Palestinians can beat back the genocide and win.
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Apr 29, 2024 23:41
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https://x.com/FranceskAlbs/status/1785073411347100123 https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/04/testimonies-occupied-palestinian-territory-show-new-depths-israels quote:Albanese reiterated calls for an immediate ceasefire, an end to Israel’s illegal control of Gaza and the Occupied Palestinian Territory and a protective presence to ensure peace and stability in the region.
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Apr 30, 2024 01:59
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:The ICC might actually be at least considering going after senior Israelis. You know this is true because a lot of congresscreeps on both sides of the aisle are talking about what to do if it happens. It feels like it's a foregone conclusion. https://x.com/austinahlman/status/1785079284429636014
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Apr 30, 2024 02:04
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Young Freud posted:You know this is true because a lot of congresscreeps on both sides of the aisle are talking about what to do if it happens. It feels like it's a foregone conclusion. Not surprised seeing those three fascists wanting to protect Israel
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Apr 30, 2024 02:35
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Shageletic posted:I think realistically, with the amount of pressure on Israel and the US wisens up before Biden loses an election, that Palestinians can beat back the genocide and win. The US is not going to “wise up” because Israel’s role is foundational to how the world works. Cheap energy via oil in the Middle East is only possible in a region that remains underdeveloped and in enough political turmoil that governments and weak and labor is cheap but not too much people start blowing up tankers and trucks. Israel is essential to keeping the Middle East that way, until Israel pushes so far they either unbalance the Middle East too much (like nuking Tehran) until there is a replacement for the Israel’s role to the west in the Middle East, or oil isn’t the blood of the empire the US will not abandon Israel. The liberals with actual levers of powers will be replaced or will become scratched liberals. Biden is actually correct in his intuition to stay with Israel as far as realpolitik goes. What will chance this is (unlikely) US workers forcing action or (a million times more likely) the Palestinian resistance becoming a focal point for pan-Arab nationalism and international solidarity and either over the years outright defeating Israel or scaring the west so much they force a compromise that changes things materially.
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Apr 30, 2024 02:53
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My anecdotal vibes from media is that it's now OK to object to the Netanyahu government- it doesn't necessarily make you anti-semetic! And forgive me for looking for some light but NPR correspondents seem to increasingly be saying the truth one layer down from the layman takeaway.
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Apr 30, 2024 03:23
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Butter Activities posted:The US is not going to “wise up” because Israel’s role is foundational to how the world works. Cheap energy via oil in the Middle East is only possible in a region that remains underdeveloped and in enough political turmoil that governments and weak and labor is cheap but not too much people start blowing up tankers and trucks. Israel is essential to keeping the Middle East that way, until Israel pushes so far they either unbalance the Middle East too much (like nuking Tehran) until there is a replacement for the Israel’s role to the west in the Middle East, or oil isn’t the blood of the empire the US will not abandon Israel. Yeah maybe you're right about the intractability of U.S. twining their fate with Israel, though I'd argue that its an extremely bad case of realpolitik as it is already causing a dominoe effect of negative reprecussions from the inability and sheer hilarity of the current state of U.S. soft power and supposed rules based international advocacy, to overwhelming dislike of the U.S. abroad, to the extent that the U.S. has lost its base/in the process of losing its bases in Niger and Chad due to just sheer anger at U.S. imperalism, along with its mission patrolling the Red and Indian Sea being a complete defeat. Palestinians will win this though.
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Apr 30, 2024 03:28
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BRJurgis posted:My anecdotal vibes from media is that it's now OK to object to the Netanyahu government- it doesn't necessarily make you anti-semetic! My family, who are Jewish, have definitely pivoted to blaming and criticizing Netanyahu in the past few weeks. Which is very amusing, because it wasn't like the guy was above reproach before Oct 7th.
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Apr 30, 2024 03:36
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BRJurgis posted:My anecdotal vibes from media is that it's now OK to object to the Netanyahu government- it doesn't necessarily make you anti-semetic! everyone hates netanyahu, even most(?) isrealis lol there's a ton he should answer for, but he's also a kind scapegoat for US liberals cuz they get to blame israel's ills on him rather than on socio-economic apartheid stuff
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Apr 30, 2024 03:56
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How integral is Netanyahu to Likud? Like if he was to go down would they be able to just pivot to some other leader or would the party dissolve into infighting?
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Apr 30, 2024 04:12
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Butter Activities posted:The US is not going to “wise up” because Israel’s role is foundational to how the world works. Cheap energy via oil in the Middle East is only possible in a region that remains underdeveloped and in enough political turmoil that governments and weak and labor is cheap but not too much people start blowing up tankers and trucks. Israel is essential to keeping the Middle East that way, until Israel pushes so far they either unbalance the Middle East too much (like nuking Tehran) until there is a replacement for the Israel’s role to the west in the Middle East, or oil isn’t the blood of the empire the US will not abandon Israel. This is completely untrue. The United States since the advent of fracking in places like the Permian Basin in the last decade is now a net producer and even open to drilling in Venezuela. The only folks who don't like conflict in the Middle East is Europe but conflict raises prices. It doesn't lower them nor is it in the interest of major producers like the UAE or Saudi Arabi. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 05:16
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Yeah, doesn't most of the Arabian oil go to Europe? I think it really is that the USA doesn't actually remember why it's so hellbent on controlling the middle east at this point, but they're convinced there must be a perfectly good reason.
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Apr 30, 2024 05:44
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Shageletic posted:
For sure. I just feel like once I gave up hope on looking for the solution in American politics (at least, what is allowed to be “political”) activism I’ve gotten involved in is much more meaningful and useful and I’m not driven by anxiety/guilt but hope. Gucci Loafers posted:This is completely untrue. It’s ridiculous to say this completely untrue. The petrodollar is the world currency. The Middle East is obviously of outsized strategic interest, and high degree of connection between the US and gulf monarchies is effective control or influence over a significant chunk of the world’s economy that is technically not as directly connected to the US economy. I’m sorry but arguing that the Middle East and therefore Israel is not important is absurd. Less true than in the past sure, which explains why Israel is behaving more desperately but it’s still mostly true. Even if non-mena oil production plummeted, the west has long been terrified of pan-Arab nationalist or a broad popular muslim political movement getting a foothold over a still significant resource. There’s a reason the west has bankrolled monarchists, and Islamicists, because more secular or populist Arab nationalism is an utterly terrifying threat long term to the world order as it currently exists. The gulf monarchies are content to whittle away their treasure. An Arab nationalist state taking over the region could capitalize insanely rapidly. Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 05:50
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Gucci Loafers posted:This is completely untrue. And the US has heavily invested in an electric transition. All the auto producers are building extremely large battery plants, even with some scaling back it’s still unprecedented. US a net exporter isn’t a temporary trend.
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Apr 30, 2024 06:42
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Internet Explorer posted:My family, who are Jewish, have definitely pivoted to blaming and criticizing Netanyahu in the past few weeks. Which is very amusing, because it wasn't like the guy was above reproach before Oct 7th. Nebalebadingdong posted:everyone hates netanyahu, even most(?) isrealis lol Yeah, it's pretty pathetic and once you see it it's hard to unsee. Criticism of Israel or Zionism seems to exist in some void between "Critical of Netanyahu governments war on Hamas" and being anti-semetic. Whether it's due to people fearing backlash or being true believers is hard to say, but the latter tend to let the mask slip.
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Apr 30, 2024 12:21
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Butter Activities posted:The US is not going to “wise up” because Israel’s role is foundational to how the world works. Cheap energy via oil in the Middle East is only possible in a region that remains underdeveloped and in enough political turmoil that governments and weak and labor is cheap but not too much people start blowing up tankers and trucks. Israel is essential to keeping the Middle East that way, until Israel pushes so far they either unbalance the Middle East too much (like nuking Tehran) until there is a replacement for the Israel’s role to the west in the Middle East, or oil isn’t the blood of the empire the US will not abandon Israel. You don't need Israel for that though. Pan-Arab socialism is dead and buried, most ME leaders are happy with the current situation. If you need a chaos agent to keep things disordered, Islamic extremists like ISIS work better.
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Apr 30, 2024 12:43
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The discussion about the pier got me thinking about how much aid is getting into Gaza right now and how much is still needed. In different news articles, I see conflicting reports on how many trucks enter through the two crossings, how many carry food, and how many would be needed to feed everyone. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68551965 There are multiple conversions between tonnes, truckloads, and meals that I'm struggling to follow, and with local food production, I assume, being completely decimated the number of trucks needed to feed everyone would at least double or triple. What's the most recent in-depth overview of the situation on the ground? Outside of the two crossings, is aid even reaching people who are further away from the border or are there also logistical issues on top of how much aid is allowed in?
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Apr 30, 2024 17:06
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to further add to the confusion, israel regularly reports that they're letting (usually significantly) more trucks through than aid organizations themselves report being allowed through
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Apr 30, 2024 17:22
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Herstory Begins Now posted:to further add to the confusion, israel regularly reports that they're letting (usually significantly) more trucks through than aid organizations themselves report being allowed through Can you provide sources for this because I for one find it unconscionable that Israel would report inaccurate numbers.
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Apr 30, 2024 18:09
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https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-more-aid-is-entering-gaza-figures-disputed-2024-04-09/ you can find similar discrepancies the entire length of the conflict
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Apr 30, 2024 18:13
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