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ASIC v Danny Bro posted:Nah, it's the video where the soldiers are on their knees, in a room, then the video cuts and shows them dead on the floor. Maybe you could shut up about October 7th and the snuff films you've watched, and understand that even if Hamas were literally eating babies, it wouldn't justify the subsequent 4 months of genocide Israel has been doing. Israel is pulling the same dumb argument at the UN. You don't get to do a genocide because someone attacked you, nor does the Holocaust give you a freebie to do one to someone else. The pearl clutching about the Houthis is also pointless. They are claiming to be blockading Israel to oppose a genocide. Whether you believe them is irrelevant. It is enough that the shipping companies believe them. Eilat has seen substantially reduced traffic. This puts economic pressure on Israel to stop the genocide. The rerouting of traffic also gives US-aligned countries an economic reason to want the genocide to stop. You may believe the Houthis are simply using this as an excuse to do piracy. It doesn't matter. The effect of their actions aligns with their claimed goals. What they have in their heart of hearts is completely beside the point. You claim to care about Palestinians, but you seem to spend all your time focusing on the crimes of Hamas and the Houthis, and ignoring the much larger and on-going crime of genocide, and the preceding decades of oppression. Literally every single post of yours in this thread has been criticism of the enemies of Israel, or trying to sow doubt about the crimes of Israel. You never directly say you support the genocide, you just avoid talking about it in favor of talking about what bad guys Israel's enemies are. The most charitable possible reading of your posts is that you're the white moderate MLK was talking about.
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Jan 13, 2024 12:49
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socialsecurity posted:This kind of thinking is bullshit, are you only allowed to ever talk about the worst thing in the world? Like how words a day am I allowed to speak about things other than Israel before it's a twisted knot. It seems lots of people were spreading lies about what the houthis were doing and once shown evidence they retreat to "how dare you not use every post to denounce Israel!"Even when they themselves don't do it. ASIC v Danny Bro posted:There's a lot to discuss in this post, but I wanted to focus on these things specifically. These posts are essentially making the same argument: I know there is a genocide going on in Gaza, but I feel like I should be allowed to discuss in great detail whether the people resisting that genocide are truly moral, and really dig into whatever they might have done wrong. When Israel murders (at least) 23000 people (the vast majority civilians), starves and dehydrates many thousands more, and you want to discuss how immoral the Houthis are for taking civilian hostages, it's hard to read as anything other than deflection, especially when you do it repeatedly. You're doing exactly what right wingers do when they derail discussions of police brutality by shifting focus to whatever crimes the victim may or may not have done. Does that mean we must discuss only the worst thing, and all other subjects are banned? No, but when people start discussing the worst thing, maybe don't make a habit of immediately reaching for "But Hamas". Regarding the assertion that Hamas is responsible for starting this conflict, history did not begin on October 7th. Hamas did not start this conflict. Regarding Al Ahli, the context for this speculation is, as your HRW link helpfully points out, that Israel has been bombing hospitals and other civilian infrastructure regularly (187 documented attacks on health care infrastructure alone, as found by the WHO). Even if the attack on Al Ahli were definitively proven to have been done by Hamas (and it currently is not, the HRW investigation is not conclusive), it would still be reasonable in the period of doubt for people to guess that Israel did it, because it would be just another in a long string of such attacks by Israel. I wouldn't call "Israel did a kind of thing that Israel is known for doing" "wild speculation". quote:It seems lots of people were spreading lies about what the houthis were doing and once shown evidence they retreat That is not what happened.
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Jan 13, 2024 14:54
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socialsecurity posted:The Houthis are not resisting any Genocide, Hamas is. The Houthis have done some ethnic cleansing of their own. The Houthis are not Hamas and them claiming they are doing the same thing they've been doing for a decade suddenly in support of Hamas is a claim that requires some level of evidence, which has not been provided. I don't understand how you read my post above and conclude that I must really want to discuss the degree to which the Houthis are no angels? You are choosing to focus on whether we can divine the true intent of the Houthis, because you think they might be lying when they claim to be blockading Israel to help Gaza. The point I made above is that it doesn't matter. The effects of the attacks have been in line with the stated goal, which is to put economic pressure on Israel and western countries. They are clearly succeeding at that, since the US is bombing Yemen now. In terms of the effects their actions are having, the Houthis are providing pressure to end a genocide. Is it possible they have an ulterior motive? Yes. Does that make this pressure bad or tainted somehow? No, not unless the genocide ends and the Houthis decide to continue attacking shipping. socialsecurity posted:There's no proof of this, if you could provide some sort of documentation that the near decade of ship attacks are all on Israeli linked ships it would help. This post makes me think you are misunderstanding what people are saying. No one has claimed all ship attacks by the Houthis in the last decade were to put pressure on Israel and western countries over Gaza. The Houthis don't claim that either. We're talking about the recent spate of attacks. Esran fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 16:15
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No, it doesn't go both ways. Israel and Hamas (and the Palestinians) are not on remotely even footing, and are not close to equally responsible for the situation in Palestine. Disregarding whether attacks are justified, which is not a productive discussion because that just boils down to your personal morals, Israel is solely responsible for creating the conditions that led to the October 7th attacks. If Israel wanted, they could have resolved this conflict peacefully at any point since at least the Oslo accords. They don't want to, since they want an ethnostate and lebensraum, and have created this situation instead. The choice offered to Palestinians is a fast genocide like they're getting now, or a slow genocide like they were getting before. If Hamas were to decide tomorrow to lay down their arms, the result would simply be a return to the slow ethnic cleansing and annexation of the Palestinian territories. Condemning the concentration camp inmates for resisting, as if they are as equally at fault as the camp guards, is terrible moral reasoning.
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Jan 13, 2024 17:51
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Madkal posted:This is just victim blaming and saying that Hamas cannot be hold accountable for anything it does because they are...what...incapable of not raping and killing? You are misunderstanding what is meant when we say Israel is responsible. It's not that Hamas are pure and good angelic beings of light, and so they can't be blamed for anything they do. It's that the power balance between Israel and the Palestinians is so grossly tilted in the favor of Israel, that anything that happens is a consequence of Israeli choices. Israel has chosen to turn Gaza into a concentration camp, and to keep the population there under their boot. Palestinians have had no choice in this. When Palestinians react predictably, by resisting and attacking their oppressors, it is wrong to treat Israel as "the victim". The only way to view Israel as the victim is if you choose to forget that Israel is the only one with the power to prevent this situation, by not oppressing the Palestinians.
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Jan 13, 2024 18:47
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Irony Be My Shield posted:There was some misreporting initially but nobody's mind is going to be changed once they learn that Hamas prefers to shoot or set babies on fire rather than decapitate them, or that it ""only"" murdered 14 children under the age of 10 in cold blood. It's still an unbelievably heinous crime that fully justified a response from Israel, and therefore gave them cover to carry out reprisals against Palestinian civilians. No. Israel is running a concentration camp. When the inmates revolt, it doesn't "justify a response from" the camp guards, no matter how heinous a crime the inmates commit. That fact aside, Israel has at this point murdered many thousands of children. I suppose you will be applying your own logic fairly, and calling for Hamas to provide a justified response?
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Jan 14, 2024 12:23
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Kalit posted:Can this poster get probated for continually strawmanning, ignoring sources because of reasons, refusing to accept a number of their claims being false, and posting in bad faith in general? I know I'm not supposed to complain out loud about bad faith posting, but the few reports I've done over the past days when I've seen this stupid poo poo has resulted in nothing. Someone disagreeing with you does not mean they're posting in bad faith, and you putting faith in different sources from them does not mean they don't believe what they're saying, especially when they've bothered to explain why they don't believe the same sources as you. But sure, call the manager.
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Jan 14, 2024 17:17
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Madkal posted:See I'm seeing people go no "no proof of beheaded babies" while at the same time posting about the IDF killing Israelis while this has been disproven again and again. Maybe you should read the article you're linking to. Nothing in that piece attempts to disprove the assertion that the IDF killed Israelis. The piece is attempting to rebut a claim that there was no mass shooting at all on October 7th. That's not what anyone is talking about in this thread. Even if the article had been relevant, I have to question your ability to evaluate sources when you cite an article which mainly sources the Israeli government, the Israeli PM and the US government (who were given the information by the Israelis, and when asked if they trust the information go "Not our job to fact check lol"). You're trying to convince people who have already told you they don't trust Israel. Why would this convince anyone?
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Jan 14, 2024 18:04
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I'm sure the people of Gaza would be crushed to learn of the US dialing back their involvement, and of the removal of Joe Biden from office. Also, are you saying Gaza is Israel's territory? Edit: I don't disagree that this is unrealistic, and that the US government is so rotten with Zionists that doing something like this might actually cause Biden to be impeached. Esran fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jan 14, 2024 |
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Jan 14, 2024 19:00
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Main Paineframe posted:Well, you can just click the previous page button and look at exactly who started talking about decapitated babies and what argument they were making. I know that's not as easy or as satisfying as making a blind assumption based on your preconceptions, but it's still worth doing. As far as I can tell, these were the people first who brought up the beheaded babies in this conversation: Yes, and if you click a couple more times, you will see that those comments were in response to the guy complaining that people were discussing the genocide, and not the actions of Hamas on October 7th, and if only we saw the execution video, we'd understand. So really, you can just rephrase the question a bit: "Why do these arguments about what Hamas did on October 7th keep coming up?". If everyone agrees that the crimes of Hamas can't justify a genocide, and everyone agrees that Israel is doing one, then what possible reasons could there be for this topic to become the focus repeatedly? small butter posted:But nobody here is actually arguing that Israel is "right" or justified in killing 23k civilians. Yes, that's clearly indefensible, but people sure are eager to spend endless pages figuring out exactly who Hamas killed on October 7th, or reading the mind of the Houthi pirate, or sharing their grave concerns about sailors being taken hostage, really when you think about it, aren't both sides bad? small butter posted:the attack was antisemitic, and was coupled with a call to murder Jews worldwide wherever they lived Can you share a source? Esran fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Jan 14, 2024 |
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Jan 14, 2024 20:36
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Main Paineframe posted:Because whether or not Hamas' actions morally justify a genocide, Hamas' actions aren't something that can just be ignored either. They have a significant political and diplomatic impact, which affects both Israeli domestic politics and world diplomatic relationships with the various Palestinian factions. Any resolution to the conflict is inevitably going to need to consider both the impact of Israel's actions on Gaza and the impact of Hamas' actions on Israel. And yeah, the latter is probably going to weigh disproportionately heavily, because Israel has most of the power here and because most of the countries likely to have any say in the result already hated Hamas and are going to inherently sympathize with the Westernized modern military against the Islamic guerilla terrorists. I don't know that I think this is true. It seems like the Israel-aligned world largely takes Israel's claims at face value, and have condemned Hamas as a matter of course. I haven't seen many countries sympathetic to the Palestinians spend much time waffling on support due to the actions of Hamas either. But regardless, even if nailing down the actions of Hamas are very important to defining a peace agreement, or understanding the diplomatic standing of Israel and Hamas with other countries, or understanding Israel's internal politics, that doesn't seem to be the reason they're being brought up in this thread. The people that brought up the crimes of Hamas have shown little interest in discussing these subjects.
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Jan 14, 2024 22:19
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386-SX 25Mhz VGA posted:I’m thinking this has got to be the mechanism for memory-holing a genocide. If the debate and discussion about a conflict focuses 90+% on everything except the genocide, with the genocide only being brought up occasionally by a few nagging voices, then what will the collective memory of the genocide-causing conflict look like? The only memory will be about 10/7, or about the Houthis or whatever other digression comes up in the future, but all those kids and innocent people in mass graves or buried under rubble in Gaza will be forgotten in most of the English- (or German-)speaking world. Not implying posters in this thread are bringing up October 7th for this reason, but it is definitely a way to make the conflict seem more even than it is. If you can make the conflict sound like two evenly matched sides doing Bad Things to each other as part of a war, you can equivocate, and roundly condemn all sides for the Bad Things they did. When you describe it accurately, as an uprising of inmates in a concentration camp, it becomes pretty obvious why focusing on the crimes of the rebelling inmates is an extremely weird thing to do. Esran fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Jan 14, 2024 |
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Jan 14, 2024 22:59
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I agree with the PE's post, but would add that at least a few people (including myself) have expressed the additional reservation that as Israel is an occupying power operating a concentration camp, and as it is the party that pretty much controls the living conditions in Gaza, the responsibility for the outcomes of that policy falls on Israel. Israel has chosen to imprison and slowly genocide the population of Gaza. Any atrocities that follow from that are Israel's fault, since they could easily change the conditions that are fueling support for Hamas, and are choosing not to. Esran fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Jan 15, 2024 |
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Jan 15, 2024 00:20
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Some insurers have decided to take Ansar Allah at their word, and are deciding to refuse coverage for US, UK and Israel-linked ships. https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/insurers-seek-to-exclude-us-uk-ships-from-red-sea-coverage-1.2022613 The article posted:“Underwriters are adding clauses saying no US, UK or Israeli involvement,” he said. “Just about everybody is putting something like that in, and many include the words ‘ownership’ or ‘interest’.” At this point, it simply doesn't matter whether the Houthis are lying when they say they're doing this for the benefit of Gaza. The world is reacting as if they are. rscott posted:Definitely the only democracy in the middle east with equal rights for all and not an ethno nationalist apartheid state: The Zionist project's explicit goal is a Jewish State, led by (the right kind of) Jews, i.e. an ethnostate. Granting other races and religions equal rights conflicts with the core concept. An obsession with racial purity follows on very naturally from this.
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Jan 17, 2024 01:52
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youcallthatatwist posted:https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd1c-_56yYGTJNit_GjUB-th5C8M4SKapOibN8vsmicakWNCA/viewform They're the same picture.
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Jan 17, 2024 22:12
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Civilized Fishbot posted:The idea that civilians are just as morally accountable for crimes committed by other people, to the point of a vigilante death sentence, because they're a citizen of s criminal state or share an ethnic identity with a criminal ethnostate, is morally preposterous. It served and serves as the pretense to some of the most serious crimes against humanity in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries, including the genocide Israel is perpetrating right now. I agree that analogizing to individuals is pointless as you say, but I'm not seeing people claiming Israeli civilians morally deserve to be killed either (I'm excluding settlers here, those aren't civilians). What people are saying is that the blame for Israeli deaths lies entirely with Israel, because Israel has chosen to attempt a genocide on a captive population, giving those people no way out. Israel's leaders aren't complete idiots, ignoring all evidence to the contrary. They're well aware that attempting to eradicate the Palestinians will result in some Palestinians resisting, and they're also aware that such resistance will sometimes affect Israeli civilians. It's completely unrealistic to expect Hamas to kill no civilians, the most well funded and trained armies in the world don't manage that. It's also completely unreasonable to expect the Palestinians to willingly lay down and die. Israel's leadership considers these deaths an acceptable cost of doing business. If they didn't, they would have released the Palestinians decades ago. Talking about whether Israeli civilians "deserved" death is a mostly pointless discussion. Whether they deserved it or not, they're dead, and it's Israel's fault.
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Jan 18, 2024 20:12
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I think saying "the blame lies with Israel" is exactly analogizing to an individual, and makes it impossible to distinguish between "the blame lies with Bibi Netanyahu and his cabinet" or "the blame lies with Netanyahu and everyone who voted him in" or "the blame lies with Netanyahu and every Israeli citizen who didn't take action to stop him" or "the blame lies with every Israeli citizen, including the ones who were killed" or "the blame lies with every Israel citizen except the obviously oppressed ones, so really just the Israeli Jews" or "the blame lies with everyone who considers themselves invested in Israel as a project, whether they're citizens or not, so most Jews in the world and many non-Jews as well" etc Okay, then let me clarify what I meant. I meant that the blame lies with Israel's current and past governments, and all the people who decided a fascist ethnostate was a cool project. I'm responding to your assertion that people in this thread are arguing "in defense of the murder of civilians on October 7th" on the grounds that those civilians were deserving of death in some personal moral sense, and that " It's popular to believe that every Israeli on October 7th had it coming for paying taxes to the IDF". I don't think people are arguing that.
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Jan 18, 2024 21:09
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Koos Group posted:Settlers would be considered civilians by the standard definition, which is a person who is not a member of the armed forces or police force. I think settlers can be meaningfully viewed as "not civilians" if we're talking about "civilians" as a group Hamas should not attack, which was the meaning that was being used in this discussion. Under international law, Israel is prohibited from transferring its own population into occupied territories, which is exactly what they're doing when they don't prevent settlers from invading Palestine. Israel has also been handing out guns to the settlers for "self defense", and those settler organizations have "security teams" and "civilian armouries". When we're talking about "civilians" as a group of people Hamas should be condemned for attacking, I don't think we should include a group of people with guns (provided by the government or otherwise), who are invading and occupying the territory of another country. Esran fucked around with this message at 11:58 on Jan 20, 2024 |
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Jan 20, 2024 11:04
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I'm not saying people killed in October were settlers. I was responding to a poster who felt that posters in this thread were defending "the murder of civilians". I responded that I don't think posters (me and others) are cheering when Israeli civilians are killed. We just consider the current and past governments of Israel to be responsible for these deaths. In that post, I included a parenthetical that I don't think settlers should be categorized as civilians. It wasn't really relevant to the main point of the post.
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Jan 20, 2024 16:22
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I think this reading assigns way too little agency to Biden as president. Reagan and Bush Sr. were both perfectly capable of yanking the leash. If Biden really wanted to, he could do any number of things to rein in Israel. You can't really blame election concerns or the difficulty of working with Congress, when the man literally went around Congress to hand Israel even more munitions to throw at Gaza in the middle of this genocide. The truth is Biden is fine with what's happening, or he at least doesn't feel strongly enough about it to do more than lightly scold Netanyahu. I'd remind you that Biden has been an ardent Zionist for half a century at this point, he was the top scorer on pro-Israel donations in the Senate. There's no reason to believe that Biden secretly really wants to help Palestine and can't. Edit: I'll also add that the note on Trump is silly lesser-evilism. You're basically saying that Trump would be much worse than Biden, because while they will both help Israel genocide the Palestinians, Trump might also try to make some money off it on the side. quote:I have no idea if he'd gain or lose votes by cutting them free I think you are using the same type of argumentation that people used to defend Obama's right-wing policies. Somehow when it comes to doing good things, the Democrat executive is entirely powerless, but if handed to Trump, it becomes very powerful all of a sudden. The executive is apparently powerful enough to allow the president to send weapons to Israel with no oversight. Is that also a thing Biden has no choice in? Esran fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jan 20, 2024 |
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Jan 20, 2024 18:45
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He could choose not to send them extra guns beyond what he thinks Congress would approve. He's sending those guns anyway, because he wants to support Israel. Is it really meaningful to discuss the hypothetical reasons Biden could not stop Israel if he wanted to, when it's obvious to everyone that he doesn't want to? Esran fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jan 20, 2024 |
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Jan 20, 2024 19:13
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There is no reason to believe Biden believes anything other than what his action demonstrate. His actions are entirely consistent with his entire career up to this point. Speculating that he may secretly hold less toxic beliefs is sadly wishful thinking. I agree that there is no will to stop this genocide in the US, Israel or most of the West, and it is unrealistic to expect a change of heart at this point. This is one of the reasons you'll find people cheering at things like Yemen's blockade: Whether Ansar Allah is pure of heart or not, their ability to impede traffic is indicating that the US is growing less capable of imposing its will on the world. For the Palestinians, a diminished US would be a clear improvement.
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Jan 20, 2024 20:39
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BougieBitch posted:Not that measuring milli-Hitlers is productive, but logically if we are talking about the genocide of Palestinians the Hitler is Netanyahu, making Biden a Chamberlain or something - the crime is failing to intervene when it could be stopped, not committing it himself I don't think Chamberlain is a good comparison, Biden is not just failing to intervene, he's actively and materially supporting the genocide. So the crime is committing genocide by proxy. Kalit posted:As a reminder, anyone who has a chance of becoming the president wouldn’t prevent the genocide. And if you’re against the genocide, abstaining from voting will most likely help a candidate who would cheer on a faster genocide Going back to VBNMW is disgusting in the context of Biden helping to do a genocide. You're saying there's no low you will not allow your team to stoop to, as long as the other team is marginally worse. You're handing the party your permission to become the worst possible version of themselves, to the point of them supporting a genocide. Why would a candidate have the slightest concern for your moral qualms? You're openly saying you'll ignore those qualms and support them anyway. If a Russian says they support Putin, will you also wring your hands and say "Oh, that's okay. Support for a candidate is not an endorsement of every political view of said candidate"? Esran fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 11:35
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I think a principled objection to supporting Hitler should also include a principled objection to a state that violently represses and expels religious minorities, and which flagrantly abuses human rights in its territories. That is either whataboutism or a weird equivocation between two arguments that aren't really similar at all. This argument is saying it is inconsistent to condemn Hitler for eliminating undesirables, when the British Empire also did crimes against humanity. Can't support the Americans either, on account of their crimes against black people and Native Americans. I'm sure we can point to some massacre the Soviet Union did before WW2 that disqualifies them as well. We should just roundly condemn everyone. You seem to agree that this is not a reasonable way to view the world. That's not what YBoH is arguing, though. They're saying that if your political system continually presents you with a choice between two Hitlers, that political system is broken and must be replaced, so instead of spending your effort electing either Hitler, you should "start trying to organise against your political system.". This is in response to a poster who saw people were complaining about Biden's support for a genocide, and decided that "Hey guys, just remember, Trump would do the genocide slightly faster, so this is no excuse not to continue to support Biden. Remember to Vote!" was the right response. Do you really not see how these are not equivalent at all? It is completely logically consistent to support bad people doing a good thing and also think it's idiotic to badger people to support the political career of Hitler, simply because the managed democracy they live in only allows for selecting different brands of Hitler. I'd also point out that if your political strategy is to always support Lesser Hitler, your political beliefs can be entirely ignored by the political class. Why would anyone bother to try to appeal to you, your support is unconditional. We're seeing a similar dynamic between Israel and the US: Why would Israel care what the US has to say, the US has already made clear that there is nothing Israel can do that will make the US stop the flow of money and weapons.
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Jan 21, 2024 19:29
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I think the point of these posts wasn't that people are waiting for Donald the Dove to appear on the ballot. It was to point out how absolutely dogshit both parties are on this issue, so even making the right noises would be an improvement. Esran fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 20:02
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On brand, they were stealing corpses and bulldozing cemeteries last week.
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Jan 21, 2024 20:25
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I am sincerely disturbed by people saying "...and you know what, it's not so bad what they do to the Bahais and women, and they have some good points about the Jews, and the civilians they're killing chose the wrong team..." Civilized Fishbot posted:In this thread, just the one case, here. I'm responding to a user saying that the Houthis aren't actually antisemitic, they've just fallen for Israeli propaganda. I don't know guy, I feel like those two aren't really the same thing. Civilized Fishbot posted:"Jews secretly run America" is in fact a Nazi lie, the kind that gets people killed. Since you had to go digging in posts from December to find something offensive, you should probably include the rest of what that user wrote, which should make it obvious to you that they aren't saying Jews secretly run America. moths posted:I'm really not sure what to tell you. So this user isn't saying that "Jews secretly run America" is accurate. They're saying the Yemenis are using "Israel" and "Jews" interchangeably (just like Israel wants), and that's how they can arrive at "Jews secretly run America": Because Israel gets everything it wants from America. I don't know whether it's accurate that Yemenis understand that phrase this way, but you're really badly misrepresenting what that user said. vvv Inserted a link back to moths post to make clear who said what. Esran fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 22:49
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Civilized Fishbot posted:They're responding to "the Houthis say the Jews secretly run America" with "there's evidence for what they're saying." Come on. No, they're responding to "The Houthis say the Jews secretly run America" with "By 'the Jews' they mean Israel, and If you've only ever seen Israel get everything it wants from the US, you might shorthand that as 'Israel controls America'". Which is extremely different from quote:They're responding to "the Houthis say the Jews secretly run America" with "there's evidence for what they're saying." So you come on.
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Jan 21, 2024 23:04
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You can keep reinterpreting that user's post to fit your belief that this thread is full of antisemites, but that's not what they said. They said that they thought the Houthis were talking about Israel, and that it is very reasonable for someone who doesn't know better, looking at the relationship between Israel and the US, to conclude that Israel has some hold over America. That's not remotely the same as what you claimed they said. Also I like how you decided to conflate Israel with Jews yourself, nice work. Edit: Also, no one said this quote:And you can understand how they struggle to tell the good Jews apart from the evil Jews, we gotta cut them some slack on that one Please stop making up things people didn't say to get mad at. Esran fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Jan 21, 2024 |
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Jan 21, 2024 23:22
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Kalit posted:Looks like they’re going all in on trying to garner as much sympathy as possible by putting out this propaganda piece. Or maybe propaganda piece is the wrong phrase, as it seems to be filled with outright lies You're just deciding based on your personal biases that these are lies. Israel has refused allowing anyone other than themselves to investigate what happened on October 7th, have been preemptively raving about how any organization that might perform such an investigation (like the UN Human Rights Council or the ICJ) are antisemites, and were in a real hurry to literally bury the evidence of what happened at the festival. Esran fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Jan 22, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 09:20
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I mean Hamas' version of events is that they took civilian hostages, which is unambiguously a war crime. It's probably more that Hamas is confident Israel will not allow any such investigation to take place (although one wonders if the ICC could just issue warrants for Hamas' leadership given that they do not dispute their guilt). Everyone not living under a rock, including the ICC, already knows Hamas took civilian hostages. We know because it was covered extensively at the time, Hamas admitted to doing it and laid out why they did it (to exchange them for hostages Israel has taken), and then it was covered again when Hamas released a bunch of those hostages in exchange for hostages held by Israel. As you know, Israel has also taken civilian hostages, have murdered 25.000 people, of whom the vast majority are civilians (and a substantial fraction are children), and have starved and dehydrated hundreds of thousands. As Hamas is responsible for only a tiny fraction of the war crimes committed by Israel, it is perfectly reasonable for Hamas to assume Israel will come off worse at the ICC, and you don't need to invent some hidden motivation for Hamas to admit to something they've already previously admitted to.
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Jan 22, 2024 10:07
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In a desperate attempt to help this thread find literally any other subject than the endless discussion of whether the genocide victims were resisting in The Right Way on October 7th: The Danish national broadcaster interviewed a couple of Danish-born people who have been part of the IDF, and I thought the interview with the younger was kind of interesting. https://www-dr-dk.translate.goog/ny...&_x_tr_pto=wapp As the child of a Danish mother and an Israeli father, this guy lived in Denmark and occasionally visited family in Israel. During one of these visits in 2014, he gets press ganged by the IDF. His description of his time in the IDF implies that he found the IDF to be an amateurish organization, and the general atmosphere to be uncaring and brutal even back then. I replaced a few words in the machine translation for accuracy of meaning. quote:I remember being amazed at how disorganized it all seemed. It was an army of 18-19-year-olds whose main goal was to seem cool in each other's eyes. I think this perspective is a good reminder that Israel isn't just some otherwise normal country that suffered an attack that has caused it to lash out excessively. It's a Nazi state that sees the Palestinians as subhuman, with the (poorly disciplined) military culture that follows from that, and it has been for a long time. Considering how Hamas appears to be pantsing the IDF in Gaza, and considering how Israel treats their own citizens who step out of line, I doubt much has improved in the last decade. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Esran fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Jan 23, 2024 |
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Jan 22, 2024 23:56
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Kalit posted:TBH, if Breitbart or Newsmax had interviewed a lefty politician I was a fan of, I would probably take a step back and wonder the intention. And probably would not want to give that interview any additional attention. I don't think this is a reasonable stance to take on media consumption, and it's not a stance that helps you avoid bias. It's no less slanted than when people disregard news they don't like because it's being reported in the "liberal media". If a media organization you don't trust publishes an interview with someone, you should by all means consider why they published it, whether they manipulated the footage, asked leading questions, failed to contextualize things properly, check if the person being interviewed complained about being misrepresented later on, and all the other things you might do with a source you don't trust. What you should absolutely not do is try to "not give that interview additional attention" or in other ways disregard it simply because you don't like the source. When you do this, you're not being media literate, you're enforcing an echo chamber that only permits certain approved voices. That's a problem in general, but especially in cases like this. Western mainstream media is openly hostile to most of the people opposed to Israel (and I would expect vice versa). When you decide that people must disregard non-Western state media even when you can't point to evidence of tampering, you're essentially just completely preventing the words of the interviewed person from reaching you. You said you think "blind acceptance" is bad. Blind rejection isn't better.
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Jan 24, 2024 18:45
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Regarding what the PM of (Houthi) Yemen said in the interview, I can't help but notice how his argumentation is exactly the opposite of how western polticians talk about any large problem, most notably climate change. He's saying that people who argue that the US and aligned countries have the muscle to force their will on countries like Yemen, but if everyone thinks that way and give up preemptively, no one will ever be liberated. Esran fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Jan 24, 2024 |
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Jan 24, 2024 19:58
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Alchenar posted:I mean, bold statement for an Iranian client to take. I don't expect you to agree, considering the opinions you've expressed in this thread, but it's pretty ridiculous of you to imply that the leader of a country is talking poo poo because he thinks Iran will protect him from the US, when that country is currently being bombed by the US. It is not "rewriting of history" when people disagree on what happened. The US put economic pressure on the UK, while the USSR armed Egypt and threatened to bomb Britain, France and Israel. While it is likely that it was the US pressure that caused Britain to back down, it isn't exactly "rewriting of history" for people in the region to credit the USSR for helping to end the conflict. You might also consider the very obvious reasons the leader of a country currently being bombed by the US might want to emphasize the aid of the USSR over the aid of the US in resolving the Suez crisis.
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Jan 24, 2024 21:50
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Yeah, considering how Israel can at most be said to be at a stalemate, if not outright losing the military conflict, that deal isn't in Palestine's interest at all. Israel gets: Hostages Time to recover and rearm Time to further attempt to starve the population of Gaza Hamas gets: A two month staycation in the rubble before the genocide resumes? Edit: By losing, I mean Israel isn't achieving either of its goals: Eradicating Hamas, or ethnically cleansing the Gaza Strip. In the meantime, they're severely hurting their own economy. Esran fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Jan 24, 2024 |
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Jan 24, 2024 22:03
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Most likely this deal exists so we can get headlines about how Hamas rejected a ceasefire. I'd be very surprised if Israel actually expected Hamas to agree to this. Also hasn't Israel been claiming that the leaders of Hamas are already living billionaire lifestyles abroad, to try to make the organization seem hypocritical? It must be other leaders they're offering free passage out of Gaza to. Esran fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Jan 24, 2024 |
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Jan 24, 2024 22:16
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I hear Russia is also behind BLM, Hillary running a bad campaign, people being mad about inequality and rumors about Biden being a sex pest. Putin also shat in Jerry Nadler's pants that one time. Edit: To keep this a bit more relevant https://twitter.com/FranceskAlbs/status/1751554749659324847 The UN special rapporteur on human rights in the occupied Palestinian territories thinks that defunding the UNRWA, as Biden has just done, may violate the Genocide Convention. Esran fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Jan 28, 2024 |
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Jan 28, 2024 20:57
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/gantz-war-against-hamas-could-last-an-entire-generation-hostages-must-remain-top-priority/ posted:War cabinet minister Benny Gantz tells residents of the evacuated southern communities that the war against Hamas could last “10 years, or even an entire generation" https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/accusation-of-war-crimes-lodged-at-icj-against-idf-reservists-who-went-to-the-hague/ posted:a social media post from one of the reservists came to light, in which he referenced the Amalekites, the biblical enemy of the ancient Israelites, in relation to Hamas So it's a forever war against an Other, which is simultaneously so weak that victory is not in question, but so strong that a war against them could last a decade or more, and the conflict against the Other is cast in mythical terms, and Israel believes the Other has corrupted institutions like the UN.  Edit: Just want to point out that Israel presumably hand picked these soldiers to go to The Hague. Do they really not have soldiers that are presentable enough that they can go to The Hague without becoming another bullet in the list of subjects the ICJ needs to look into? Esran fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Jan 29, 2024 |
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Jan 29, 2024 00:13
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https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/unrwa-staff-took-part-in-oct-7-massacre-and-kidnapping-report-details posted:Israel’s biggest criticism of UNRWA is that unlike the UNHCR, the agency defines refugee status as hereditary and irrespective of citizenship in other countries, resulting in the number of Palestinian refugees increasing over time. https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1751480836682399772 Israel openly wants to get rid of the UNRWA, because Israel wants ethnically cleansed Palestinians to stay out and not get ideas about their kids returning later. E2M2 posted:Right, they first said they got the information from forced confessions. Then they manufacture some calls just like they have months past and make some fake dossier. I'm sure all very above board like the proof that the hospitals are actually command and control centers. I'm sure the intelligence they obtained is very legit, and the people in those phone calls don't pronounce it "Khamas". Esran fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Jan 29, 2024 |
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Jan 29, 2024 21:31
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