Israel/Palestine

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(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

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Somebody fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jan 24, 2024

# ¿ Dec 7, 2015 03:34

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 10:45

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

The Insect Court posted:

So isn't that just a repost of A.A's communique from the previous thread? Implying that you've decided on your own "authority" to restart the I/P thread? Just askin' questions here. Because if that's the case...

laffo

Please leave my thread you antisemitic sack of poo poo.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2015 13:10

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Nolgthorn posted:

Israel isn't committing a genocide of any kind. If they wanted to they could have done so at any time a long time ago, and probably saved themselves a lot of problems in having done it. Instead they spend extraordinary amounts of money trying to minimise casualties.

The Iron dome didn't come about through staging a genocide it is a state of the art defensive system. Staging a genocide would involve manufacturing a PR campaign against your enemy first and foremost, it would probably involve scaling up casualties on your own side. You wouldn't build an Iron dome. You would put people in the way of targets, such as what "Palestine" and their majority elected government absolutely provably has. That's a war crime.

It has been said before that if Palestine 'put down their guns' the conflict would be over. If Israel 'put down their guns' there would be no more Israel, and that's the truth.

Palestine is and has always been a region, not a country. Nobody declared themselves a state until 1988, more than 20 years after Israel was there. Didn't apply for international recognition until 2011.

There are many muslims and arabs living in Israel. There are no israelis or jews living in Gaza. There are mosques in Israel. After the 6 day war, yet another war started by its neighbours, Israel granted permanent Israeli residency to all people living in East Jerusalem. There is today a large muslim population because of that.

Before the campaign in Gaza Israel evacuated a huge area closest to the Israeli border, and the best places to launch rockets from. What did Hamas do, they moved back with everyone else. Into schools, into hospitals, and launched their rockets from there. Israel isn't new in the area, they underwent an incredible amount of restraint before ever doing anything other than diplomatic about the terrorism problem. Now it seems like whenever this country does anything everyone is willing to jump down their throats. They are surrounded on all sides by internationally recognised terrorist organisations, which ideologically and theologically demand the extinction of jews. Not Israel, but rather literally the extinction of jews, the ethnoreligious demographic.

Israel has a comprehensive set of rules that they follow in their dealings with terrorist threats. One of those rules involves the demolition of terrorist homes. That incentivises others who live in the home to turn terrorists in, to save the home. Israel has successfully reduced the threat to its citizens dramatically.

Yet they still are attacked just about daily by what else, knives now, and stones. Still they haven't gone all Donald Trump about the situation, this should be a story of virtue.

Collective punishment of populations in occupied territories is a war crime.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2015 16:02

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Israeli territorial annexations are all illegal under international law, both formally through the UN, and informally through lack of general recognition.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2015 16:40

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Nolgthorn posted:

Nasser declared war and then Iraq moved troops into Jordan, was it something like that? That seems approximately or exactly what happened. I feel bothered that I have to actually write that here or else people who don't do any research will just sit and assume that maybe Israel started the 6 day war, because that guy on the internet insinuated it.

Are you talking about east jerusalem, because other than that I don't know what you're talking about. Why not instead of being vague just talk about what you're talking about, for my benefit and everyone else. The situation with jerusalem is so ridiculous, it was being contested between Jordan and Israel in 1948. Then in 1988 the PLO decided that it was the capital of the state of palestine, the same time it decided palestine was a state.

Dunno why you'd be talking about jerusalem in a response to a post which specifically only talked about Gaza. Other than the fact that you for some reason think Gaza is annexed by Israel.

You said that Gaza was Israel's, which is false because any territorial annexation would have been illegal, and false because it wasn't part of the Israeli part of the partition agreement, and false because, by the logic where Palestine isn't a real nation, Gaza is Philistine territory. Similarly, most of Israel is illegally-occupied Judean and Edomite territory.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2015 17:02

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Nolgthorn posted:

According to who, Hamas? Which one of the other terrorist groups said that. How do you get them to send their newsletter so far, so like do you have to pay for postage on that or do they cover it for you. Do you use a PO box, so that you aren't suspected of being a terrorist or terrorist sympathiser or how do you do it.

There's a Golan Heights occupied territory.

After a war there is always a period of occupation, to ensure safety. The territory was taken from Syria and Israel offered to resolve the occupation as quickly as possible with Syria, in exchange for a peace agreement. Which seems utterly reasonable to me. But not to Syria so it remains occupied.

If Palestine isn't a real nation, and Israel is, on the grounds you have copy-pasted out, then Israel's legitimacy derives from the existence of the historical Kingdom of Israel. Nevertheless, modern Israel has also illegally incorporated territories of the Kingdom of Judah, the Philistine city-states, and the Edomite peoples into its borders, by these standards. I don't hold with these standards, but you seem to.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2015 17:42

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

The Insect Court posted:

Off to a great start with the new I/P thread. Aren't there like three different offsite LF refugee forums you could go post in, instead of trying to resurrect it?

In actual news, Erdogan seems to be practicing a 'one in, one out' enemies list.
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.692478

Memes like "LF refugee" are banned in this thread.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2015 23:40

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

botany posted:

says who

Me, the author of this thread.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2015 23:45

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

SedanChair posted:

I...does it work like that?

I declare that it works like that now.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2015 23:46

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

botany posted:

you're not a mod, you're a super terrible poster who's been run out of several threads though ??????

It's actually a probation-worthy offense to be rude in D&D now. Watch yourself.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2015 23:49

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

botany posted:

jokes on you, im actually very good looking.

I don't understand what this has to do with anything that has been said in this thread by anyone. Is this some sort of recognition signal for some asinine secret society?

# ¿ Dec 17, 2015 23:51

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

The Insect Court posted:

This sort of comment helps to demonstrate just how divorced from reality the extremist anti-Zionist fringe truly is. Would you like me to project out population growth in the Gaza Strip and West Bank to show you how absurd an idea that is? Are you honestly ignorant that the Palestinian Territories have some of the highest population growth rates in the world? Gaza's last year was 2.91%, the 13th highest in the world. Does collision with reality alter your opinion whatsoever, or will you assert this is evidence that the Zionists are just sitting back and letting the Palestinian population expand so there will be more to slaughter in the future?

On a related note, this seems as good a place as any to introduce Robert Wistrich's theory that one of the hallmarks of ideological 'new antisemitism' is the rhetorical equation of Zionism with Nazism.

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-wistrich-f04.htm

I admit I find the argument somewhat compelling.

The obsession with the fecundity of the subjected peoples is a hallmark of the racist. The "virile Latin", "where all the white women at?", "we must preserve the existence of our people and a future for White children." It's a critical part of the reduction of the subaltern to a bestial status.

# ¿ Dec 19, 2015 12:09

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

The problem with interacting with Israel's defenders is that they treat other people as if they were themselves, so naturally being "pro-Palestinian" means that you are secretly working to annihilate Israel and Judaism. After all, they are secretly working to annihilate Palestinians. It would require a great deal of psychological and psychiatric intervention to get them capable of having a meaningful conversation.

# ¿ Dec 22, 2015 00:56

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Kim Jong Il posted:

AA, how is this not worthy of probation?

The same reason any given post accusing people of being secretly antisemitic is not worthy of probation, and probations for them generally occur when it happens repeatedly or the person does them reflexively. But you'll get your wish soon enough.

# ¿ Dec 22, 2015 03:04

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

My god. Not Zimbabwe. I well remember the white genocide that took place on the ascension of ZANU-PF.

Seriously, if the worst that could be expected from the Palestinian Right of Return is some expropriation and a brief outburst of violence, even given all the magic involved in making that happen...

# ¿ Dec 23, 2015 16:16

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

The Insect Court posted:

Are you really going to go this route when the major story in I/P conflict over the past several months have been the stabbings of Israelis? Are we going to pretend that out of the twenty-ish fatalities(and many more casualties) including several very recent ones the fact that the stabbing the usual suspects find time to condemn(and can't fit in any mention of any other) is the stabbing of a picture?

Stabbing a picture is worse than stabbing a person. How on earth can anyone find that an arguable or outrageous statement?

Killing 100 people is worse than killing 20 people. How on earth can anyone find that an arguable or outrageous statement?

# ¿ Dec 25, 2015 03:34

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

The Insect Court posted:

That would require anti-Zionists actually acknowledging the existence of Israeli victims of terrorism.

Go do a search at nytimes.com or google news or any other major news site for "israel stabbing" articles from the past three months. Then tell me the only incident even worthy of mention in a thread titled "Of Israel and Palestine" involves the one in which a photograph is being stabbed.

It's just like the meltdown in the last I/P thread over the video of the Palestinian teenager shot while trying to kill Israelis. An ugly display, but one that seemed to provoke an endless outflow of spittle flicked rage from the same posters who reacted with spiteful indifference to the killings of Israelis. Hell, I'm not asking for equality here, just a simple plea that this thread not start with a pages long display of dehumanization directed against Israeli Jews. And yes, an intentional effort to ignore the existence of an entire class of (actual dead people) victims in favor of focusing exclusively on a (not alive or dead because a piece of paper) photograph counts.

This would be effective if you weren't a compulsive liar, and so insisted that this started on page 1. It would also be effective if you didn't ignore 120+ victims of terrorist violence, too.

# ¿ Dec 25, 2015 06:22

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Maoist Pussy posted:

Sometimes two different ethnic groups have really different ideas on how things should be and/or also they want to kill each other, so they can't coexist in a really tiny area.

Wow, all people of an ethnic group think alike, in your opinion? That's just what a honky would think.

# ¿ Dec 26, 2015 20:31

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

eSports Chaebol posted:

I'm not sure where to start with this

How about
1: unilaterally imposition is the opposite of democracy, even for elected leaders
2: Abbas and HAMAS aren't acting unilaterally in the first place, and when they try to make amends, it is considered casus belli by Israel
3: Abbas DOESN'T have as much power as he wished, he would be perfectly happy to actually pacify the West Bank if it didn't trheaten him

etc

He's saying that Israel is a democracy, and either because of the weakness of democracy or the perfidy of its citizens, is incapable of making the first steps toward peace. So, while there's quite a bit to unpack in those assumptions, it only works if he means what he says, rather than it being a way to avoid some horrific conclusions.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2016 03:35

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

gently caress You And Diebold posted:

Hamas was voted in though

Like I said, questioning his facts or assumptions won't mean much if this is just a way to put the blame on the Palestinians or declare that both sides have equal responsibility without any of the conclusions you'd derive from believing in that and observing the situation.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2016 03:47

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Dead Reckoning posted:

That's insane. You can't say, "hey, if Israel doesn't want their citizens deliberately targeted for murder, maybe they should stop angering people who murder civilians" and expect people to take it as a serious & moral argument. Hamas and the other factions that perpetuate attacks against Israeli civilians have agency too.

That's not at all how it works at all. Winning a war doesn't make the winning side morally responsible for the other side's war crimes.

So France was justified in the use of torture in the Algerian War of Independence, because the FLN could have stopped at any time and surrendered? I think that this line of thinking is one that leads to inevitable and total pacifism, which is an interesting but not particularly fruitful philosophy.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2016 05:36

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Dead Reckoning posted:

That doesn't have anything to do with deliberately targeting civilians though, unless you want to argue that all Israeli citizens can be justly killed because of their government's policies.
Even this really awful metaphor still doesn't justify your position, because randomly killing the families of officers from that department isn't moral.

There is not only nothing wrong with killing civilians because of their government's policies, there's nothing wrong with killing civilians because of a third government's policies, as the bombing of Caen shows. So, the only real issue here is whether the status of being a "state" grants one moral immunity from killing civilians or not, which is frankly an absurd question in the absence of a divinely-inspired morality.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2016 16:14

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

I'm always horrified by the continual belief that the actions of the people involved are what determines the justice of their cause. It's the root of all the emphasis on Palestinian misdeeds and the downplaying of Israeli actions as well, because the people who hold it have various reasons to avoid the conclusion that if Israel commits enough war crimes, it should be destroyed and all of its citizens with it, necessitating the belief that it's OK to burn people alive with white phosphorus because they're Palestinian. I urge such people to abandon their beliefs. Just because somebody does something morally reprehensible doesn't render them no longer human or worthy of moral consideration. Just because Hamas fires a rocket doesn't mean that it's acceptable to kill Palestinians for looking like they might have a knife.

# ¿ Jan 13, 2016 22:58

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

team overhead smash posted:

13 year old refugee girl shot dead trying to stab an Israeli security guard

Even stories devoid of specifics like this get to me quite a bit. I can imagine this girl being brought up her entire life in a tent refugee camp, under foreign occupation, and after an argument with the family snapping and going off to do something about it only to get gunned down accomplishing nothing and it's loving heartbreaking.

That 13-year-old girl was a terrorist, and considering her death "regrettable" or a "tragedy" or even "sad" is just plain antisemitic. Quite simply, if the Palestinian people simply committed themselves to pacifism, simply such that no Palestinian ever raised their simple hand to an Israeli, everything would simply work itself out, just as simply as with the Prague Spring.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2016 02:07

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

A lot of people getting close to violating thread rule #2 here.

# ¿ Feb 1, 2016 19:50

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

It seems we need another rule to keep this thread on track!

quote:

5. Please keep any discussion about the immigration of Jewish Ethiopians and their treatment by Israeli society and the Israeli government phrased solely via musical instrument metaphors.

# ¿ Feb 1, 2016 21:21

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Dabir posted:

So Israel sneakily popped mutes in the Ethiopians' trumpets?

Please. It was only the second-chair clarinets that put mutes in some of the Ethiopian trumpets, and then took them out again.

# ¿ Feb 1, 2016 21:59

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Ultramega posted:

You can't be serious. How do people like that even get into politics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Inhofe#Global_warming_a_.22hoax.22

# ¿ Feb 11, 2016 00:32

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

The Insect Court posted:

Yes, we all remember that time when those three black MPs were suspended from the parliament of apartheid South Africa, leaving black Africans in control of the third largest parliamentary bloc. Truly horrifying, do these Zionist fiends have any limits?

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.702639

There's no antisemitism in the United States of America, because Jewish Americans constitute fully one-half of the third-largest parliamentary bloc.

# ¿ Feb 11, 2016 03:45

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

The kind of views propagated by people such as The Insect Court, Kim Jong Il, etc. are in their own way even more fundamentally antisemitic. That is, the justification for Israel's treatment of Palestinians is via saying that the Palestinians are morally suspect. Thus, if Alfred Dreyfus actually had been a traitor, if someone had intended The Protocols of the Elders of Zion seriously, instead of it being a forgery- if those things were true, in the worldview they lay out through their posts, then antisemitism would be justified.

To contrast, I view racism to always be evil, regardless of whether someone considered to be of a particular race is immoral or not.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2016 03:01

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 10:45

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Kim Jong Il posted:

Of course I've never said this and you're deliberately lying and making stuff up. Everyone who disagrees with your fringe view is a racist, got it.

You consistently point out support for Hamas or other such perfidies of Palestinians in response to people saying that Israel's actions are unjustified, when you can be bothered to have a conversation instead of conducting a verbal hit-and-run. Maybe you are a singular failure at the art of communication, or maybe you feel the need to operate at arm's length and through posturing because you recognize your logic is faulty, bordering on monstrous, but aren't able to break free from it. I hope you can, someday. But regardless, the logic that results from defending Israel's treatment of Palestinians by citing Palestinian immorality is as I've described it, without some antisemitic nonsense propping Jews up as inherently superior or whatever.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2016 03:16

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