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Vegetable posted:China’s latest statement is supportive of the “Palestinian national cause” and criticizes Israel’s actions as going too far. I know there’s always a realpolitik explanation for these things, but this particular one is going over my head. I guess Israel = America, so the friend of my enemy is my enemy? I didn’t think China would support a sorta Middle Eastern analogue of Taiwanese independence. Considering the Chinese governments treatment of the Uyhgurs, it's probably just a vie for influence and not genuine concern for their wellbeing.
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Oct 15, 2023 06:40
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Kchama posted:
Can you give us any evidence that it was an IDF bomb.
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Oct 18, 2023 10:09
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at no point are you even considering that it could be an IDF bomb. Come on! "Oh well, it doesn't NEED to be a Qassam filled with hyper-liquid fuel despite being a solid-state rocket? Then hey, that means it can just be a Qassam!". You can really tell how at no point in your mind have you ever even thought for a nanosecond that it wasn't Hamas/PIJ.
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Main Paineframe posted:It's not impossible for blowing up the parking lot outside to kill a bunch of people. Gaza's hospitals were warning about being well over capacity days ago, with reports of "seriously injured people lining the corridors" and long lines outside due to all the beds being full and all the doctors being busy. Moreover, there were multiple reports of tens of thousands of unhurt people flocking to the hospitals because they have nowhere else to go and hope that the hospitals might be less likely to get bombed. Going out in a limb here to say that, based on the evidence that has come out, it’s impossible that over five hundred people died from that explosion. Maybe next time, people should take the claims of Hamas with a grain of salt and actually verify it before taking it at face value. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) ASIC v Danny Bro fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Oct 18, 2023 |
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Oct 18, 2023 22:50
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TGLT posted:some one should tell the world health organization That 471 number appears to come from the Gaza Health Ministry's claims. https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...w/104531138.cms Again, people are just reporting and repeating claims/allegations without independent verification, which is why we should wait until facts can be actually verified. fatelvis posted:In your expert opinion, how many people died? Given you clearly have a great deal of insight on the matter and you're a super big expert on this poo poo. Regardless of what evidence has been presented in this thread and verified in the news, you probably wouldn't believe it.
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Oct 18, 2023 23:36
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mannerup posted:Reason my responses has been disproportionately focused on Hamas is because it has been a controversial position in the thread argued ad nauseam over whether their actions are/were morally justified and whether specific atrocities actually occurred. If somebody comes in here attempting to morally justify the actions of Israel, I would challenge them on that. Speaking of the atrocities committed by Hamas, Israel's National Center for Forensic Medicine has been working hard on identifying the victims. Multiple articles have come out in recent days, with one from "the media line" showing some pretty NSFW pictures. I won't post those pictures here, but some commentary on its content includes the following: -Hands belonging to one of the victims killed by Hamas on October 7, 2023. The victim was bound at the wrists—as seen by marks that the bindings left behind—and then burned alive. -Charred remains and a CT scan of the remains show a parent and child who were bound together and burned alive by Hamas terrorists on Oct. 7. Two spinal columns—one of an adult and one of a child—can be seen in the scan. The pair were likely embracing as they burned. -“Many have gunshot wounds in their hands, showing they put their hands up to their faces in defense. Many were burned alive in their homes. … We know they were burned alive because there is soot in their trachea, their throats—meaning they were still breathing when set on fire.” It's important to note that the Center is claiming that forensic pathologists, anthropologists, radiologists from Israel, America, Switzerland and New Zealand have come in to assist efforts. Can dig deeper to confirm this if necessary.  https://themedialine.org/top-stories/evidence-on-display-at-israels-forensic-pathology-center-confirms-hamas-atrocities/ contains the pictures. Obviously, NSFW.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/17/hundreds-of-israeli-bodies-remain-unidentified-10-days-after-hamas-attack https://www.timesofisrael.com/foreign-media-given-unprecedented-access-to-forensic-institute-to-witness-atrocities/ (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Somebody fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Oct 21, 2023 |
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Oct 21, 2023 01:00
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Well, the US has decided to provide some big-boom distractions by bombing Yemen. Considering they're bombing targets of the Houthi's, who have attacked civilians and civilian ships (and were repeatedly warned not to), this response is entirely justified.
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Jan 12, 2024 06:23
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:The Houthis are operating under the responsibility to protect. They're being bombed for daring to attempt to disrupt an ongoing genocide but the allies of the terror state executing the genocide. This has nothing to do with "civilians" (or do Palestinians not count as civilians?). It's an unjust and deeply evil assault in service of a genocide. "This has nothing to do with civilians" who do you think have been manning the ships they've been targeting and kidnapping? Were they operating under the responsibility to protect when they were doing this?: https://www.arabnews.com/node/2435691/middle-east https://www.thenationalnews.com/gulf-news/2022/08/10/yemens-houthi-rebels-admit-kidnapping-more-than-2800-civilians-in-past-year/ https://www.arabnews.com/node/2301121/middle-east ASIC v Danny Bro fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 06:49
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Are there no Palestinian civilians? Do they need to be on a boat to be civilians? Of course there are Palestinian civilians. Can you at least accept that the Houthi's have been targeting civilians in their own country for kidnapping, torture, false imprisonment and murder, as well as civilians on civilian ships? These are not people who operate under a responsibility to protect.
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Jan 12, 2024 07:09
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DarklyDreaming posted:I do feel there's been an over-lionization of the Houthis and their actions in the past month. I also feel bombing Yemen was an unjustifiable escalation of the conflict that should have ended months ago. These are not mutually exclusive I agree that they're not mutually exclusive, though the targets that were hit in Yemen were Houthi targets. And to harp on again, they were warned repeatedly to cease attacks on civilian vessels, both in statements from governments and at the UN security council. Military responses for their actions against civilian vessels and crew are entirely their own responsibility. If they didn't want to be bombed, they should have not targeted those vessels. Hell, some of those vessels weren't even bound for Israeli ports as their end point! So I'm not entirely certain how their excuse of "being Israeli ships" could fly. Neurolimal posted:I would make the case that the same can apply to the Houthis: you don't have to approve of their antagonism towards Jewish Yemeni nor their methods of consolidating power, to approve of their decision to blockade Israel-affiliated ships under international Genocide Prevention acts, nor their resillience against Saudi and USA bombing. How does the Houthi's kidnapping sailors from ships fit into this? ASIC v Danny Bro fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 08:02
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piL posted:Is there a list of justifications for individual attacks? The Wikipedia articles dont always replicate claims. What is the link between Israel and the Maersk Hangzhou? This would probably be a good start: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...bc-5dff7a430000 Considering a fair few of them were neither connected to Israel or dropping/receiving cargo from an Israeli port, the Houthis need to do their homework better. Edit: for below response, we'd probably have to researching individual stories for each attack (the full story links are... crap all). At least now we've got the vessel names, the date of the attacks, port of departure, port of destination and some ownership details. From there, we can build in Houthi representative responses and reasons for their attacks, articles written at the time, and government responses. Second edit: actually, there's a few articles that don't link to the main one; they relate to the following vessels: -HMS Diamond -Galaxy Leader -Languedoc -USS Laboon -Swan Atlantic -MSC Clara -Unity Explorer -Maersk Gibraltar -Blaamanen -Palatium III -Sai Baba -Strinda -Ardmore Encounter -Uss Carney -Central Park -An unknown vessel -Chem Pluto -CMA CGM Symi Were the links not working depending on the browser we were using? Just note, some of those links are paywalled. ASIC v Danny Bro fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Jan 12, 2024 |
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Jan 12, 2024 08:29
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HazCat posted:They've completely halted all traffic to Israel's Eilat port while still allowing plenty of other traffic through, which was not the case before, so either they're doing something different or people with much more information and much more on the line than anyone in this thread believe that they're doing something different. They've been doing more than that. It's demonstrable that they've been attacking ships not linked to Israel, regardless if you believe they're doing something different. Considering their most recent gently caress-up was accidentally attacking a russian oil tanker, I question what sort of information they're receiving. Josef bugman posted:It's great how "they would have done damage and harmed more people, we just won't need to prove it" is unfalsifiable as an idea. I'm sorry, what? An armed group attacks ships with missiles - which is incredibly risky for the people on the receiving end of it, not even taking into account the damage caused to these ships - and we can't consider an outcome that could have been worse? We're aware that they've kidnapped sailors, right? Or does that not count?
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Jan 13, 2024 00:49
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PostNouveau posted:The Houthis have yet to kill anyone attacking a commercial ship? Everything up until that is fine, apparently.
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Jan 13, 2024 02:56
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PostNouveau posted:Have they injured anyone? Not certain - I haven't looked at all the reporting. We do know they've deprived the liberties of civilians on those ships by kidnapping them, which seems to be regularly ignored in this thread. Is the implication to your questions so long as there's nobody hurt, we can keep letting them fire rockets at ships? Do you understand why it's a bad idea to fire rockets at ships, and take their crew hostage? Can we agree that it's a bad idea to do so? Pentecoastal Elites posted:
It's a bad look when you say rocket attacks against a Turkish vessel - and the kidnapping of South Korean sailors - were not "serious moves", when by your own description they've launched strikingly similar attacks on Saudi vessels. ASIC v Danny Bro fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 03:33
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Google Jeb Bush posted:tbh I'd much rather have a solid and successful policy of "we will seize your ship and hold your crew in safety until our demands that you cannot plausibly satisfy are satisfied" than random bomb-throwing. Historically, piracy has also led to a particular response, for excellent global economy reasons, and it *is* pretty rude to the generally exploited and uninvolved sailors to kidnap them for X amount of time. I just don't accept that kidnapping is an acceptable action or policy, and struggle to understand how people - some in this thread - could find it acceptable or defensible. It requires us to place an incredible amount of trust into an organisation that is responsible for incredible brutality against their own people. Pentecoastal Elites posted:Could you please post some examples of profitable Houthi piracy that predates the israeli invasion? This is what I'm referring to. Attacking and capturing vessels does not show restraint. What would have been better is if they didn't launch any attacks against any vessel, at all. These are aggressive actions taken against civilians, which have been responded to appropriately. Let's be clear: -the actions of the Houthi's are not in service of ending a genocide; -the sailors have been kidnapped, not detained; -the Houthi's are not acting under a responsibility to protect. They are not the government of Yemen, they are deemed a terrorist organisation by their government (rightfully so), and because of their actions are being considered re-designated as a terrorist group by the White House. Something that would be more effective would be to: -stop launching attacks on civilian ships; -stop targetting their own civilians in war crimes; -stop the kidnap, false imprisonment, execution, use as human shields of their own civilians; -stop utilising child soldiers; You're putting a lot of trust in a brutal, horrible organisation to uphold the rule of law. PT6A posted:
2. The Houthi's are not good, by any metric. ASIC v Danny Bro fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 04:19
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Google Jeb Bush posted:There are almost no posters in this thread that think Israel is doing the right thing by kidnapping Palestinians for arbitrary reasons for arbitrary amounts of time, so as usual, it is the points of dispute that get discussed. When I first opened an account back in the early 2010s, I never expected to see people on this forum to be okay with groups taking hostages and the brutality that unfolded during it.
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Jan 13, 2024 04:38
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Stringent posted:Ok, could you walk me through this one? Because the Houthi media statements have been quite vehement in their demand for the end of the genocide in Gaza. To the point that after the most recent airstrikes they released a statement saying (heavy paraphrasing here) they're glad they're being bombed, and have been ashamed that while the people of Gaza are being bombed they aren't. I find it incredibly difficult to take at face value an org - whose flag contains "Death to Israel, A curse upon the Jews" - when they make claims about Israel or Jews. Probably not the answer you're looking for, but I just can't. 386-SX 25Mhz VGA posted:constantly harping on the arguable badness of any small act of resistance. lol. lmao, even.
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Jan 13, 2024 05:15
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Stringent posted:You find it incredibly difficult to take at face value an organization whose flag contains "Death to Israel, A curse upon the Jews" is attacking Israeli shipping as an act of solidarity with the Palestinians? Sure, I can go into it a bit more. I find it hard to accept, at face value, any claims or statements the Houthi's make about this conflict given the aforementioned flag, their actions against ships, but more importantly the brutality they've subjected their own people to; some stories I've linked, a UN security council report covering the Yemen war contains examples from both sides of the conflict. This is an organisation that is a blight on its own people, and treats them horrendously. I find their claims of helping other people in acts of solidarity to be laughable. In terms of the ships they've attacked, many of them have no link to Israel, which leads me to several conclusions: a) they’re using the Israeli Gaza conflict as an excuse for any attack, in a continuation of attacks on ships prior to the war; b) given they’ve targeted non Israeli ships, it leads me to believe they don’t care for which ships they are attacking (considering they attacked a Russian oil tanker not 24 hours ago, and multiple non Israeli linked ships in the past few months, I'm going to assume this is the case); and c) given their continued attacks against ships in the face of warnings, they are clearly exacerbating these situations and are not looking for a peaceful resolution, which is almost entirely up to them to pursue. And in terms of the flag; I honestly think it speaks for itself.
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Jan 13, 2024 06:16
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Vernii posted:You do realize that they were at war with Saudi Arabia from 2015 to a cease fire in 2022 right? A Turkish ship getting attacked leaving a Saudi port in a war zone is an easy mistake, not piracy. Likewise, briefly detaining two South Korean ships and then releasing them is also not piracy. Both actions actually conform to expected behaviors by belligerents. In fact, compared to the West's own history of warfare involving freight shipping, its very restrained. Is that what we are calling attacks on civilians now? Easy mistakes? Holy loving poo poo. “Expected behaviour of belligerents” does not mean we have to accept them launching attacks against civilians. Just loving kill me lol.
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Jan 13, 2024 09:06
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Vernii posted:I have some really bad news for you about the entire history of naval warfare and accepted practices. poo poo, even the Israeli excuse for shooting up the USS Liberty and killing 34 American sailors was that they thought it was an Egyptian freighter. Hey, I’m the one here who is saying targeting civilians and civilian ships is bad and apparently we have people who think otherwise. Incompetence in mid-identifying ships isn’t an excuse here.
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Jan 13, 2024 09:21
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knox_harrington posted:As we can see the list does not include firing missiles at civilian shipping and uninvolved countries warships. "For the high crime of being 20% owned by an Israeli billionaire, I sentence you and your ship to be fired upon."
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Jan 13, 2024 09:36
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Beaucoup Cuckoo posted:I rarely post on these lovely forums - just wanted to pop in and say that over the past few days of reading this thread I've been pretty disgusted by those of you who keep deflecting away from Israel's genocide. Considering the deflection that has gone on for the October 7 attacks in this thread, the feeling is mutual.
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Jan 13, 2024 10:00
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pumpinglemma posted:How many Palestinian civilians have to be murdered before October 7 stops being an acceptable justification, in your mind? Please give your answer in the form of a ratio of dead Palestinian civilians to dead Israeli civilians. Like a moth to a flame, really. How many victims of October 7 did you think were justifiable targets? ASIC v Danny Bro fucked around with this message at 10:56 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 10:53
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pumpinglemma posted:You see, this is an easy question: only the serving IDF personnel, which if I remember correctly were roughly 300 of them. Now it’s your turn to answer my question. Does that include the ones who were captured, unarmed, then executed?
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Jan 13, 2024 11:39
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HazCat posted:Oh hey, I know this one! Nah, it's the video where the soldiers are on their knees, in a room, then the video cuts and shows them dead on the floor. I know you have it somewhere.
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Jan 13, 2024 11:56
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pumpinglemma posted:If that is true, then no it doesn’t. You still haven’t answered my question, so I’ll repeat it. How many Palestinian civilians have to be murdered before October 7 stops being an acceptable justification, in your mind? Please give your answer in the form of a ratio of dead Palestinian civilians to dead Israeli civilians. 0. If you honestly think people here are celebrating Palestinian civilian deaths, you're wrong. Any criticism I have is limited to the ones engaging in armed acts of aggression against civilians or soldiers who have been unarmed. I've been pretty consistent with that. ASIC v Danny Bro fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 12:11
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Esran posted:You claim to care about Palestinians, but you seem to spend all your time focusing on the crimes of Hamas and the Houthis, and ignoring the much larger and on-going crime of genocide, and the preceding decades of oppression. Literally every single post of yours in this thread has been criticism of the enemies of Israel, or trying to sow doubt about the crimes of Israel. There's a lot to discuss in this post, but I wanted to focus on these things specifically. Yes, I'm focusing on the crimes of Hamas, and recently the Houthi's. Because regardless of the crimes Israel are committing, both Hamas and the Houthi's they've committed crimes against civilians, and Hamas specifically is responsible for the start of this conflict. Hamas are the ones who attacked civilians on October 7, they're the ones who have kidnapped civilians - and still have a number of them -, and they're the ones who sent thousands of rockets into Israel against civilian targets in an act of war. And "sowing doubt about the crimes of Israel" -are you loving listening to yourself? Did you not see all the wild speculation going on in this thread during the Al Ahli Hospital explosion? Because people here had no idea as to what exactly happened - and by who - , and were baying for blood after 500 people were claimed to have been killed by Israel? This happened worldwide, for weeks on end. And, after all their investigations were complete, the HRW found that it was likely to be a rocket used by armed groups in Gaza. And based on the initial assumption that it was an Israeli weapon, the summit between Biden and Arab leaders was called off. So yes, I'm pretty disappointed that we lost the opportunity to end the conflict, and instead have the situation where it is now, because that would have been probably the best chance to get an early ceasefire after their Gaza invasion. So get off your high horse. Stringent posted:What would your ideal Israeli response to October 7 look like? Are you happy with the Israeli response to date? pumpinglemma posted:You, specifically, responded to a post criticising those deflecting from Israel's ongoing genocide by immediately turning to October 7th in a textbook example of the behaviour being criticised. ASIC v Danny Bro fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Jan 13, 2024 |
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Jan 13, 2024 13:53
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