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ummel posted:Surely there's better examples to keep in mind when discussing the morality of the Palestinian resistance than a tiktok video of a soldier talking poo poo. Sorry but as someone who works with American soldiers all day, soldiers shouldn’t have cell phones in combat in the first place. Not only can they be used to triangulate your location, someone will always take a photo or do a TikTok dance in front of a sensitive item. They will wander up on roofs, go outside bunkers, or walk in front of giant radars while they are on trying to get cell phone service. This is all easily solved by having a unit cell phone box and simply restricting use. That all being said, the inability of the IDF to stop the constant stream of these videos from coming out shows not only weak discipline in an awful lot of their ground units, but also a general acceptance of the attitudes displayed by these soldiers. I don’t believe for a second that their chain of command hasn’t seen these posts, that’s certainly not how it works in the US. It’s exactly the same as some shithead making racist morale patches or the like; if they’re wearing it, someone in change of them saw it and didn’t make them take it off. Usually because that person also thought it was funny. It’s a bigger problem than “the boys talking poo poo”” or whatever handwavy excuse people want to come up with.
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Jan 6, 2024 13:11
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The people in those videos aren’t random people, they’re often members of the military. As I said in my previous post, the sheer volume of material suggests a systemic issue. These are the people responsible for directing engagements on the ground. They quite literally decide who lives and who dies. Keep in mind those videos are shot at the direct expense of lethality as well. You could use terms like “unprofessional” but it honestly downplays the scope of the problem. There is your morality right there. To clarify, this is not an argument that killing civilians on 10/7 was somehow justified. It’s to say that the conduct of an army is absolutely relevant to discussions about the morality of a given conflict. It’s why people are in here discussing the actions of Hamas in the first place. not a value-add fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Jan 6, 2024 |
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Jan 6, 2024 13:50
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Don’t you think they’re connected though? I feel like you can draw a direct line from leaders allowing and condoning the display of media that contains racist and criminal content and the kind of horrific abuses that bring shame on an entire country.
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Jan 6, 2024 15:43
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Unfortunately I think from a strategic standpoint the 10/7 attacks were generally successful. Other posters have pointed this out, but Hamas does not seem to view the Israeli left as a force that can provide meaningful leverage for their goals so saying “well they really blew it by burning that bridge!” sort of misses the forest for the trees. You could wind back the clock and try to find points where things could have gone different. The assassination of Rabin is probably one such moment, and maybe a more moderate Palestinian government could have risen and a more even peace deal could have been struck, but would the Israeli side ever have been able to gather up enough support to stop the settlements and give what they clearly see as territorial concessions? It honestly feels like trying to hold back the tide. The whole thing is sad and I think the only real solution is for the US to pressure Israel to stop. Honestly we should’ve applied that pressure before all this unfolded. To put this more succinctly, the only party in all of this with any real leverage over Israel is the US. I won’t pretend to know what the general mood is across the Middle East, but Israel’s actions in Gaza are creating a ton of diplomatic and military headaches for the US right now to say the least. Hamas likely orchestrated the attack with this in mind, and to put the gulf countries in a tough spot too if they continue to normalize relations. It’s cruel logic but it makes sense. not a value-add fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Jan 6, 2024 |
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Jan 6, 2024 18:44
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Main Paineframe posted:
I mean I wish I was six thousand miles away but that is not the case. Anyway, I don’t think you need to pick one over the other, you can consider both. And besides, it’s not like TikToks have some magic bubble around them full of vape juice and eggplant emojis that makes them less historically relevant than say, a letter or a journal. I want to reiterate a point I made earlier though: for combat troops in an environment like Gaza a lot has to go wrong for a stupid TikTok to ever reach the internet. The soldier has to take his hands off his weapon, look down at his phone which shouldn’t be on in the first place, shoot the stupid video, then post it assuming he even has service and isn’t wandering around aimlessly trying to get more bars. Every single person in his team, if not his squad, is seeing him do this. Instead of fighting/pulling security/searching rooms/cleaning weapons/maybe sleeping a tiny bit he is making stupid videos. And they let it slide or sometimes even join in. It’s sloppy as gently caress and literally prioritizes acting like a douche over your own life.
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Jan 7, 2024 00:21
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Fuligin posted:This is wildly naive lol I don’t think it’s that crazy, this is word-for-word what my parents believe. Of course this logic falls apart under any kind of critical examination but most people just don’t think that deeply about their own beliefs. The bar should probably be higher for such an important diplomat. You could look at some of the other gaffes Blinken made over the past few months and infer that he is somewhat out of touch.
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Jan 8, 2024 07:56
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Yeah that’s exactly my point. It’s boomer logic but any professional diplomat or intelligence guy should be more informed and self aware. I’m not a mind reader either but ineffectual statements along with making public appearances in a plate carrier etc. comes across as out of touch. e: you don’t have to apologize! I’m sorry my post wasn’t more clear. not a value-add fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Jan 8, 2024 |
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Jan 8, 2024 08:19
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On the topic of journalists, how come Israel doesn’t do embedded journalists? Speaking of boomer logic, people seemed to love photos that came from the embedded photographers in Iraq. Especially that one of the marine that got shot inside the house and came out with blood all over his pants holding a pistol. Lots of look at how hard our boys are fighting god bless the usa sentiment and you would think Israel would jump at the opportunity to produce the same. I gotta be honest, I think there’s more to them shooting all the journalists than just how urban combat is. If you buy the whole “we are trying our best to protect civilians and not to just shoot everything that moves but it’s just too hard” argument then yeah I guess you can make the same assumption about all the journalists. But I have a hard time believing either one. not a value-add fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Jan 8, 2024 |
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Jan 8, 2024 15:47
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Hmm that’s an interesting thought. It kind of runs in parallel to the issue of being casualty-averse among the actual military personnel as well. I’m not very well versed on what the various Iraqi insurgent groups were armed with. Everything I have is from personal accounts but they definitely faced off against Dushkas, RPGs, and some very nasty IEDs. It was bad enough that you’d be stupid to go out without support from a heavier vehicle because they could just roast the humvees. It would be interesting to see a more academic breakdown. What does seem different to me is the amount of dismounted infantry. Does Israel just not have the numbers? They’re conspicuously absent in most of the videos I’ve seen. The guys I’ve talked to on the US side fought backed up by Abrams and Brads. The Israelis seem to almost do the opposite.
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Jan 8, 2024 16:16
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Oh those are actually really good examples. I’ve seen some of those videos but I assumed they came from whatever the IDFs equivalent of a public affairs officer was, not an nominally independent media person because they seemed so hamfisted. I wonder why they don’t just photograph soldiers and marines doing soldier things like setting up behind cover, sleeping in a big pile, being dirty, being sweaty, trying to flip off the camera, there’s lots of material to work with.
not a value-add fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Jan 8, 2024 |
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Jan 8, 2024 17:46
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That doesn’t seem like it will go over very well. I’m sure the “kill ‘em all” crowd will like it but good luck with anyone on the fence.
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Jan 9, 2024 04:58
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I think Israel is burning more good will than people think. Anecdotal but most of the gen z people I know, almost all of whom are conservative, basically have a constant stream rolling of tik toks in which the IDF beats up old ladies and randomly shoots at people. They have all decided that Israel is the bad guy here, and good luck ever winning them back. I think the political winds could change in a big way in a decade.
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Jan 25, 2024 19:59
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I agree with the other posters that Israel and Palestine have different ideas about winning and losing. Ever since this started the Israeli side seems convinced that this is an existential war. This claim never made a lot of practical sense to me since Hamas is basically a cartel or gang in comparison to other neighbors like Hezbollah. But I think that validates what a lot of people in here are saying, that if Israel feels like it cannot completely crush its perceived enemies it will trigger some kind of existential crisis. How exactly that plays out I have no idea. Also yeah I think the Palestinians absolutely have PTSD. It’s probably another thing they just live with, because what else are they going to do? It’s not like they can go see a fancy psychiatrist or anything like that. not a value-add fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Jan 25, 2024 |
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Jan 25, 2024 22:00
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I don’t think a return to the old status quo is possible, because I think a lot of Israelis will never “feel safe” unless Hamas is removed, whatever that means. There will never not be militants in Gaza and any rational person can see that. They’ve psychologically backed themselves into a strategic corner. Not to mention, the current state of affairs in the Middle East is crumbling so I doubt that running around Gaza for over a year will be possible without some other kind of major event occurring, and that will change the whole dynamic again. If the US is pushed out of Iraq, I wonder how that will change its relationship to Israel.
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Jan 25, 2024 22:19
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I think FNLN can be a little florid at times: what they're describing shouldn't be recognized as PTSD. Acknowledging I might be stepping on toes here I'd call it something more like combat fatigue. This is not an existential fight for the israelis, no matter how often they try to pretend like it is, and they know it. It is, however, actually one for the Palestinians. Their trauma is infinitely more horrific and painful than whatever Pizza Disco manager has to sit in a Merkava and worry about red triangles, but the former will fight to the absolute limits of their mind and body and the latter will not. Like the US in Vietnam, if it really does go on for as long as Nethanyahu wants we'll absolutely see the same sorts of dissent and israeli COs getting fragged. Yeah I agree, I am skeptical about the willingness of of most Israelis to live in bombed out areas, beyond maybe the crazy settlers. The Palestinians tolerate much worse conditions. Not that they have any choice though. PTSD is tricky, I’ve seen and heard of people get it from all sorts of stuff and I’m not sure combat fatigue is a very clear distinction. I think its correlation to the overall ideological big picture of a war is kind of dubious on both ends outside of some specific instances of moral injury. not a value-add fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Jan 25, 2024 |
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Jan 25, 2024 22:43
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In terms of past comparisons, maybe the Republican Party in the US is a good place to look. Those guys were all rah rah wave the flag and still are, but their general disillusionment has pushed a lot of them into what used to be weird fringe ideologies. Speaking on a personal level, none of them have actually lost their taste for violence and America beating up on other countries. If anything it’s gotten worse. But they also seem to hate their own party. Anyway this is a long winded way of saying I think the future of Israeli politics is going to be filled with a lot of impotent rage, lashing out, conspiracy theories, and people sitting around being mad.
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Jan 26, 2024 05:05
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What happens if Israel doesn’t comply with any of the measures? It seems like the genocidal rhetoric part of that will be another slam dunk case since Ben-Gvir immediately started posting childish and violent tweets after the news broke.
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Jan 26, 2024 16:27
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On the whole boat thing, its fine to scrutinize the sincerity of the Houthis based on what boats they hit, but it’s a pretty good check on your own internal biases if you’re not applying the same rationale to other military operations with very high CDEs which is objectively worse than damaging boats. I think it’s entirely possible that the Houthis are fully sincere, and they also just don’t really care that much when their intel is off the mark. That doesn’t seem particularly crazy to me. Also as someone else pointed out, what is the piracy part of this supposed to be? Aren’t you supposed to get money from piracy? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 5, 2024 09:54
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Staluigi posted:you're attempting to get money from piracy, but nothing stops a campaign of opportunistic piracy from turning up dismal returns I just don’t think this really passes the sniff test. Nobody fires a cruise missile in some boneheaded attempt to do what, steal shipping containers? It just defies logic. What’s so crazy about an attempt to smash up a bunch of Israeli boats? Hell I’ve seen Americans do the exact same thing. Hit the wrong thing? Well sometimes you get bad intel and they were probably up to no good anyway!
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Feb 5, 2024 18:40
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DeadlyMuffin posted:The difference between "as a society they absolutely wanted them dead" and "IDF is indiscriminately shooting everything that moves" is that the later is a statement about how the military is conducting itself, and the former is a blanket statement about all of Israeli society. The charred bodies of the WCK workers were photographed and those photos were uploaded to yet another Israeli snuff telegram channel. I don’t want to post them here because it’s gore, but the comments are disgusting. I think there is a very high percentage of Israelis that will violently lash out at anything seen as “soft on the Palestinians” and that includes every single aid worker in the area celebrity-affiliated or not. The percent of people in the military with this view is likely even higher. Speaking from experience, these kinds of gross attitudes are always present in some proportion of your soldiers. If it metastasizes into the leadership you are done. “Shooting anything that moves” is far too charitable and makes it sound like some kind of defensive reflex, a more accurate description is gleeful killing. They wanted those workers dead and they thought they could get away with it. not a value-add fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Apr 9, 2024 |
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Apr 9, 2024 08:03
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I'm surprised you think my interpretation is charitable - I am attributing the attack to the IDF being systematically indiscriminate in its targeting, linking this to the incident where they shot 3 of their own escaped hostages. Your interpretation is more damning to the individuals involved, but if your position is that this attack was due to "gross attitudes [that] are always present in some proportion of your soldiers" then that's surely letting the wider culture of the IDF and Israel's political leadership off the hook - it's actually fairly close to the Israeli line that the strike was purely a failing of the officers involved and that all they need to do is punish them. I’ll elaborate: I think the indiscriminate targeting language covers up what really happens in a majority of incidents like these where the person pulling the trigger is not under any kind of imminent threat. This isn’t some guy putting the wrong coordinates in a spreadsheet or drawing circles around too many buildings, or anything else that could reasonably fall under an administrative mistake because that not how the approval process really works. Any airframe in particular is going to have a fairly long kill chain and strike approval process. Given the pictures of the event, and the completely clean hole punched in the roof of at least one of the targeted WCK vehicles, I’d bet good money that the munitions used in this particular strike had kinetic warheads. This means they don’t blow up. It’s an assassination weapon, the most famous American version is the Hellfire R9X which also features six fold out blades. This is a pretty unusual loadout, and using it three times on three successive vehicles, especially given the sheer number of people involved in approving air strikes, is not a mistake. But back to the kill chain. The person pulling the trigger is not the person making the engagement decision. It takes someone looking at the situation, ignoring the fact that their orders are going to break the law because “everyone who runs is a viet-cong,” or whatever variety of self-justifying murderous logic is relevant to the current conflict, and proceeding anyway. Calling it a targeting mistake hides its ugly nature behind sanitized language. This is where the cultural part comes in, and why anyone gaining more and more responsibility as they climb the ranks needs to proactively remove that kind of thinking, excuse making, and criminality from their formation. I don’t think it’s an indictment of the IDF that violent, immoral, racist, and so on types of people are fed into the system. I think this is inevitable, especially in a draft army, and ignoring it can leave you unprepared to deal with it appropriately. The problem with the IDF is how it processes these people, and instead of stamping these ideas out they have been allowed to fester and infect the mechanisms and positions that are supposed to lead and control their troops. It’s the same type of thing you might ask yourself when a corporate page posts something idiotically offensive; don’t they realize what a stupid idea this is? Don’t they think it will hurt their businesses? The answer here and there is simple: the supervisor thought it was funny too. A good example of the system working correctly is when people like Clint Lorance get 20 years in prison, not an administrative slap on the wrist. Which brings up a final point, that the IDF has not released any information on if the responsible officers were simply reassigned, as opposed from removed from the military or facing any sort of legal punishment. Personally, I doubt they’re facing anything like a courts martial or whatever the IDF equivalent is, if only because in my experience when real consequences start to come in the top brass immediately tries to pin the whole thing on some PV2. not a value-add fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Apr 9, 2024 |
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Apr 9, 2024 13:06
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VitalSigns posted:But yeah, also humans are not necessarily rational especially in wartime. It wasn't logical to build pyramids of naked Iraqis at Abu-Ghraib, but well... I think it’s hard for people to picture all the nasty comments and hooting and hollering that can go on behind the scenes in a rotten unit, and then connect the dots to see that all the clinical language and passive voice allows people who really really suck to maintain a facade of professionalism that they don’t deserve. It’s just providing cover for a person that needs to be punished and fired. Maybe a more relatable analogy would be the guy who cheers when protestors get run over by a truck on the news. Then you check his social media and he’s got posts about god’s wrath and pancake protestors all over his feed. I wouldn’t believe anything along the lines of oh my foot slipped if there’s some incident with someone like that, who also happens to have a history of running over people himself. It’s just very credulous.
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Apr 9, 2024 14:32
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Adenoid Dan posted:Thanks to that 972 article we have confirmation that they are intentionally targeting people identified by their lavender system at home with their families using another system they named "where's daddy." Every time you saw a report of an entire family killed to the last member, that was why. They don't even know why they were targets, just that 1. The computer gave them a score above a cut-off and 2. The target was confirmed to be male (the only human involved step). The Where’s Daddy system also seems almost tailor made to kill every single hostage on purpose, and I don’t know how you wouldn’t have a hey wait a minute moment as an intel analyst or commander. It really seems like they just don’t care.
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Apr 10, 2024 07:59
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I don’t understand how someone could join the armed forces of whatever nation they grew up in and not care about protecting citizens from harm. Imagine your parents getting kidnapped and instead of using intel for a rescue attempt your “defense force” uses the grid to incinerate them, all so they could kill a few extra five year olds sheltering in the basement. The conduct of the IDF is just so far gone from anything I’ve ever seen. America should’ve pulled the plug on this poo poo long ago.
not a value-add fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Apr 10, 2024 |
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Apr 10, 2024 15:34
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I haven’t seen this posted yet, MSF has a complied a detailed timeline of what went on at Nasser hospital. Besides the general destruction, the IDF sends a Palestinian prisoner dressed in white coveralls inside to deliver a message, and then executes him after they’re done using him. https://msf.org.uk/article/explained-how-israeli-army-attacked-gazas-nasser-hospital The videos in the article don’t auto play, but if you watch them all there are some serious injuries and dead bodies as a warning.
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Apr 10, 2024 20:56
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For what it’s worth, I’ve never once heard the whole “Houthis are just in it for the money!!” take outside of this forum and the literal /r/neoliberal subreddit. A significant portion of people I work with are explicitly pro-Israel and even they don’t think there’s some sneaky profit motive behind hitting a container ship with a cruise missile. It’s hard for me to see it as anything other than straight copium. I gotta say also, that specific idea falls right into the same blind spot that a lot of my well educated peers seem to sometimes have; They really can’t wrap their minds around the fact that someone might be extremely motivated by ideology and bigger visions, both good and bad, instead of laserfocused on the smaller things in life like career prestige, sending the kids to the right schools, house size, etc. I think you could draw a direct line here from this kind of thinking and the failures of sloppy American nation building projects, complete with everyone’s apparent surprise when McDonald’s and football didn’t just pop out of the ground after the Abrams and Brads rolled through. And that was of course immediately followed by a dismissal of the Middle East as “just being full of violent people” instead of actual self reflection, but I digress…
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Apr 12, 2024 19:18
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Ha iron dome is a SHORAD system, it was never stopping anything you’re seeing on those videos.
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Apr 14, 2024 08:24
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Charliegrs posted:Targets can be things, and targets can be people. When a warplane bombs an ammunition factory for example, the building itself is the target. The destruction of the building is the goal. When a warplane wants to kill some high ranking military officials unless they are out in the open then they are going to be in a building which is what gets bombed. In both cases a building was destroyed, but in the latter example the goal was to kill the enemy military officials. Alternatively, they could have killed those particular IRGC members anywhere, but waited until they were inside a consulate to kill as many staffers as possible and bomb a diplomatic building on purpose. They did this because they knew people online would come out of the woodwork with emotionally pacifying but completely ridiculous arguments such as “actually they were trying to shoot through the building not at the building” instead of questioning why the Israeli government is trying to start additional fights with its neighbors. It’s a silly rhetorical game to play. More generally, this kind of extreme rationalizing will degrade your ability to objectively assess the potential consequences of what Israel is doing. And finally just to make it crystal clear, the collateral damage assessment, aka exactly how many innocent people you’re about to mulch, is part of mission planning every single time. not a value-add fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Apr 15, 2024 |
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Apr 15, 2024 09:27
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I think it’s a risk/reward thing. It’s definitely taken the focus off Gaza, but the main thing bringing that into focus was the WCK murders, which I hate to say it but might have fallen off the news anyway. I’m not sure if what eventually broke the camels back there was the number of IRGC members that have been killed plus the consulate, the consulate alone, or general timing and being seen as a pushover while the slayings of muslims in Gaza were going on. I think the consulate attack was intentionally provocative by Israel and that kind of intent makes it much worse and necessitates a response. Irans big gamble is that they have actually deterred Israel. And that has to do with not only the strike itself but how everyone else reacts. I don’t think Americas tepid reply about defending but not attacking is going to be much of a deterrent. I think also that this might be Russia’s big chance to back up an ally and play the role of a serious statesman and superpower, so they might throw their chips on the table. Oh also I agree that the rift between Biden and bibi is made up. At the very least, the worst it will ever be is a “hmmm okay” instead of a “yes!” and the Israelis know it. That’s why the whole we won’t help you fight Iran thing isn’t effective. This situation is in many ways a failure of American diplomacy. not a value-add fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 10:24
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Bar Ran Dun where did you see Israeli air defense components? Everything I’ve ever worked with is Raytheon. Given the sensitivity of those systems as you move into higher tiers and what happened to things like the Harop it seems stupid to allow foreign production of any parts, especially electronic components. I’m trying to google it and can’t find anything.
not a value-add fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Apr 28, 2024 |
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Apr 28, 2024 20:50
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Things like arrow 3 that they just sold the Germans are cooperative ventures is my understanding. I know they need our approval to sell them. The MDA has some joint international ventures that the U.S. has some control over, but using Arrow as an example it’s not actually fielded by the US, so I’m not sold on the idea that these programs are useful as leverage. If anything, I think it would be the other way around. The harpy/harop affair lead to Israel’s temporary suspension from some joint development, so there’s historical precedent for America very clearly holding the reins on how these run. A US stack will typically involve some mix of C-RAM, Coyote, PATRIOT, THAAD, naval systems, etc. And the defensive counter air of course. No arrow or iron dome or anything like that because we already have high altitude systems and in the case of iron dome nobody needs counter mortar area defense.
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Apr 29, 2024 00:51
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It was. The Harops predecessor, the Harpy, was sold to China and has been attracting attention from security analysts ever since because it’s basically the lawnmower drones being currently used in the Middle East but with a radar seeker. When Israel refused to pull them all back ten years later America got upset and kicked them out of the F-35 program.
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Apr 29, 2024 01:29
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Herstory Begins Now posted:
Like I said on the last page this is totally backwards. Israel is reliant on the U.S. for most of its air defense systems, not the other way around.
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Apr 29, 2024 11:46
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projecthalaxy posted:It seems they may be at least a popular doohickey purveyor as since the "current conflict" started, in addition to 500M from the US, the firm has received 600M in orders from Australia, 400M from the EU, and 400M from "an Asia Pacific nation", though that last was for drones, not night vision. Elbit America is totally run by Americans and all of their NVG stuff is just a Harris rebrand. I’m not going to go digging through my arms room right now to win an internet argument but I’ve never seen an elbit branded optic in the wild, and the older junky stuff like the pvs 14 is made by multiple companies at this point. I think people in this thread are wildly overblowing the Israeli government’s ability to affect any of this stuff. I’m happy to be proven wrong, but you’d have to be real dumb to allow a foreign company, especially one with a reputation for whiny agressive implementation of backdoors, to be the exclusive manufacturer of a C2 system like a JBCP, a fancy optic with a HUD, or anything that integrates into it.
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Apr 29, 2024 14:47
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The business units for a lot of these things get traded around, depending on who does the acquisition they become little Americanized subsidiaries to prevent technology transfer is the long and short of it. The products, at least what you see down in a line unit, don’t really change. Sometimes it’s just having a certain number of Americans with clearances on the board, sometimes it’s completely walled off with a whole separate company. I don’t know the intricacies of what requirements have to be met, but I’d be pretty surprised if the US government didn’t immediately just force a sale if the Israeli/Italian/French/Germans tried to pull some shenanigans and cancel a contract or whatever. For the bigger stuff like ADA systems there’s a lot of joint development. Sometimes you’ll have a situation where a large purchase of systems by a specific nation will fund the development of a fun feature of an existing system, but it’s still the US controlling everything. Honestly I can’t think of a single joint developed and foreign manufactured system that the US actually fields for air defense right now. Israel’s entire AMD spectrum was joint developed by the US, but we don’t procure any of it beyond test battery amounts. not a value-add fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Apr 29, 2024 |
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Apr 29, 2024 15:45
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You really missed out on the PVS-7s for the full zero depth perception ankle breaking falling in random holes experience.
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Apr 29, 2024 15:59
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